Electric fuel pump

[Thegearhead]

Hey fellas, A friend of mine told me about this site,with the hope that somebody maybe able to help me out. A customer of mine has a bone stock 40 ford standard. The car sat in a museum for 13 years before he bought it.Needless to say it's had a few issues. The car may sit for a month or two before he may drive it, So he wanted me to install an electric pump to help in the aid of starting it.So I put a 6volt Carter on it,running just off of a toggle switch. I also installed a new mechanical pump and push rod.The problem is that it runs out of fuel on the highway.Around town at 30-35 mph all seems fine.But at 50 it starts to stumble,If I hit the electric for a second and lower the speed it straightens out.Is it possible that the mechanical pump cant pull it fast enough past the electric and it starts to starve? Any help here will be greatly welcomed! I have had the car for two months and it needs to go home! Thanks!

[Flathead Fever]

Years ago, I was told if I wanted to run an auxiliary electric fuel pump I needed to choose one that was open when it was not energized. This advice came from an old-timer Ford enthusiast that owned the local parts store here in town. This guy was really sharp and he would not tell you something unless he was 100% sure he knew what he was talking about. I only wish I could have plugged into his head and downloaded all the info in there before he passed away.

Some electric fuel pumps are designed to be open when they are not energized while others are designed to close and hold pressure in the system by use of a one-way check valve that prevents fuel from draining back into the tank. I would see if you can blow both ways though the electric pump when it is not energized. It might be that the mechanical pump has enough vacuum to partially open up the check valve in the electric pump and allow some fuel to flow through but not enough for high speeds.

[Thegearhead]

That makes sense. I initially ran the pump with a bypass hose,with the thought the mechanical pump would pull it through there.But it would run out of fuel. I believe it was just circulating around that loop.

[G.M.]

Sounds like the new gas got to the flex hose and it is sucking air. Contact Bob Shewman [email protected] for a hose the new gas don't effect. He makes two styes one like the stock hose and the other has a check valve build into the hose fitting at the pump end. This valve holds the fuel in the pump keeping it from draining back to the tank. The tank on the 40 probly needs to be cleaned also. I'm not into electric pumps as I don't see a need for one but if installed they should have a spring loaded switch that needs to be held on to operate so fuel isn't pumped into the crank case. With the electric pump if it isn't hard plumbed you now have more rubber hoses out of sight for the fuel to destroy. G.M.

[Thegearhead]

Ya the old tank was pretty nasty.So I installed a new one from Drake. All the lines are new,pump and push rod are new and the carb rebiult. I never thought about theflex line from the pump to the 1/4 hard line? It looks new but who knows?

[G.M.]

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The new tank was a good idea, a dirty tank will give problems for years and as you found out it only takes about forty five minutes to remove and less time to install. G.M.

[Thegearhead]

Yep,that old tank sat empty for years,and when I filled it,well all the rust let go.I would plug a new fiter in just a few minutes. I have been chasiing gremlins in this car for months. I have a feeling that this new mechanical pump just cant pull through the vane style carter.The customer drove it for 250 mile before he came to me wanting to install the electric,just for priming purposes.He did have a problem or two along the way with fuel delivery,but with the electric in it,it has a hard time going around the block! The car came in originally for new running board rubber,since then,I have redone the entire brake system,new head gaskets,and this fuel problem.I do like the car,but it needs to go home!

[CWPASADENA]

Originally Posted by Thegearhead

I put a 6volt Carter on it,running just off of a toggle switch. I also installed a new mechanical pump and push rod.The problem is that it runs out of fuel on the highway.Around town at 30-35 mph all seems fine.But at 50 it starts to stumble,If I hit the electric for a second and lower the speed it straightens out.

Is it possible that the mechanical pump cant pull it fast enough past the electric and it starts to starve? Any help here will be greatly welcomed! I have had the car for two months and it needs to go home! Thanks!

YES, I just ran across that very problem about two weeks ago with my car and a Carter Electric Pump.

I changed to a Airtex Electric Pump and now everything is fine.

