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Old 10-15-2020, 10:36 AM   #1
jrd-28
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Default Paint recommendations

I bet this will be a fun topic


I've got a '28 restoration project which is at the stage of needing primer and paint.


I see all kinds of things out there. Looking for recommendations on brand, ability to match colors accurately, etc.


One piece of advice I see a lot: Make sure I get compatible primers and color coats. Trying to mix and match will not work. I'd just as soon use one system from the same manufacturer, if possible.


Also, do y'all have favorite vendors for matching correct model A colors? I'm looking at the medium dark blue for the lower body panels, paler blue for the upper (I can't remember Ford's names for those) and french grey for the accent strip. And of course black fenders.


I'm happy to hear the wisdom of the group on what to use. Thanks in advance.
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Old 10-15-2020, 11:24 AM   #2
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Default Re: Paint recommendations

I always use one mfg from base to finish. If you pay attention to the data sheets, one mfg products should be most/best compatible
While expensive and I don’t do tons of painting anymore, I use PPG
BTW get the paint guide. Match on the chips therein often varies by the person doing the matching imho. I also found it easier to take the chip book and match to a color in the dealers chips: that way they have a formula;
The scanners have too many outside variables that affect the read

Last edited by Oldbluoval; 10-16-2020 at 06:55 AM.
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Old 10-16-2020, 07:19 AM   #3
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Default Re: Paint recommendations

Are you painting the car yourself? You should find a local paint supplier and check out their supply. If you are satisfied go with them. That way you will have everything local when needed and some help if you need that as well. I have a mom n pop auto shop that sells paint and supplies. The guys at the counter have been more than great help to me over the years with many projects.
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Old 10-16-2020, 08:09 AM   #4
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Default Re: Paint recommendations

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Originally Posted by 77Birdman View Post
Are you painting the car yourself? You should find a local paint supplier and check out their supply. If you are satisfied go with them. That way you will have everything local when needed and some help if you need that as well. I have a mom n pop auto shop that sells paint and supplies. The guys at the counter have been more than great help to me over the years with many projects.
Good, sound advice!
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Old 10-16-2020, 08:32 AM   #5
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Default Re: Paint recommendations

A single stage urethane is an excellent choice because it is durable and relatively easy to touch-up. It does not require color sanding. Avoid clear coat paint systems because a Model "A" is prone to scratches and rub spots that require often touch-ups. Clear coat is difficult to touch-up. DuPont's Nason is a good choice.
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Old 10-16-2020, 08:56 AM   #6
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Your question could easily fill a full-day seminar. Much of what you are asking also depends on whether basecoat/clearcoat, -or single-stage 2k paints are going to be used. I am not a fan of excessive MIL thickness. Certain brands (Axalta for one) uses less pigments in their Chroma line vs. PPG in their Concept line. A gallon of Chroma Premier makes 5 sprayable quarts as I recall whereas the Concept DCC makes 7 sprayable quarts out of a gallon of paint. Cheaper paint lines also use inferior pigments and older technology of binders. Cheap paint usually looks cheap to a trained eye. Most collision shops today only use BC/CC, so advice given by a counterman or painter may not be accurate if using single-stage 2k paint products.

Next, "primers" continually change. What we were using 5 years ago is basically outdated technology. Even sandpaper has changed. In my shop, we have pretty much phased out using paper with carbide aggregate attached (typical sandpaper) in lieu of a product called Net (-looks like screen wire in different grits). I can tell you what we use in-house however our method of 'cooking' may not suit your abilities or availability. For example, will you be prepping and epoxy coating the metal prior to starting bodywork? Will you be using fillers DTM or over the epoxy? Will you be using urethane or polyester surfacers?? Again, BC/CC or Single-stage??? Any post prep work such as colorsanding & buffing????

