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03-01-2019, 12:18 AM | #1 |
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: central Arkansas
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Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened
I had rear axle housings machined and installed replacement races in 08.Car has 1600 miles on it and inspected brakes to discover grease colored like silver.After inspection found wear on housing races only.Checked them for hardness with a file and their soft.I removed the sleeves and the housings are both machined to 1.752”.The sleeves appear to have had an inner diameter of 1.750”.purchased replacements from Bert’s and they are 1.695” inner diameter.
I moved to Ar in 15 so I have to find someone here to have them both remachined .A local machinest wants a min of $170.00 each to do the job.I was hoping to find sleeves the same size as the ones I removed but that may be impossible.Not saying the price is to high ,just was hoping to not have to Machine the housings again.Has anyone run across sleeves with a 1.750 inner diameter? |
03-01-2019, 08:31 AM | #2 |
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Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened
You seem to have already removed the sleeve. Congratulations on a job difficult at best. (One might question the quality of the machinist if one can simply "remove" a sleeve - although you do indicate 0.002 interference - which might be correct for a "solid" interference fit - i.e. a stub in a hole without stretch.)
It would be more normal to "machine" the existing sleeves off. Early Model A's had the bearing seat "sleeved" by Ford. Henry dropped the sleeves in cost savings for later cars. So one might encounter either version. A good machinist is aware of the possibility of stretch of the sleeve - and adds a bit more to account for it. In my case the sleeve came with instructions for the final outside diameter - which was actually a "target" with (IIRC) about 0.005 finished diameter. Also suggested OD of the machining to achieve the final OD given press size/use of Loctite/lubricant. I think you're going to have to pony up to the bar on this one. Your machinist is a trifle expensive. Its a 2 hour job on a lathe with carbide tools, but not a terribly demanding one. So he's making about $85 an hour - which is not that far out of whack in today's professional world. Of course Berts may have entire trumpet housings already prepared for less than the cost of sleeve and installation. And the best part is they come with "satisfaction guaranteed," which is unlikely to be afforded by your machinist given the specifics of the job. ("Gee, I don't do this for a living.") A new housing(s) would require one to "totally set-up" the rear end (gear bluing, gasket thicknesses, etc.) But that is YOUR work - if you have the capability. Maybe a Trade School shop class? Do they still have these things? In my case a 1908 Flather lathe and high speed tool would not touch the sleeve. I farmed this out to a machinist with carbide tooling - he charged me $24 for one, including pressing - in 1978. Joe K
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03-01-2019, 04:40 PM | #3 |
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Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened
Thanks for the reply Joe.Im use to getting pressed on races off having worked on Honda cars professionally for 30 + years.I just found a machine shop 4 miles from my house who came highly recommended.He is going to do them both for $125.00 .Problem solved. Dennis
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03-01-2019, 04:48 PM | #4 |
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Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened
I think you're doing the right thing using Bert's sleeves. They are thicker and hardened to a reasonable degree. They will last. I haven't seen a decent sleeve from any of the other vendors. I'd also check the hubs and rollers. They have been running in that contaminated grease for long enough that they might be damaged too.
I've just done a rear end and I used good hard sleeves, original rollers in good nick (about .001 to .0015" wear) and new hubs. I'm expecting good service.
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03-02-2019, 04:37 PM | #5 | |
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Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened
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03-02-2019, 04:58 PM | #6 | |
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Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened
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03-02-2019, 05:15 PM | #7 |
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Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened
Yes,I purchased the V8 bearings.When I originally rebuilt the rear axle assembly in 2008 new hubs were not available.I put new cast iron drums on the old hubs and used the hub saver races and v8 bearings.
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03-02-2019, 06:15 PM | #8 | |
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Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened
Quote:
IIRC the V8 bearings were about half the cost of the originals. But add to that the price of sleeves. When I was at this point the cost difference was there - but not enough to get me away from original. Joe K
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03-02-2019, 03:00 PM | #9 |
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Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened
I know of someone who had the same problem with a reputable repro parts house.
They just Pooh-pooh'ed it. He reported it to one of the major Model A magizines...same thing. Guess they did not want to loose their advertising business!!! Pluck |
03-03-2019, 06:29 PM | #10 |
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Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened
Have there been problems with the new V8 bearings?
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03-03-2019, 06:34 PM | #11 |
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Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened
Not that I'm aware. They may even be stronger/longer lived because of the smaller seal area/better control of entrance contamination.
