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Old 05-08-2020, 08:44 PM   #1
cvicky
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Default oil with out zink

some say youneed to add oil with zink in 50-60s' engines others say no

so far ive been getting away with bargain brand multy grade 10w30

am I looking for trouble
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Old 05-08-2020, 09:01 PM   #2
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Default Re: oil with out zink

Every body has a different opinion about this. I heard from a noted Yblock engine builder that any oil with a 30 weight or greater has enough zinc in it for Y blocks and I would assume flatheads. So I 10/30, 10/40, 20/50 should be sufficient without an additive. 60's oil had less ZDDP (zinc blend) that most of the oils noted above. He uses Valvoline 10/30 or 10/40 conventional in all his builds


But as I said, every one has a different opinion on this.
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Old 05-08-2020, 09:21 PM   #3
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Default Re: oil with out zink

I'm on the Zinc side of the fence.
I was using an older Rotella 10/40 oil but switched to Valvoline VR1 Racing/High Zinc 20/50
~High performance formula for flat tappet engines~

"am I looking for trouble"
Valve train wear may or may not take a while. How many miles do you drive it a year? Some off-shore sourced parts (valve adjusting screws) can fail in a few weeks no matter which oil is used.

50's, 60's & some 70's motor oil used to contain zinc (& phosphorus) to help reduce wear at the high stress pressure points in the valve trains of older engines. But with the advent of unleaded fuel, catalytic converters, hydraulic and roller lifters... the zinc & phosphorus wasn't as needed and it contaminated emission equipment... so it was removed.

I think of high Zinc oil as insurance. Might never need it or know that I did, but I don't want the cam to go flat either.

More info at this link... https://www.ctci.org/engine-oil/
.

Last edited by dmsfrr; 05-15-2020 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 05-09-2020, 12:05 AM   #4
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Default Re: oil with out zink

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmsfrr View Post
I'm on the Zinc side of the fence.
I was using an older Rotella 10/40 oil but switched to Valvoline VR1 Racing/High Zinc 20/50
High performance formula for flat tappet engines

"am I looking for trouble"
Valve train wear may or may not take a while. How many miles do you drive it a year? Some off-shore sourced parts (valve adjusting screws) can fail in a few weeks no matter which oil is used.

50's, 60's & some 70's motor oil used to contain zinc (& phosphorus) to help reduce wear at the high stress pressure points in the valve trains of older engines. But with the advent of unleaded fuel, catalytic converters, hydraulic and roller lifters... the zinc & phosphorus wasn't as needed and it contaminated emission equipment... so it was removed.

I think of high Zinc oil as insurance. Might never need it or know that I did, but I don't want the cam to go flat either.

More info at this link... https://www.ctci.org/engine-oil/
.


I am with you on this. I use Valvoline VR1 also in my avatar 302. One oil change a year won't break the bank!!
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Old 05-09-2020, 02:21 AM   #5
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Default Re: oil with out zink

For an older engine back when 30WT was the go to oil you might want to think Lucas Plus, a lot of the cheap oils today have very little zddp so as to satisfy newer emission standards. https://lucasoil.com/pdf/Zinc_Values_MotorcycleOil.pdf
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Old 05-09-2020, 07:06 AM   #6
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Default Re: oil with out zink

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The ZDDP was not completely removed. It was just reduced. The higher performance engines of the late 50s through the early 70s needed 1200 PPM of ZDDP for better longevity of flat tappet valve train components. The first reduction brought the levels down to 1000 PPM and further reductions reduced it to 800 PPM so it's still in there but at a reduced amount.
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Old 05-09-2020, 08:20 AM   #7
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Default Re: oil with out zink

I use Lucas Hotrod and Classic. I would rather be safe then sorry.
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Old 05-09-2020, 08:18 PM   #8
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Default Re: oil with out zink

