Help diagnosing engine problem

[CWilson]

1930 CCPU 29 Motor 12volt

I was driving home from work at 45MPH when I lost all acceleration and the engine started to bog down. Within 100 yds I had lost all power and the engine died despite me having the accelerator to the floor. It started back up, but when I advanced the spark it died again. I got it started again by keeping the spark fully retarded, but when I put it in gear and let out the clutch it died again. I started it again, but this time it backfired, died and would not start again. Please forgive me in advance for any stupid questions, I'm still new to this. I am currently searching the archives, but any help in the right direction would be appreciated. Thanks

(I drove it to work the last 3 days and it ran like a champ up until the problem above)

Chris

[Brentwood Bob]

Start with spark at the spark plug, does it have a spark, next does it have fuel? is there fuel coming out of the drain plug at the bottom of the carb?
then we have something to go on.
Bob

[Mitch//pa]

did you try loosening the gas cap? sometimes thats all it is a vent issue.
otherwise
to figure out whats up you need to determine if its a spark or fuel problem

[jax55]

Are the points opening? Could be you wore the rubbing off. Any noise out of the ordinary when this happened? How about gas, any in the tank?
Guess we need a little more info to proceed, unless one of the gurus knows what happened.

[CWilson]

Originally Posted by Brentwood Bob

Start with spark at the spark plug, does it have a spark, next does it have fuel? is there fuel coming out of the drain plug at the bottom of the carb?
then we have something to go on.
Bob

I have fuel oming out of the bottom of the carb.

[CWilson]

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Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

did you try loosening the gas cap? sometimes thats all it is a vent issue.
otherwise
to figure out whats up you need to determine if its a spark or fuel problem

Yes I checked the gas cap.

[CWilson]

Originally Posted by jax55

Are the points opening? Could be you wore the rubbing off. Any noise out of the ordinary when this happened? How about gas, any in the tank?
Guess we need a little more info to proceed, unless one of the gurus knows what happened.

No noises, just a loss of power. Yes, I have gas in the tank.

[Larry Jenkins]

Check all fuel lines for some kind of obstruction. Your statement that the carb is leaking gas makes me think you have a plugged up fuel supply system of sorts..

Larry Jenkins

[KR500]

Check the points paying special attention to if the flat spring which gives the points their tension is not broken. Such a sudden change in performance is unusual.

[CWilson]

I removed a spark plug and with the plug wire attached, set it up against a head bolt. There was no spark.

[RandyinUtah]

You might check the screw on top of the cam and make sure it has not let the cam move out of place. I once had a repo cam which I could not keep tightened down and it would turn and slip out of place while driving and then the car would backfire and quit running.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Try a new condenser.

[CWilson]

Thanks for the help everyone. I'm going to buy a volt meter and try some things suggested in the archives. Wish I knew someone more knowledgeable than me close by!

[Barber31]

Have you checked the contacts on the points? Maybe they are getting fouled up and weakening the spark to nothing.

[loowiloowi]

Buy one of the Les Andrews books and study it while you fidget with your car. If you have much mechanical inclination you will soon start to understand. if you are truly new then let me explain that Les Andrews has been a Model A guru since the 70's or earlier and his books are excellent.

[Pilotdave]

Here's a link to a Model A club in Columbus: http://themodelaclub.org/sample-page/

Why not contact them and see if there's someone near you that can help?

[CWilson]

Originally Posted by loowiloowi

Buy one of the Les Andrews books and study it while you fidget with your car. If you have much mechanical inclination you will soon start to understand. if you are truly new then let me explain that Les Andrews has been a Model A guru since the 70's or earlier and his books are excellent.

I've got the books. Thanks

[Jacksonlll]

This video should help you. Just take your time and you will find the problem and be able to fix it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXA6izLrTOc
This other video is a description of the ignition system:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbHQ...cz4R0&index=23

[eagle]

Use a volt meter ACROSS the primary side of the coil. Turn the engine over slowly, when the points close the voltage should go to 6 volts, keep turning and when points open it should go to zero. Thats a good place to start, post results.

[rocket1]

always check the simple things first,hot spark,gas supply,well charged battery,then go from there.

[jthomas6]

Cable/wire from ignition switch to distributor grounding out???