They certainly were used on a "higher horsepower" application. (i.e. compare V8 capability to 4 cylinder capability) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_flathead_V8_engine (95 horsepower in 1939) Joe K
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03-04-2019, 01:09 AM | #12 |
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Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened
Over the years of rebuilding rear axle assemblies I have encountered unserviceable hubs on the ends of the axle housings. There was a local shop that could turn down the hubs and press on hardened sleeves. He supplied the sleeves. At first his price was reasonable, but he kept increasing it until he priced himself out of the market and finally went out of business.
One piece of advice he gave me, which I believe is important, is to not use the reproduction rear wheel bearings the suppliers sell. The roller elements are much too hard and will tear the sleeves up. Find some originals. Soon after Bratton's started offering hardened sleeves. They sell for about $25 each and I have been using them for years. I found a shop that will turn down the hub and press the sleeve on for $80 each and have been going this route for a number of years. I also advise my customers to find some original rear wheel bearings. There are ample still around and they were over-engineered and perform well. I have not had any customers comeback with a sad tale of a hub failure, But of course many of these cars are not driven often. The original wheel bearings have a spiral in each element and appear to be of a softer material. I see them at swap meets and are sometimes found in old discarder drums. They can usually be had for little or nothing. Tom Endy |
03-04-2019, 09:39 AM | #13 | |
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Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened
Quote:
We have a family member who did his "student interneship" with Timken. Having heard him expound at length about the quality checks (his particular specialty) I can positively say that Timken is one of the few American companies who have maintained or even improved their US and dare I say world position in the field. My own field, Nuclear Power Plant engineering and startup, appreciated that because ANY product of Timken could be provided with "Nuclear Quality Assurance" for pretty much the cost of the paperwork - and involved nothing other than assembling the paper and sending them to you. We reasoned that the bearings are ALL made already to the ultimate quality, and all are identical origin, production, and documentation wise. As I say - Go Timken - an American Success Story. Not saying you won't pay for it - that also is what Americans do - get their piece of your hide. Joe K Edit: somewhere here I have assembled in a box the COMPLETE set of Timken Cone Bearings to do a rear end. Almost $400 in bearings done in Timken which the large cones & race units run about $55 a copy. I was tempted at first to do the "aftermarket" bearing which run $25-35 depending on source. But wisely saved up for the full set.
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03-04-2019, 03:12 PM | #14 |
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Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened
Hello,
the circulating lubricating grooves are not good! At that time in the past designers thought these grooves were necessary for the constant fat distribution. Today it is known that these grooves interfere with the hydrodynamic pressure resistance of the lubricating film. Therefore, all bearings have a smooth surface with a little rough-depth. (Never polished!)
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03-05-2019, 12:12 PM | #15 |
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Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened
I posted this on another thread not long ago:
"Just to add a side note: the "grooves" in the original rollers, though they may conduct lubricant across the bearing, are not grooves at all. I ran across this in an old New Departure catalog. The rollers are made of wound strip stock. They are deliberately designed that way. They are shock absorbing rollers! When hit with a heavy shock they avoid high contact stress by expanding axially. Replacement bearings are usually solid rollers with much less shock absorbing capability, but cheaper to produce." I would say the original manufacturer for Ford was Hyatt, not Timken. |
03-05-2019, 05:28 PM | #16 |
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Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened
Arnold, I worked in an engine recon shop in the 70,s we had a piston expander,it was a set of fingers with a curved end the was driven by a motor and you sat the piston on two rollers and went to town inside the piston with the fingers going up and down flat out,you could usually get about .002,BUt after a while in use the pistons always cracked,
Customers would come in and ask for a set of rings and blow the pistons up. Lawrie |
03-05-2019, 08:10 PM | #17 | |
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Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened
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I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood. Last edited by Synchro909; 03-08-2019 at 04:18 PM. |
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03-06-2019, 09:33 AM | #18 |
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Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened
The 1930 engine I pulled out of a Vermont farmer's back lot had a sort of mechanical internal spring added to each piston. It sort of "yoked" around the piston pin so they can't come loose. By removing the center lock pin, the expander could be compressed with a pair of vise-grips and withdrawn. They had a fair amount of spring to them - almost like wear your safety glasses and shield lest they squirm out of the vise-grips and hit you in the kisser.
I kept them but more as a conversation piece - I don't think I would use them. Joe K
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03-06-2019, 11:55 AM | #19 |
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Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened
They used to knurl pistons w/special tools to expand them,
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03-06-2019, 04:30 PM | #20 |
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Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened
I just last week checked the internal condition of a spare engine I have from the US. The pistons in it had been treated that way. I put it back together without changing anything.
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