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvicky View Post
some say youneed to add oil with zink in 50-60s' engines others say no

so far ive been getting away with bargain brand multy grade 10w30

am I looking for trouble



You're doing great. There is enough zinc in the oii you're using. One requirement for oil to meet new standards is that it be backward compatible to meet previous standards. So no need to worry unless you have a high zoot race engine with aftermarket extreme pressure valve springs.
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Old 05-10-2020, 04:55 PM   #9
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Default Re: oil with out zink

Todays Valvoline premium blue 15W-40 deisel oil has 1270ppm zinc. I've been using it for many years. My 292 has a zillion miles on it and still runs great.
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Old 05-10-2020, 07:33 PM   #10
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Default Re: oil with out zink

You might want to look at this discussion about oil


http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic151765.aspx
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Old 05-14-2020, 10:58 PM   #11
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Default Re: oil with out zink

I agree with dmsfrr, I use zinc in my Y-block with 10-30. I figure that it is cheap insurance. $15 every 3000 miles is not going to break me! I add it with every oil change.
I also used zinc in my '81 SBF 302 with Mobil 1 Synthetic 10-30. added the zinc every filter change(3K mi) , changed oil every year and we drove the car, as I remember about
7-8K miles a year.
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Old 05-15-2020, 09:39 AM   #12
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Default Re: oil with out zink

Anything more than 1200 ppm starts to become detrimental to the engine parts. This was where the API set the limits for good reason (for automobile engines). ZDDP has corrosive properties so don't get too carried away with it. Most diesel engines have larger & heavier duty parts than car engines so they did use higher amounts. The latest API CK-4 rating has reduced levels of ZDDP. Some of them are skirting the API CK-4 rating by listing the engine protection test results. They don't pass for that rating yet but if they eventually do then they won't have much more ZDDP than car engine oil has. They will just use other additives like they have for years. Diesel truck oil is overkill for most automobiles. The stuff helps with the high perfomance engines that started to show up in showrooms in 1958 but the earlier designs really would only need it for initial break in. After that, they would work just fine. The old flatheads don't need it at all. Rompum stompum engines with high compression and high lift, flat tappet cams will be the only ones that benefit from high ZDDP levels. Roller cams don't need high levels.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-15-2020 at 10:11 AM.
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Old 05-15-2020, 02:19 PM   #13
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Default Re: oil with out zink

I use 20/50 Brad Penn only in my 59 Corvette .
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Old 05-15-2020, 07:33 PM   #14
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Default Re: oil with out zink

80's oil had less than 800 PPM


Go here for some facts


https://www.ctci.org/gilsgarage/engi...-oil-and-zddp/



Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
The ZDDP was not completely removed. It was just reduced. The higher performance engines of the late 50s through the early 70s needed 1200 PPM of ZDDP for better longevity of flat tappet valve train components. The first reduction brought the levels down to 1000 PPM and further reductions reduced it to 800 PPM so it's still in there but at a reduced amount.
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Old 05-16-2020, 02:44 PM   #15
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Default Re: oil with out zink,no don't,used zink

I use Valvoline VR1 ,it is among other things made for flat tappet cam engines.
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Old 05-20-2020, 08:44 PM   #16
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Default Re: oil with out zink

The scare from the lack of ZDDP has been around since the mid 70's. Most people didn't realize it and most Ford engines didn't suffer from it. Both small and big block Chevys are the ones that suffer the most with flat tappet cams. 1 out of 5 of those cams went flat even before the ZDDP was reduced. I don't get to concerned about the oil in my old Fords, but my Chevy friends do
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Old 09-02-2020, 12:45 PM   #17
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Default Re: oil with out zink

