Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

[glennpm]

Great write-up DD!

[rich b]

Something that hasn't been mentioned is the lack of an e-brake cables. With the brakes apart; it would be a good time to install them.

Also the shoe hold-downs on the '42-'48 rear plate are missing along with the e-brake lever guide on the '39-'41 rear plate.

How are the drums; you haven't said anything about them so far?

[Marshall V. Daut]

The drums have most likely been turned too much, judging by how worn out almost everything is on this chassis. What are the thickness limits and the inner diameter of the braking surface area so that I can measure these drums? There are the typical grooves in the brake shoe area because of the shoe rivets gouging in, but not terribly bad. Just not ideal.
Marshall

[tubman]

Drums are 12" nominal with an "official" .060 allowance for wear

[Marshall V. Daut]

Thanks, Tubman. I loaned out my calipers, so I couldn't measure the thickness of the drums today. I'll do that tomorrow after the calipers have been returned to me.
Marshall

[JSeery]

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Just one slight correction, it doesn't matter if the car is up on a jack stand or setting on the ground or moving or setting still, it just has to have the drums in place for the shoes to have something to push against.

I normally wouldn't suggest this, but it might help with your quandary. With the drums off, slightly press the pedal down and see which brake shoe moves. Now clamp that shoe so it can't move. Now press the pedal down again and see which shoe moves now. Then clamp that down and do it again. You can work your way through all 8 shoes if you like. In each case the shoe with the least resistance will be the one to move. The resistance of each shoe should be almost identical, but the very slight differences will always allow one to win out over the others.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Here are the photos I took a little while ago of the master cylinder and pedal placement.

I removed one of the rear wheel cylinders and it looks brand-new inside. See photo. One mounting bolt appears to have been broken in a bottom hole. I expected brake fluid to come gushing out when I disconnected the brake line from the cylinder, but nothing came out, not even a dribble. There was a great deal of fluid inside the cylinder, however. The cylinder parts came out easily. I don't see any pitting or rust damage inside. Does this wheel cylinder look like the right type to you guys?

By the way, in case anyone here thinks I grouse too much about the lousy mechanical work and modifications this car has suffered, check out the drag link photo. And this is pretty much typical for "repairs" and modifications on this car. PLEASE don't tell me the drag link came from the factory like this!!!

Marshall

[Marshall V. Daut]

And the two pedals relocated, later years.
M.

[JSeery]

Why do you think fluid would come gushing out of the wheel cylinder? It's not under any pressure. The pressure comes from the master cylinder when the pedal is pressed. When it is released, the pressure in the system should return to zero.

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

And the two pedals relocated, later years.
M.

Marshall, Check your master cylinder pushrod free play. It has to let the piston return all the way to uncover the port in the reservoir. If not it won't take on more fluid or return excess fluid. Until this is correct you cannot bleed the brakes. It should have at least 1/16 free play when the piston is against the snap ring.
That is a 39-48 master cylinder, should be okay if it's in good shape.

Bill

[Mart]

I would ground that car immediately.

The whole thing needs going through by someone who knows what they are doing.

The drag link alone is enough to say DO NOT DRIVE.

There are brand new brake assemblies that can be fitted to all 4 wheels. These are an upgrade to the ones fitted now.

Master cylinder conversion kits are available and would be better than that disgraceful bent metal monstrosity currently fitted as a brake pedal. What would happen to that if you had to stand on the brakes? It would bend.

Does it even deliver the correct amount of travel to the cylinder?

Sorry to say it, but the car needs a good going over by an expert. If you can't understand even basic principles of how a hydraulic brake works, I'm sorry but you are not that expert.

If you brought it to me I would put it right for you. But I am the wrong side of the Atlantic.

Be very careful too with your involvement as these are highly safety critical parts you are trying to help with.

Mart.