[Rex_A_Lott]

This is about the most useless methodical troubleshooting thread I have seen in a long time.
While every suggestion is a somewhat valid one, its probably bit the owner before, you would do yourself a favor and search for a recent thread that said " No spark" or something like that.
SteveB31 and Mike V from Florida, IIRC both had good ways to diagnose your apparent no spark condition.
Otherwise you will be running around in circles.
Good Luck.

[Brentwood Bob]

Sounds like you are trying to follow up the things mentioned here.
Not too clear on the fuel side, but at least you have some.
Try the testing sequence Mike V has posted many times.
If the points wear, you would have no spark. Look at the gap of the points.
Do not start tearing into things until you determine what is wrong.
Bob

[rscardina]

As you can see by the responses on this thread, there are numerous possibilities. I had a similar issue coming home from an event and some club members helped me determine that my carb float was stuck. Using a wrench (the only tool I had at the time), we tapped the side of the carb and off I went. I haven't had the problem since.

[CWilson]

I have 6 volts @ both sides of the fuse block, both sides of junction box, and 6 volts @ both sides of the coil. I did as Mike V. suggested, opened the points with a piece of paper, removed the condenser and turned the ignition on and I have 6 volts @ the points. Next step from Mike V.

Remove the paper from the points and see that the points are closed. You should not have 0 volts at the points. If not,
The points are dirty or the distributor is not grounded well to the engine.

How do I know the points are closed? I shouldn't have 0 volts. What should I have?

Chris

[CWilson]

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Originally Posted by CWilson

I removed a spark plug and with the plug wire attached, set it up against a head bolt. There was no spark.

My apologies, I realized when I had my wife helping me turn the engine over I might not have had the key turned on. Tried it again with the key on, and I do have spark.

[JBill]

What you're experiencing is exasperating and a little depressing. You begin to think this thing will never run again! But stick with it, you'll find out what's wrong and fix it, and be wiser next time. Hope this is not useless information, Rex.

[CWilson]

Thankfully I do not become discouraged easily. I understand that it is a process of elimination, I'm just not sure of the methods, or what to check next if I have spark, and voltage everywhere I should.

[CWilson]

I tried starting with the choke full out for awhile then quickly pulled the plugs and I have wet plugs so it's getting gas.

[jax55]

Chris, you asked about how to know if the points are closed. Removed the cover with the coil wire in it, remove the rotor and "cap" with the plug leads attached to it.
Look at the rubbing block on the points, if it is on a flat on the distributor cam and the points are touching they are closed. Now use the crank and rotate the engine until the rubbing block is on top of the cam and see if the points are open (.018 to .022).
If they are still closed, set them and you may have found your problem. ;-)

[CWilson]

[Russell in Tulsa]

It looks like you have lots of "meat" on the points but the stationary point block appears cracked pretty bad. As others mentioned hand crank the engine until the points are fully opened and check the gap. It appears they may not open enough or at all due to the apparent wear on the rubbing block.

[CWilson]

Does this look like enough gap?

[CWilson]

With the points open or closed, I am still getting 6 volts on both sides of the coil with the key on.

[Royce P]

Looks like the points are dirty and do not open much.
1. What is the gap measurement when the points are full open?
2. Are the points shiny and clean where they make contact or are they grey and burned looking?

[Quigley1930]

With the dist cap and rotor off and key on do you have a spark at the points when you turn the engine over with the starter?

[ehardman]

I think you have a broken timing gear. take the cover off the right front of the engine and you will probably be able to see the problem. Do not try to start the engine before checking this or you may create serious problems with your valves! The timing gear is easy to replace. Just check Les Andrews or similar manual for instructions.

[ehardman]

I think you have a broken Timing gear. Remove the cover on the right front side of the engine to check. Turn the engine with a crank and watch motion of the gear. It is easy to change this gear,but use the suggested manuals as a guide.

[Tom Wesenberg]

With the points open see if you have 6 volts at the movable contact. If not, then check the sitch to see if both terminals have 6 volts.

The points ground contact mounting block should work, but also should be replaced because it's broken.

[31 Vicky]

If there is voltage on both sides of the coil with the points closed, the circuit is open between the coil and the points. Possibly the ignition switch, the ignition cable or the pig tail.