The Carter and Airtex Pumps are different design. The Airtex is a clicker (Plus) type pump and the valves are such that the mechanical pump will pull thru it with no problem.

The Carter is a turbine type pump and the mechanical pump can not pull enough fuel thru it and will cause starvation under load on the highway.

I ran an Airtex for years without any problem on one of my other cars and did not think there would be a problem when I put a Carter this car but I found the Carter will not work for this application.

You can run a bypass circuit around the Carter Pump with a check valve in it to keep the fuel flowing backwards and returning back to the tank when the electric pump is being used, but this seems to be a lot more trouble then changing to a Airtex Pump. If you can not get one at your local parts store, Mac's has them. Both the Carter and Airtex are about the same size and mount "in line".

There are other clicker or pluse type pumps that will also work. In the old days, I ran an Autopulse on my 34 PU.

I hope this helps, Chris

[CWPASADENA]

The P/Ns for the Airtex Pumps are:

6 Volt, E-8011

12 Volt, E-8012S

The Airtex pump will work fine as a pump to prime the system after the car has been setting BUT it will require a regulator if you were to use it as a full time pump as the output pressure is a little high for the old carburators.

Chris

[G.M.]

If you can blow through the electric pump from the tank end with your mouth the mechanical pump should pull gas through it. If you can blow through from the engine end it don't have a check valve if you can't it has a check valve. G.M.

[Thegearhead]

Thanks alot fellas,with this information I'm sure I will fix the problem.I'll keep ya posted! Thanks again!

[Flathead Fever]

Originally Posted by CWPASADENA

The P/Ns for the Airtex Pumps are:

6 Volt, E-8011

12 Volt, E-8012S

The Airtex pump will work fine as a pump to prime the system after the car has been setting BUT it will require a regulator if you were to use it as a full time pump as the output pressure is a little high for the old carburators.

Chris

Airtex makes all kinds of electric pumps with different pressure readings, some as low as 1.5 psi. It you get the right pump to begin with you will not need a pressure regulator.

[CWPASADENA]

Originally Posted by Flathead Fever

Airtex makes all kinds of electric pumps with different pressure readings, some as low as 1.5 psi. It you get the right pump to begin with you will not need a pressure regulator.

Is it possible that you can post some Part Numbers for a 6 and 12 Volt Airtex Inline Pump that is lower pressure?

The only one that my Parts Store stocks and Mac's sells is 4-6.5 Psi for the 6 Volt pump and 5-9 Psi for the 12 Volt Pump.

Let us know what you find out.

Chris

[Thegearhead]

Thanks fellas! I took the Carter pump off last night,and drove the car about 5-6 miles. Speeds from 30 to 50 mph,without a hitch! I tried to blow through the electric pump and found it to be very restrictive. Last night I ordered the new style hose with a check valve in it.That should clear up the problem of hard starting after a period of time,and eliminate the fuel problems I have been having. Thanks again for your help!

[Flathead Fever]

Originally Posted by CWPASADENA

Is it possible that you can post some Part Numbers for a 6 and 12 Volt Airtex Inline Pump that is lower pressure?

The only one that my Parts Store stocks and Mac's sells is 4-6.5 Psi for the 6 Volt pump and 5-9 Psi for the 12 Volt Pump.

Let us know what you find out.

Chris

I don’t have a specific Airtex number that will work with a Flathead. I several hot rod projects in the works and have yet to actually try out my electric fuel pump theories. I would not feel right recommending a part number based on one of my uneducated guesses.

Three or four pounds of pressure might seem a little excessive for a Stromberg carb but when the electric pump is mounted back by the tank by the time it lifts the weight of all that fuel in the lines the pressure drops before it reaches the carb.

I worked for Verizon as a mechanic for 30 years. We had Onan generators with low pressure fuel pumps. If the Onan had the pump mounted directly on the unit it was an 1.5 P.S.I pump. If the same Onan had the pump mounted down on the frame it required a 3 P.S.I pump. If we accidentally installed an 1.5 P.S.I pump down on the frame the Onan would start in the shop but the next night it would comeback with complaints of quitting during the day. The pressure reading of the pump is not as important as what the actual pressure reading is at the carburetor.