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
Anything more than 1200 ppm starts to become detrimental to the engine parts. This was where the API set the limits for good reason (for automobile engines). ZDDP has corrosive properties so don't get too carried away with it. Most diesel engines have larger & heavier duty parts than car engines so they did use higher amounts. The latest API CK-4 rating has reduced levels of ZDDP. Some of them are skirting the API CK-4 rating by listing the engine protection test results. They don't pass for that rating yet but if they eventually do then they won't have much more ZDDP than car engine oil has. They will just use other additives like they have for years. Diesel truck oil is overkill for most automobiles. The stuff helps with the high perfomance engines that started to show up in showrooms in 1958 but the earlier designs really would only need it for initial break in. After that, they would work just fine. The old flatheads don't need it at all. Rompum stompum engines with high compression and high lift, flat tappet cams will be the only ones that benefit from high ZDDP levels. Roller cams don't need high levels.
I humbly disagree. My truck is a 71 stock 6cyl and PYB 10w-30 high mileage almost ruint my cam and did damage a lifter. I now have 15w-40 delo in it with an additive in it. I put the whole bottle in and I only needed 1/4 a bottle, but my engine runs real good on 5000+ppm of zddp. Wish I could get ahold of some old 30wt delo, but I may try some of that renagade 3000ppm oil or penn grade(brad penn). Now valvoline racing would be my last resort, but is an option. I just don't want to trust this epa mandated car oil anymore. Who wants to trust the government to protect their engines?
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Old 09-02-2020, 01:08 PM   #18
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Default Re: oil with out zink

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul2748 View Post
80's oil had less than 800 PPM


Go here for some facts


https://www.ctci.org/gilsgarage/engi...-oil-and-zddp/
Paul, I believe you posted that in good faith, but I don't trust the article. I think there are a lot of propaganda articles out there to control what people think. I was a teen in the 80s and my dad worked on his own stuff and I knew some hot rodders also. The oil never gave any trouble that I'm aware (unlike the lower zddp oils of today) of except for some cheap store brands and the rumors to stay away from quaker state and stp. I've read the articles including the one on modern oils that give higher psi flow (now pressure). I bought into them and almost ruint my engine on that stuff. Can you really blame me if I'm more sceptical than ever now?
I was about as gullable as a blonde haired dude could get, but as Abraham Lincoln once said--you can't believe everything on the internet because there is no way to prove that it's true....lol
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Old 09-02-2020, 02:28 PM   #19
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Default Re: oil with out zink

Is that Valvoline VR1 non-detergent
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Old 09-02-2020, 03:10 PM   #20
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Default Re: oil with out zink

No, VR-1 has detergents
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Old 09-02-2020, 07:41 PM   #21
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Default Re: oil with out zink

The guy who commissioned this study has no axe to grind with anybody. He is a noted early Bird restorer and engine builder.


Quote:
Originally Posted by greenpondmike View Post
Paul, I believe you posted that in good faith, but I don't trust the article. I think there are a lot of propaganda articles out there to control what people think. I was a teen in the 80s and my dad worked on his own stuff and I knew some hot rodders also. The oil never gave any trouble that I'm aware (unlike the lower zddp oils of today) of except for some cheap store brands and the rumors to stay away from quaker state and stp. I've read the articles including the one on modern oils that give higher psi flow (now pressure). I bought into them and almost ruint my engine on that stuff. Can you really blame me if I'm more sceptical than ever now?
I was about as gullable as a blonde haired dude could get, but as Abraham Lincoln once said--you can't believe everything on the internet because there is no way to prove that it's true....lol
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Old 09-02-2020, 08:34 PM   #22
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Default Re: oil with out zink

Sorry Paul, I still don't believe him. He is just like many I have seen on the web that says these things to calm down all those people like me that is angry with the epa for ruining our oil. He even has a link to that 540 ratblog that deceived me into using modern oil again. Anybody can write or say anything and if you mix it with the right catch phrases it could sound believable especially if one has a pedigree like he does. As I said, I was a teen in the 80s and also I had a truck by 84 and did my first oil change. Back then I used gulfpride 10w-40. Man, that was some good oil. Later on I used pennzoil 10w-40 and valvoline 10w-40 and even castrol 20w-50. Those oils were good back then compaired with the whimpy offerings they sell today at 2 or 3 times the price. I'm not ragging on you for believing that article, but I can't believe it myself. I mean, if zddp was enough in the 80s with that low level of zddp as the article says, then why did they increase it in the SG and SJ rated oils in the 90s--I mean, why did they feel the need to? The SG and SJ rated oils were the standard by which us old timers measure these modern oils by, but I think and from experience know the SF rated oils were better than that article say they were. There are websites all over the net telling this propaganda just so we will accept their "green epa friendly" oils at the severe risk of our old engines. Sorry if I sound angry--I am, but I'm also not ragging or downing anyone here--just disagreeing.