A's Always
Dave

[Rex_A_Lott]

Originally Posted by CWilson

My apologies, I realized when I had my wife helping me turn the engine over I might not have had the key turned on. Tried it again with the key on, and I do have spark.

Originally Posted by CWilson

I tried starting with the choke full out for awhile then quickly pulled the plugs and I have wet plugs so it's getting gas.

Based on these two statements, I'd guess its out of time, or its flooded. You shouldnt need the choke for more than one revolution of the motor. Looking at your pictures, I think you ought to go ahead and clean and re-gap the points.It appears the gap has closed up on them. Its been pointed out the clamp for the movable point is broken. I would check to see if you can freely turn the movable point WITHOUT loosening the screw. If you can turn this, it probably moved on you and started your problem, and you might as well fix it now, or it will keep eating your lunch. If its good and tight, loosen the clamp, clean and re-gap the points, and check the time.
WHEN you get ready to pull the upper plate, I would go ahead and pull the timing pin and bring it to the proper place to set the time, BEFORE you take it all apart. Take you a good closeup pic, like you have here, and then when you put it back it will be a lot easier to be sure you have everything back in the proper orientation.
Good Luck.

[CWilson]

I appreciate the efforts to get this figured out. I'll get it eventually. Just keep in mind that the problem was instant, not gradual. I don't know if that helps point to a particular thing breaking. Thanks everyone!

Is it advisable to upgrade to a modern upper distributor plate since I am replacing part anyway?

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by CWilson

I appreciate the efforts to get this figured out. I'll get it eventually. Just keep in mind that the problem was instant, not gradual. I don't know if that helps point to a particular thing breaking. Thanks everyone!

Is it advisable to upgrade to a modern upper distributor plate since I am replacing part anyway?

No, the modern upper plate is not the way to go.

The points block was likely broken when someone torqued down too tight on it. It only needs to be tight enough to keep the points screw from turning.

[Rex_A_Lott]

I agree with Tom and a lot of others, dont convert to the "new" (40 year old) points, they are difficult to find quality parts for now and you just open yourself up to a whole new set of problems.
Unfortunately you could still have an intermittent problem, where something checks good and then fails on the road. These can be the most difficult to find, and are the most frustrating. The aforementioned condenser and key switch are infamous for this, just keep that in mind.
A lot guys get themselves in deeper when they start replacing parts willy-nilly, often improperly, and then introduce multiple problems, when they had a simple thing to fix in the beginning. Dont be one of those guys.
Start on it afresh today, and let us know how you come out.
Oh, and your car did not "fail suddenly". You were able to fool with the spark and get it to go again. It just went downhill almighty fast. There is a difference.
Good Luck!

[Brentwood Bob]

You are now on track. We really appreciate feedback, so keep us in the loop.
Bob

[CWilson]

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Originally Posted by Rex_A_Lott

I agree with Tom and a lot of others, dont convert to the "new" (40 year old) points, they are difficult to find quality parts for now and you just open yourself up to a whole new set of problems.
Unfortunately you could still have an intermittent problem, where something checks good and then fails on the road. These can be the most difficult to find, and are the most frustrating. The aforementioned condenser and key switch are infamous for this, just keep that in mind.
A lot guys get themselves in deeper when they start replacing parts willy-nilly, often improperly, and then introduce multiple problems, when they had a simple thing to fix in the beginning. Dont be one of those guys.
Start on it afresh today, and let us know how you come out.
Oh, and your car did not "fail suddenly". You were able to fool with the spark and get it to go again. It just went downhill almighty fast. There is a difference.
Good Luck!

I was not able to get it to go again. The farmer down the road towed me home. Since the sudden loss of power, it will not run, and now will not start.

[CWilson]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

With the points open see if you have 6 volts at the movable contact. If not, then check the sitch to see if both terminals have 6 volts.

The points ground contact mounting block should work, but also should be replaced because it's broken.

If by movable contact you mean the arm with the contact on it, yes I have 6 volts there with it open. I hove 0 volts on the side with the threaded contact.

[CWilson]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

No, the modern upper plate is not the way to go.

The points block was likely broken when someone torqued down too tight on it. It only needs to be tight enough to keep the points screw from turning.

I will replace the block, but the point screw needed to be turned with a screw driver, it was not loose.