[John R]

The pedals and the pedal bracket are not 32 Ford passenger. (The bracket looks to be from a big Truck, possibly a 32 - 34 with a modified brake pedal. A non-traditional approach to converting to hydraulic brakes to say the least.) Nevertheless, these truck parts could be made to work OK, but it is not at all clear from the photos whether the pedal is able to move the M/Cylinder pushrod far enough and has a minimum of free play. That should be easy to determine.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by John R

The pedals and the pedal bracket are not 32 Ford passenger. (The bracket looks to be from a big Truck, possibly a 32 - 34 with a modified brake pedal. A non-traditional approach to converting to hydraulic brakes to say the least.) Nevertheless, these truck parts could be made to work OK, but it is not at all clear from the photos whether the pedal is able to move the M/Cylinder pushrod far enough and has a minimum of free play. That should be easy to determine.

I believe that PEDAL BRACKET/Assembly is from a '48-'52-ish "F1" Pick-up, below.





Your cylinder APPEARS to be the 'run-of-the-mill' '39-'48 Ford M/C. The important part of that is to ASSURE hat the M/C bore is 1-1/16" diameter, so that it matches the diameters of the 'stock' wheel cylinders. In hydraulics, the diameters of MASTER and SLAVE cylinders is very important as for maintaining proper pressure ratios. A M/C with a bore of even 1/16" DIFFERENCE can make the pedal TOO hard to push....OR....allow the pedal to go TOO far down before shoes make contact with drum. MATCHING is unbelievably important!!!

Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with how your pedal, M/C and other components are mounted, but the link below shows a similar project with pictures and ideas to throw-around. Click the link below! DD

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...1+brake+pedals

[Mart]

I just looked at the photos again and I am wondering why the central top part of the K member has been torched out.

That car really needs a ground up rebuild.

Mart.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Mart

I just looked at the photos again and I am wondering why the central top part of the K member has been torched out.

That car really needs a ground up rebuild.

Mart.

Yes, that is a shame. It looks to have been done so that the M/C cap can be EASILY removed. What a hack! I agree, that car needs FAR MORE than just 'bleeding the brakes'. But, there is all sorts of potential there once all of the systems are PROPERLY RE-ENGINEERED and tidied-up!

But Marshall....WE are all STILL HERE to help you in any way that we can. If you have the money and the time, the 'Barn-folks can get you there. WHERE ARE YOU LOCATED? DD

[Mart]

Look a bit further over, DD. The whole top of the K is missing in the centre.

[Randy in ca]

Originally Posted by Mart

Look a bit further over, DD. The whole top of the K is missing in the centre.

-
I noticed that too and wondered how much of the middle of the crossmember is even left.

[Karl Wolf]

I didn't see Ritchard Lacy mentioned. He has a business,
may be called something like the V8 Garage, I can't recall.
I have seen one of his kit installs for a 1935 Ford,
it was really well engineered. Bolt on, Nothing to cut or drill.

Karl

[bobH]

Whooah... After taking a good look at the pictures, I must agree with many of the safety concerns expressed above. I've known Marshall for a long time. Not in person, but rather, through his postings on another forum. I am confident that he will see this through, and make it right. My advice would be, fix what's needed, and make it right. Those 39-48-style brakes have been used by many people in the past, and made-right, can be quite adequate. In my view, the K-member needs to be restored (and made safe), and the pedals need to be changed to something more 'conventional' for a 32. The guys here can, and I'm sure will, offer thoughts on this. And, if need be, and if your thinking leans this direction, you could always get ahold of the Early V8 Garage (Richard Lacy, and son Dennis) for one of their master cylinder mounting kits, which use the original 1932 pedals. You would still be using the 39-48 master cylinder, which seems like you already have. Of course, there are other ways to safely accomplish this. And, the guys here can help. Just my .02 and opinion.....
Oh.... forgot.... that drag link scares me. I wonder what else might be found on this car.

V8 Garage, West Covina CA, 626-338-2282
earlyv8garage.net
email [email protected]
ad in Hemmings, for June 2021 on page 246.
Besides brake stuff, they sometimes also have other parts for sale. Maybe the pedals? Most likely thoughts and fixes for that drag link.

[Mart]

One of the brake pipes appears to be kinked and flattened. Not great. The pedals may be shorter than they should be, leading to heavy loads.
Regarding the rear wheel cylinder: If you look up the large bore and see where the feed drilling enters the bore, it should be at the base of the bore, in line with the bleed hole. Many have the drilling further up the bore, some to such a degree that they cannot seal with the piston back down the bore in the normal position for non worn drums/shoes.