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Old 09-03-2020, 09:43 AM   #23
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Angry Re: oil with out zink

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Originally Posted by greenpondmike View Post
I humbly disagree. My truck is a 71 stock 6cyl and PYB 10w-30 high mileage almost ruint my cam and did damage a lifter. I now have 15w-40 delo in it with an additive in it. I put the whole bottle in and I only needed 1/4 a bottle, but my engine runs real good on 5000+ppm of zddp. Wish I could get ahold of some old 30wt delo, but I may try some of that renagade 3000ppm oil or penn grade(brad penn). Now valvoline racing would be my last resort, but is an option. I just don't want to trust this epa mandated car oil anymore. Who wants to trust the government to protect their engines?
before you go pounding your chest thinking you enlightened the world about the big bad oil companies ruining your engine what damage did it do to your lifter that it did not take out your cam?Paul pointed you to a discussion that explained their results.you have the right to disagree with it if you can bring forward evidence to dispute the results by all mans do so.but to say it ruined your 1971 6 cylinder by doing something to your lifter that miraculously did not harm your cam I find hard to believe.your quote about what you read also applies to your story I was sure that your engine used hydraulic lifters and does not apply as the oil they were talking about was aimed at solid lifters and heavy spring pressure

Last edited by 54vicky; 09-03-2020 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 09-03-2020, 10:49 AM   #24
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Default Re: oil with out zink

There is quite a discussion over on the shelby forum on oils. Long thread but lots of info.
admittedly it is in a modern engine (5.4)


https://www.svtperformance.com/threa...l-poll.787413/
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Old 09-03-2020, 05:01 PM   #25
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Default Re: oil with out zink

I just can't seem to deal with all of this oil controversy. I am still trying to come to grips with all of the engines that are going to fail from using lead free gas. How many years has that been now, 20? Or more?
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Old 09-03-2020, 06:12 PM   #26
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Default Re: oil with out zink

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There is no need to have a pissing match over oil. OP had a legitimate question. Everyone can and will use whatever they want and always have!!
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Old 09-03-2020, 07:58 PM   #27
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Default Re: oil with out zink

Rotella was reformualted too. I stopped using it. I now use Lucas Hotrod Oil. Valvoline racing oil is good too. Flat tappets on the camshaft are the area of concern.
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Old 09-03-2020, 07:58 PM   #28
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In the end, make the best decision you can. Its your car.
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Old 09-03-2020, 08:57 PM   #29
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In the end, make the best decision you can. Its your car.
Yes!!
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Old 09-04-2020, 07:53 AM   #30
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Default Re: oil with out zink

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I just can't seem to deal with all of this oil controversy. I am still trying to come to grips with all of the engines that are going to fail from using lead free gas. How many years has that been now, 20? Or more?
Yup, the 351C in my 36 has 140K that I put on it and it was a junk yard 72 Ranchero engine with unknown miles on it. I gave it a rattle can overhaul, added a 4bbl and have run the crap out of it since. And by the way, the oil that goes in is NAPA 20W-40 with no issues. It gives 16 - 17 MPG, runs smooth but does use about a quart every 1K miles. No smoke, no leaks, just a well worn engine that has never left me sit.
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Old 09-04-2020, 11:54 AM   #31
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Default Re: oil with out zink