[CWilson]

I tried cleaning the points and adjusting the screw in a tad, then tried starting. no luck. I was in my garage and it was a little dark. I noticed when I moved the spark advance all the way up,(like I would normally do to start the truck) the dome light would get brighter. If I tried starting the truck with the spark advance all the way up (brighter light), it would not start. If I moved the spark down just a bit, the light would dim, but the truck would start. I mean barely start, and run like crap. With the truck not running, and the ignition on, if I moved the spark advance up and down, I could hear something electrical clicking from the distributor. Any thoughts?

[31 Vicky]

That may be the points closing or the pig tail shorting to the body.

A's Always
Dave

[Rex_A_Lott]

Look carefully all along the spark advance rod from the steering column to the distributor as you move it through its whole range of motion to make sure its not grounding out some how as you move it. It shouldnt be, of course, but its a quick check to make.
I agree with Dave, sounds like you need to pull the distributor and fix the pigtail, or make sure youre getting fire to the top plate correctly, if there happens to be the pigtail eliminator kit in there.
Good Luck

[Brentwood Bob]

Maybe time to rebuild the distributor. Good time to see if the local club members are available to walk you thru this. Bob

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

IF you have the $$$$'s, just buy a QUALITY rebuilt distriburor from BERT'S & study & rebuild the old one for a spare.
IF you BROKE, jist dial 1-800-BUSTER T!
Bill W.

[Jacksonlll]

You now have it narrowed down to that one circuit from the coil to the points. Something is broken or open.

[Mitch//pa]

you guys think its narrowed down??
by moving the spark lever up and down,,, may just be opening and closing the points and thats whats making the noise and dimming the lights
all normal
of course it could be the pigatail.
open the cap and look when moving the plate with key on and see.
thats all it takes

[CWilson]

What's a pigtail? I'm Model A stupid. If I remove the top plate, will I have to re-time the engine? Just wondering, I don't care as I need to learn anyway. Thanks again to all!

Chris

[Rex_A_Lott]

Originally Posted by CWilson

What's a pigtail? I'm Model A stupid. If I remove the top plate, will I have to re-time the engine? Just wondering, I don't care as I need to learn anyway. Thanks again to all!

Chris

Yes you will have to re-time it. The pigtail is what takes the fire from the bottom plate to the top plate.
You would do yourself a favor if you could get someone to help you do it the first time. Marco has a good procedure you can search for.
Good Luck

[CWilson]

I have been reading up on the timing procedure Marco has. Seems pretty straight forward.

[CWilson]

BINGO!!!!!


Thanks guys! I'm sure I'll have more questions to come.

Chris

[Bob C]

Vince has a fix for that on his web site. http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/adistlowerplate.htm

Bob

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

The more you dig into a dist, the less SPOOKY they are! Everyone should have a spare or two, to "PLAY" with.
Bill W.

[jthomas6]

Originally Posted by CWilson

BINGO!!!!!


Thanks guys! I'm sure I'll have more questions to come.

Chris

As I stated in reply #21, but was immediately informed that it was "useless" information.

[CWilson]

Originally Posted by jthomas6

As I stated in reply #21, but was immediately informed that it was "useless" information.

I appreciate the help.

Chris

[CWilson]

Ok, so spliced off a bit of the insulation from the broken end of the pig tail and temporarily crimped it into the connector. Reattached the wire, put everything back together in the EXACT way I took it apart without moving anything. Hit the starter and it immediately fired up and ran like before the sudden loss of power. SMOOOOOTHHH! I have tore the distributor apart again and will not drive it until I get the pig tail replaced. Do you need to remove the lower plate to replace the pig tail? Do you have to replace the lower plate to get a new pig tail? It looks like it is permanently attached to the lower plate.

I want to thank all of you that helped me get this figured out. Your knowledge is awesome. A sincere THANK YOU!!

Chris

[Tom Wesenberg]

If your lower plate is original, I would keep it and solder on a new flexible wire. Be sure to bend the terminal at the points end to a 90 degree angle so it doesn't contact the spring or cast iron. Marco shows a picture of this.

BTW, the proper way to solder on the new wire is to fold the first tab over the wire insulation, and only have a short uninsulated wire to solder to the next tab after it's folded over the bare wire.