One other caution that I touched on briefly above. Many paint jobbers only have the experience they have read from their supplier's literature, -or from comments they have heard their collision shops say. The same could be said from people here giving advice, -me included. Even my own shop does not paint but 6 - 8 complete cars a year. Most collision shops do that amount of cars in a week however they typically do not use the same methods nor products as we do. So who has the applicable advice?? That is the $64,000.00 question. As I said above, folks that have experience painting a car over a year or two ago have non-applicable experience based on ever changing products that are available today.
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Old 10-16-2020, 09:20 AM   #7
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Default Re: Paint recommendations

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Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde View Post
A single stage urethane is an excellent choice because it is durable and relatively easy to touch-up. It does not require color sanding. Avoid clear coat paint systems because a Model "A" is prone to scratches and rub spots that require often touch-ups. Clear coat is difficult to touch-up. DuPont's Nason is a good choice.
To kinda prove my point at the expense of my buddy & friend Bob's comment above, DuPont has not been in the paint business since 2013 now. DuPont sold to Axalta 7-8 years ago ...and IMO Axalta has really cheapened their products since then. When DuPont manufactured Nason to compete against PPG's Omni line, they were using their old technology lines as a way to compete against the cheap off-shore imported paint lines. As Bob said, they were decent back when DuPont made them but not so much since then. Many of the components that were used in those cheaper lines have either become cost prohibitive to use (lead being one) or outlawed all together. Because it was a line that has become less profitable for them, they are just throwing cheap fillers into make the paint, and should be considered for use as a used car level paint material.



BTW Bob, please don't be mad at me for using your comment!!
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Old 10-16-2020, 11:33 AM   #8
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Default Re: Paint recommendations

This is a topic that you can spend months studying. I was getting ready to paint my 31 slant windshield cabriolet in Kewanni Green and Elpointe green. I tried to get a close match to what I thought was correct and received many pictures from fellow barners. Everyone's car was different but very nice to look at. I came to the conclusion that no one knows exactly what the original colors where like due to aging. My local PPG dealer was useless and very expensive! Take a close look at TCP paints. I chose the new paint system, acrylic urethane. The paint is fantastic, I can't say enought about how tough and shiny this paint is. It seemed easier to use and it was difficult to make it run!!
TCP has a wide, wide range of paint colors available. I felt the cost of a quart of this paint was low enough to mix my own! I picked a green, blue, yellow, white and black and practiced various mixes (keeping good notes as to what I combined). Eventually, I mixed four quarts of Kewanni green (the lighter color, lower body) and three quarts of Elkpointe green. My cost was about $700.00. I was quoted by PPG $1500.00 for the same quantity of paint. As for primers, I used epoxy primer/sealer, high build primer and then a single stage top coat, no clear coats. I highly recommend you study the TCP paint web site. Good luck, Ed
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Old 10-16-2020, 12:04 PM   #9
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Default Re: Paint recommendations

I've used TCP (tri county paint in San Diego, Ca) supplies. They used to have an expert on Model A's named Jimmy who I believe has retired, but they know the Model A charts . They have a Restoration Line and other products for the do it yourself painter and can ship almost everywhere except non VOC compliant materials such as lacquer, acry. enamel, etc. to locations not bound by strict environmental restrictions even though they still can provide lacquer, etc.. My favorite shop on high end cars for shows, etc. likes Glasurit 22 but this stuff is $$$. The single stages (full depth color) as pointed out are forgiving and can be sanded to remove scratches and surface wear.
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Old 10-16-2020, 12:44 PM   #10
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Default Re: Paint recommendations