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before you go pounding your chest thinking you enlightened the world about the big bad oil companies ruining your engine what damage did it do to your lifter that it did not take out your cam?Paul pointed you to a discussion that explained their results.you have the right to disagree with it if you can bring forward evidence to dispute the results by all mans do so.but to say it ruined your 1971 6 cylinder by doing something to your lifter that miraculously did not harm your cam I find hard to believe.your quote about what you read also applies to your story I was sure that your engine used hydraulic lifters and does not apply as the oil they were talking about was aimed at solid lifters and heavy spring pressure
Whoa man, I didn't think I was pounding on my chest and I believe the oil companies are doing the best they can with the demand that car companies are putting on them because "big bad" government (EPA) wanted the cat converters to last longer and had car companies to warrent them for longer.
My cam WAS damaged--scoured, but it was either fix my truck or get a tricycle to ride 20 miles to work. I HAD to make this work and hope between the zddp for the cam and the wix filter for any grit left behind maybe things will be alright. I have a newer 6cyl that is supposed to run and have now been given a V8 that does run. No I didn't pull the oil pan because I had a limited time period to do this and this simple job turned into a all nighter and a good part of the next day. I drove it and it started ticking again and missing on a cylinder, so I added the zddp and tore into it again about a week later and now it runs as good as it ever did or better--thank GOD. I did pour oil through it to flush it out and carefully clean the top half of the head, the area around the lifters and the lifter bores and pre-assemble lube the stew out of the lifters-especially the 2 new ones and where the damaged one was in which I put one of the originals.
Will it hold up to what I did? So far, so good and maybe the filter won't stop up with particles. The camshaft cut a curvered area into the lifter about 1/8 of an inch. Cam looked scoured, but felt smooth. Broke it in alternating between 2500-3500 rpm (a guess) for a few minutes. Tapped bad at first, but smoothed out real good.
That thar is the rest of the story and I left it out to keep my long posts from being longer.
I know I should have tore it all the way down, cleaned it and replaced some more parts, but making only $8.25 an hour, I did what I could with what money and time I had. All pressure lubrication goes through the oil filter and the cam lobes are splashed lubed. Most of the grit I hope wound up in the grooves around the head bolts and wasn't there as bad when I changed the valve cover gasket a few months before. That pennzoil was slinging better than I have ever seem ANY vehicle sling oil when running it with the valve cover off. Yes, it was lubricating like crazy and this STILL happened. Yes, my rpms were low and it was slinging some oil slap dab over the fender and even coated the inside fender well. Pennzoil is a good oil, but with stuff missing in it, it is no better than any other brand. It still smells good though. Yes, I'm weird--I like to sniff my oil before putting it in the engine.
Ol oil sniffer says--peace y'all
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Old 04-04-2021, 07:30 PM   #32
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Default Re: oil with out zink

I use Lucas Hotrod too.

They did reduce the concentrations some years back. I'm afraid of wiping a cam lobe on flat tappet engines.

Bunch of guys in my Model-A club (I have one of those too) still swear by Shell Rotella-T. They do not realize that Rotella-T hasd been reformualted. They still buy oil based on brand. They do not understand you first buy oil based on the formual (chemistry) you want, then viscosity, then a brand you trust for consistensy and quality control. I am not wasting any more of my breath on people in my car clubs that are in their 80s and 90s.

I have used that Lucas addative, and I think that is some good stuff too!
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Old 04-05-2021, 06:50 AM   #33
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Cool Re: oil with out zink

Ah, the ever familiar engine oil debate/controversy.

The only way to determine if a lubricant is working correctly with your engine is with frequent oil analysis and tear-downs.
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Old 04-05-2021, 08:07 AM   #34
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Default Re: oil with out zink

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Ah, the ever familiar engine oil debate/controversy.

The only way to determine if a lubricant is working correctly with your engine is with frequent oil analysis and tear-downs.
Yup, that and running the crap out of it. If it lays down there must have been a problem. That ol pre lead free gas pre ZDDP free oil engine (351C) still ticking them off!
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Old 04-05-2021, 04:48 PM   #35
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Thumbs up Re: oil with out zink

I'll tell you what, I bought a used 73 RANCHERO 351CJ/FMX that would run with the best of them.