Picture #59, what kind of cable do you have screwed into the distributor? It appears to be fabric covered. It should be a coiled spring. You might want to change it if it's something else.

[Rex_A_Lott]

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Originally Posted by jthomas6

As I stated in reply #21, but was immediately informed that it was "useless" information.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.
Even though you had the right answer, what about all the others that were wrong?
All I wanted to suggest was that he try using a proven method, instead of treating it like an Easter egg hunt.
Congrats to the OP, glad that you found the problem!

[Mitch//pa]

all the answers were shotgunning guesses incld mine as a proper diagnoisis was not performed.

using a voltmeter or even a basic testlight, plus a spark tester it could have located in 5 minutes

i also am glad Chris found the issue.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by CWilson

Ok, so spliced off a bit of the insulation from the broken end of the pig tail and temporarily crimped it into the connector. Reattached the wire, put everything back together in the EXACT way I took it apart without moving anything. Hit the starter and it immediately fired up and ran like before the sudden loss of power. SMOOOOOTHHH! I have tore the distributor apart again and will not drive it until I get the pig tail replaced. Do you need to remove the lower plate to replace the pig tail? Do you have to replace the lower plate to get a new pig tail? It looks like it is permanently attached to the lower plate.

I want to thank all of you that helped me get this figured out. Your knowledge is awesome. A sincere THANK YOU!!

Chris

Wilson,
When I needed a LONGER, FLEXIBLE wire for Minerva, I just ripped apart a flat 110 volt extension cord & it worked well. I also use them to make jumper leads & to replace the frayed wire on my OOOOOLD Signal Stat test light, they're soft, durable & last "FOREVER"----The wire inside, is much like the "100 strand" wire!
Bill W.

[CWilson]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

a proper diagnoisis was not performed.

using a voltmeter or even a basic testlight, plus a spark tester it could have located in 5 minutes

Sure it could have been located in 5 minutes, if you know what you are doing. I don't know what I'm doing, so It took 3 days. I tried to "properly" diagnose it by using Mike V. Florida's method, which got me to the point of knowing I had voltage on one side of the points, but not on the other. While I may not have completely understood what I was supposed to be doing at the time, I know now. I know how the ignition system works, the distributor and all its parts, and I know how to "properly" diagnose problems in the future. Thanks to those whose posts I read in the archives, and thanks to those who helped me apply that information in this thread. I learned a lot.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by CWilson

Sure it could have been located in 5 minutes, if you know what you are doing. I don't know what I'm doing, so It took 3 days. I tried to "properly" diagnose it by using Mike V. Florida's method, which got me to the point of knowing I had voltage on one side of the points, but not on the other. While I may not have completely understood what I was supposed to be doing at the time, I know now. I know how the ignition system works, the distributor and all its parts, and I know how to "properly" diagnose problems in the future. Thanks to those whose posts I read in the archives, and thanks to those who helped me apply that information in this thread. I learned a lot.

Chris you did a fine job
there was an intermittent contact at the pigtail break causing a on and off spark condition

[jax55]

Congratulation Chris. Sometimes it takes awhile to figure something out, and not to disparage anyone who had in put on this post... everyone had to start figuring out Model A's somewhere. No one I have met had all the knowledge immediately.
This forum is a wealth of information and has very knowledgeable folks who are happy to help.
I am fairly new to these cars too, and have learned A LOT from this site and by doing all I can to learn how things work and also fix them when they break. I'll bet if this ever happens to your car again, you will have a lot more success in diagnosing it quickly and easily.

[Brentwood Bob]

Appreciate the followup, and your tenacity. Bob

[Greg Jones]

Thank you for following up and letting everyone know what the issue was. Too often a guy reports a problem, we all jump in and offer a number of possible solutions (sometimes too many, yeah) but never get a follow up on the problem and how it was resolved. I for one appreciate that.

[a-bone newby]

one more thing check if distribitor is turning as my can gear went and I checked all things first then the rotation CAM GEAR its fiber strips and its common

[marc hildebrant]

Chris,

Good work on solving your problem. After some time goes on, you can help others that are new to this hobby.

Remember that this forum is open to all types of people and some, while trying to help, forget what it's like to be "brand new" to working on cars.

Marc