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Originally Posted by Ed in Maine View Post
This is a topic that you can spend months studying. I was getting ready to paint my 31 slant windshield cabriolet in Kewanni Green and Elpointe green. I tried to get a close match to what I thought was correct and received many pictures from fellow barners. Everyone's car was different but very nice to look at. I came to the conclusion that no one knows exactly what the original colors where like due to aging. My local PPG dealer was useless and very expensive! Take a close look at TCP paints. I chose the new paint system, acrylic urethane. The paint is fantastic, I can't say enought about how tough and shiny this paint is. It seemed easier to use and it was difficult to make it run!!
TCP has a wide, wide range of paint colors available. I felt the cost of a quart of this paint was low enough to mix my own! I picked a green, blue, yellow, white and black and practiced various mixes (keeping good notes as to what I combined). Eventually, I mixed four quarts of Kewanni green (the lighter color, lower body) and three quarts of Elkpointe green. My cost was about $700.00. I was quoted by PPG $1500.00 for the same quantity of paint. As for primers, I used epoxy primer/sealer, high build primer and then a single stage top coat, no clear coats. I highly recommend you study the TCP paint web site. Good luck, Ed


Ed, that is an interesting comment in red. I am unsure what to say in this because I have collected a couple of different paint books over the years that are slightly different from each other. Click HERE to read an interesting thread regarding this several years ago. Comments were made that the MAFCA book was started from scratch by them. There was a company out of Tennessee that offered a Model-A color chip booklet that is similar to the MAFCA book. My PPG chips was manufactured by Ditzler and listed the specific colors of the Model-A, -and the copyright on it is like 1954.

I guess my answer to your comment is you are correct that many do not know yet what I tell my customers is; "While what shade & tints we find in the present MAFCA Paint & Refinish Guide may not be 100% accurate when compared to what color was originally used, -their book is definitely the benchmark used by most hobbyists today to determine if the shade and/or tint of a color is correct. Match the chip in the book, and most will tell you it is the correct color. Don't match and they will tell you that your color is wrong!

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Old 10-16-2020, 01:01 PM   #11
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Default Re: Paint recommendations

Quote:
their book is definitely the benchmark used by most hobbyists today to determine if the shade and/or tint of a color is correct. Match the chip in the book, and most will tell you it is the correct color. Don't match and they will tell you that your color is wrong!
Plus 1

As I understand it from my restorer buddy from years ago, paint colors are NOT constant. And given the various sources and formulations they use to get to those sources, the same "name" color from different suppliers will have different colors/hue/appearance.

It may be named the same, may be assured to be "true" to the Ford Spec/color charts/whatever - but it won't be.

His take on colors is to send away and get the "color chip chart" from the major Ford hobby organizations. Get a single chart. Assume it is correct. Take it to your paint source, have him scan it, and mix your color from the scan.

More than likely 98 percent, you with your human eyes will not be able to tell the difference from the chip to the color they create. Sometimes there a glitches in graduation in shades/tones of red. But mostly 98 percent are spot on.

As was explained to me by my paint producer - the human eye is notoriously "fallible" when it comes to detecting color. Women are better than men on the basis of color. But men are better than women in things like sheen, gloss, the mechanics of the coating and a general sense of "duplication."

But the machines are better than either in basic color determination.

The paint producer says the human eye is the FINAL match - but their rationale is more one of "customer satisfaction" than actual closeness.

I would get the chip, get it scanned locally - and go with that for the mix.

Any differences seen when at the show you can put to "weathering." Which does exist. For red particularly.

An addenda: Historical colors are "problematical."

The original George H. Corliss engine at the 1876 Philadelphia Exhibition is questioned regarding what color it was originally painted.

It was a "black & white" photographic world. Pictures of the engine while being erected and in place in Philadelphia show a "grey" engine. Some of these pictures show an engine which is almost "white."




Later pix of the engine after it had been reinstalled at the Pullman Car works (and which drove the works until 1910) show a "black" engine. There is no mention of repainting in the literature.

It's really not possible to know what color the engine was painted originally. It was scrapped in 1910.

Just as it's not really possible to know what colors Ford Model As were painted originally.

Everything you know, or think you know, will be erased in your lifetime.

One way or another.