If I had another street runner, it would definitely be a 351C.
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Old 04-05-2021, 06:54 PM   #36
Bob T
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Default Re: oil with out zink

I use regular oil and add a bottle of ZDDP [zinc ] to it. Will not start my engine without it.
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Old 04-06-2021, 01:25 AM   #37
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Post Re: oil with out zink

See VR-1 SPEC SHEET Below -
Attached Images
File Type: jpg LUBE - Engine Oil - VR-1 SPEC SHEET.JPG (72.6 KB, 19 views)
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Old 04-06-2021, 09:55 AM   #38
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Default Re: oil with out zink

I don't know why folks bring this old stuff back up. There must be more than a few other threads about this and many more on other forums. Folks can be told by an expert (of which I am not) that the ZDDP was added more for high performance engines with high valve spring pressures and lumpy cam shafts and even then, it was more for break in than for the life of the engine. Folks have a cam problem and the oil seems to be a convenient thing to blame. I've seen engines from the factory with miss drilled lifter bores and worn out cam lobes mostly due to quality control problems at manufacture. Y-blocks had some problems with top end oiling but not all of them. Most of these older engines had pretty tame cams and nothing special about the valve train. Any oil is better than none.

Use what ever you want but just make sure it has oil in it. Remember that racing engines generally fail sooner due to the extreme power usage and not so much about the oil that is utilized.

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Old 04-06-2021, 02:58 PM   #39
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Default Re: oil with out zink

This guy does all kinds of oil tests on all kinds of brands and out of his own pocket check him out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTyrc1zjKEA
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Old 04-06-2021, 03:00 PM   #40
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Default Re: oil with out zink

And since the Rotella subject came up again maybe this might clear up a few things. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ml6vDdt2ig
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Old 04-06-2021, 03:53 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffB2 View Post

And since the Rotella subject came up again maybe this might clear up a few things. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ml6vDdt2ig
You will never wake them up Jeff. Just like brakes and hydraulic valve-train adjustments.

When an oil is rated for HEAVY DIESEL, it has no business in a PASS CAR gas engine. At one time many many years ago, it was the necessary go-to but the industry has come out with new and better for older cars while skirting regulations.
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Old 04-08-2021, 06:18 PM   #42
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Default Re: oil with out zink

The classic oil discussion. Everyone use different oils and has no problems so they feel theirs is the Magical oil...What it really means is they are all good and it makes extremely little difference.
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Old 04-10-2021, 07:38 PM   #43
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Default Re: oil with out zink

I wanna ask something. Break=in oil is not all that much more expensive than the exotic oils, and / or additives. What about just using break-in oil all the time? Most collector cars only get less than 1,000 miles per year, and get changed every season.
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Old 04-11-2021, 04:10 AM   #44
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Post Re: oil with out zink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene F View Post

What about just using break-in oil all the time.
Quote:
Break-in oil is different from regular motor oil because, by design, it is supposed to allow the rings to wear down the peaks on the cylinder wall to form a good seal. Regular motor oil, in contrast, is designed to prevent wear.
SOURCE - https://blog.amsoil.com/why-you-shou...rts-equipment/

Oils have differing purposes (especially in today's industry). It can become confusing. Break-in oil will not/may not contain detergent/dispersing agents either, the same with RACING OILS. You have to read what the oil intended usage is.
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Old 04-11-2021, 04:15 AM   #45
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Post Re: oil with out zink

Quote:
What it really means is they are all good and it makes extremely little difference.
Well, that may be true to a certain extent. Differing oils are blended for specific applications. You research and choose an oil (or any lubricant/chemical) on what you car needs basis and hope for the best.
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Old 04-12-2021, 12:41 PM   #46
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Default Re: oil with out zink

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The "break in" oil that is used in aircraft engines is straight mineral oil with no additives. I don't think a person with a high performance engine would want to use that. I've never used any straight mineral in a liquid cooled engine.
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Old 04-12-2021, 06:36 PM   #47
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Post Re: oil with out zink

The facts concerning BREAK-IN oils -

https://www.amsoil.com/p/break-in-oil-sae-30--brk/

As with a RACING OIL, it is not meany for general driving.
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