I talked with a friend tonight that has a ‘30 Model A powered by a flathead V8 with dual carbs. He is running four pounds of pressure out of the regulator which is mounted next to an electric fuel pump back by the tank. The pressure drops by the time it reaches the carbs and he has not had any problems with them flooding over. His car is setup as a pre-war hot rod. He has the electric pump flowing through a mechanical pump housing that has the guts removed from it. The mechanical pump is only there to look period correct.

I went through the flow and pressure guidelines for different pumps in an Airtex catalog. Here are some low pressure pumps that might work. I have no idea if you can blow through these pumps and use them along with a mechanical pump or not? The OEM pumps do not list the inlet and outlet size, I would look for one with 5/16” hose fittings, also pick one that has the inlets and outlets lines pointed in the direction that will work out best on your project. I have attached photos of some of the low pressure Airtex pumps so you can see if they are something that might work out on your projects. I did not see any 6V low pressure pumps listed.

The only reason to use these low pressure electric pumps is to eliminate an additional fuel pressure regulator. I had a ‘66 Mini Cooper S with a fuel regulator and a Vintage Olds powered hot rod with one. I have never had good luck with these low pressure fuel regulators. If you set them down below 3 P.S.I the pressure is set so low that the regulator might not decide to let the fuel flow through. I have tried a couple different brands of regulators, including some high dollar ones meant for 1-3 P.S.I systems. Several times on both cars the fuel shut off completely while driving down the road. I had to get out and turn the regulators back to zero and then reset them in order to get the fuel flowing again. I vowed never to use one again! The less crap that can go wrong the better.

OEM Pumps
E8316 is a 12V solenoid type pump rated at 20 G.P.H and 2-3.5 P.S. I, fits 84-85 Hondas. Photo is the pump with the rubber mounting boots separate.
　
E8057 is a 12V solenoid type pump rated at 10-15 G.P.H and 1 ½-3 P.S.I, fits a 1980 Subaru. Photo is the pump with the mounting bracket with the long studs.

E8058 is a 12V solenoid type pump rated at 14 G.P.H and 1 ½-3 P.S. I, fits a 1981 Subaru. Photo is the pump with the ID Tag with Made In Japan on it


Universal Pumps

I have an E8012S pump sitting here that is rated at 5-9 P.S.I. I can blow through the inlet side but not through the outlet because of a check valve. I can suck through the outlet without any problem so it might still work with a mechanical pump. It is the same style pump as the E8016S pump below which is a lower pressure pump.

E8016S is a 12V solenoid type pump rated at 30 G.P.H and 2 ½-4 ½ P.S. I. 5/16” hose. Photo is the pump with the separate mounting bracket, hoses and clamps.
　

[CWPASADENA]

Originally Posted by Thegearhead

Thanks fellas! I took the Carter pump off last night,and drove the car about 5-6 miles. Speeds from 30 to 50 mph,without a hitch! I tried to blow through the electric pump and found it to be very restrictive. Last night I ordered the new style hose with a check valve in it.That should clear up the problem of hard starting after a period of time,and eliminate the fuel problems I have been having. Thanks again for your help!

You still may want to consider an electric pump. The Check valve in the hose will help but with todays fuel, the fuel will evaporate and the carb will go dry after a week or so of sitting. You still will have to crank the engine some just to get the carb filled up before the car will start. An electric pump on a momentary switch will allow you to Prime the system and save a lot of cranking when the car has sat for a period of time. Just be sure you use a solenoid or "Clicker" type like the Airtex and NOT a turbin type like the Carter you were using.

Just my opinion.

Chris

[Pat/Ohio]

Hi Guys,

The Airtex electric fuel pump for the flathead is E8902. It delivers between 2-4 psi. according to the Airtex website. It is 6 volts.

Pat