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Old 10-17-2020, 07:14 AM   #12
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Default Re: Paint recommendations

Hi Brent,
I am glad you made a comment about DuPont and their Nason Paint. I did not know Nason is no longer made.
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Old 10-17-2020, 07:52 AM   #13
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Default Re: Paint recommendations

What are your goals in your restoration?

If you are going for show correct then your path is different then look close then I want to drive and have fun.

Paint color is pretty subjective. The Paint Handbook gets you pretty darn close. Very few people can actually figure out colors in the end. Quite frankly you could take a perfect factory car to a show today and it would likely lose points because the judges do not know what is correct.

The original paint would have been 'muddy'. That is the pigments were not like what we have today. The paints today are just so much clearer and reflective even without trying. If you are going full points then you need to paint areas like the firewall with flattened paint and the exterior areas that were buff to a shine need to be buffed to be dulled some. BC/CC will just be too glossy no matter what you do.

As for the primers and such, it does not matter. You can get good quality undercoats from places like SPI. Where the most problems in painting come into play is not following directions. Just look at chips in the paints on cars at shows. It is always down to some layer. I bet if you read the directions and talk to the painter you will find out either they did not sand with the correct grit or they put paint on past the recoat window. Get the tech sheets and know the correct grit papers and times when you can safely recoat.

The comment above about not knowing the original colors, well actually I think they have a good clue. There have been many original examples of cars plus the paint chips through the ages. I know on a door on my car there was an area of original paint that did not get much oxygen or any sunlight. When I compared the paint chips with proper neutral colors around they were spot on. I will say I am not the best with colors, like most people, so I took it to an artist friend that could really see the colors that went into the paint.

Here is my favorite question. What is the correct color black for the fenders and such?
I learned there are many different blacks. They each have an undertone depending on how they got to black. You can have red, blue, yellow the list seems to go on along with the pages of black paint samples on the chart.
FWIW, I do not know what is the correct color black. I have heard opinions, but nothing solid.

Last I will say I am far from any kind of paint expert. I tried to learn as best I could. I have screwed up a lot of painting and I do not think I am alone in this. The best advice I have is to read the tech sheets telling how to properly use the paints and be cautious of advice that goes away from the sheets even from 'experts' working in the field. I have been given just wrong advice by guys working in the field for decades. This based on my talking to the manufacturers of the paints. (Brent is not one of them)
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Old 10-17-2020, 10:53 AM   #14
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Default Re: Paint recommendations

I have a question: Just how consistent were the factory colors? If in 1930 you took a door off a car made in January and put it on a car made in June, would the color match exactly? Likely not! So why all the fuss now about determining the exact shade when there was no exact shade?
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Old 10-17-2020, 11:03 AM   #15
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Default Re: Paint recommendations

Good point!
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Old 10-17-2020, 12:28 PM   #16
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I have a question: Just how consistent were the factory colors? If in 1930 you took a door off a car made in January and put it on a car made in June, would the color match exactly? Likely not! So why all the fuss now about determining the exact shade when there was no exact shade?
You also make an interesting observation. Nitrocellulose Lacquer paints were still in their infancy in 1930, and the Pigment technologies were everychanging, ...however what most people do not realize is that every component that was manufactured for the Model-A had a M-Specs (-material specification sheet) sheet on EVERY subcomponent of that item. For example, these M-Specs were so detailed in that it gave precise ingredients and mix ratios for every paint that was formulated. If it call for a certain pigment, it broke it down by each ingredient and the formula for that ingredient. When the buyers for Ford placed something out for bid, the supplier had to give data sheets on their product. On certain items the factory prints show they would give some latitude for the engineering department to make substitutes. Otherwise, all things had to match. Therefore, to answer your question, other than fading or environmental damage comparing a door made in January vs. June, they likely did match in tint and shade.
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Old 10-18-2020, 02:11 PM   #17
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Default Re: Paint recommendations

There is a lot of info for you to wade thru. My preference, which is worth just what you pay for it, is single stage on an old car.
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