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Old 04-25-2017, 04:05 PM   #1
Dave1931Pickup
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Default Engine Won't Fit

Hi Guys
This will probably sound real stupid but last Sunday was the big day to install my my engine in the frame, but it would not fit. A little background history. The engine was removed from my 1931 Closed Cab Pickup in 1966 for the start of the restoration process. So now after fifty plus years I have totally rebuilt it. (life got in the way for a little while) The frame has been gone through and everything straightened, repaired and powder coated. In '66 a NOS front crossmember was purchased from Little Dearborn in Minneapolis and riveted in.
Here is the problem. The front engine mount yoke stud is pushed all the way forward in the crossmember hole that it goes through. The rear flywheel housing bolt holes that mate with the frame engine mounts are more than half of a hole too far back in relation with the frame mounts. The frame mounts have new rubber motor mount pads purchased from Brattons. The frame is bare of any other parts and sitting on jack stands on the floor.
Other than the early solid mount front crossmember, which I don't have, was there any other front crossmember used? My memory(what's left of it) tells me that the new crossmember was the same as the old one. Or was it? I don't remember.
Ideas please. Thanks ,Dave
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Old 04-25-2017, 04:19 PM   #2
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

You migh t have the mounts mixed up right and left. I think they are handed. I'm sure the experts in this are will chime in.
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Old 04-25-2017, 04:44 PM   #3
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

Rear engine mounts A-5090-B are equivalent - 2 required thus per car.

Front engine mount backwards?

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Old 04-25-2017, 05:01 PM   #4
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

The front engine mount will only fit one way. If it is on backwards it will not seat correctly on the front timing gear cover.
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Old 04-25-2017, 05:32 PM   #5
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

Gotta be in that front crossmember replacement then. Do you still have the old piece to do a comparison?

If need be someone here (maybe me) can do some "measuring" of a non-altered frame. In fact someone may have already done some measuring and it got written up in one of the magazines (location of rivet holes major body mount points, etc?)

Pix may help. Can you get a bright light and camera pix which will show the relative position of the engine support mount hole in the bottom of the front cross-member and its relation to the "gutter/depressed area" it sits in?

I have three frames upstairs I can eyeball if I have your pix.

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Old 04-25-2017, 05:33 PM   #6
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

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This is not a great picture but I think if the rear engine mount were upside down the holes to the flywheel housing would not line up...
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Old 04-25-2017, 05:36 PM   #7
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

And the "open side" of those rear engine supports point to the rear of the car?

Just thinking...

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Old 04-25-2017, 06:07 PM   #8
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

How much room do you have between the firewall and the back of the engine?
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Old 04-25-2017, 06:21 PM   #9
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

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Originally Posted by denniskliesen View Post
How much room do you have between the firewall and the back of the engine?
I think the frame is bare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave1931Pickup;
The frame is bare of any other parts and sitting on jack stands on the floor.
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Old 04-25-2017, 06:22 PM   #10
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

I had a similar problem on my install. It was suggested by several guys to trim the rubber motor mount pads. That and a hydraulic jack to spread the frame a rch did the trick.
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Old 04-25-2017, 06:24 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by RawhideKid View Post
I think the frame is bare.
Oh yeah DUH!! I was looking at 1955cj5's picture.
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Old 04-25-2017, 08:32 PM   #12
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

The rear engine mounts are the same left and right. That is why there are 6 holes for the frame bolts and only 3 are used. The open area faces to the rear of the car.
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Old 04-25-2017, 08:44 PM   #13
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The rear engine mounts are the same left and right. That is why there are 6 holes for the frame bolts and only 3 are used. The open area faces to the rear of the car.
Not to hijack this thread, but Bill, can the rear mounts be mounted with the open area to the front since I have not had mine apart?
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Old 04-25-2017, 08:47 PM   #14
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

Most likely the rear motor mounts are installed backwards. Possible, but not likely, a 1928 front crossmember installed. Photos would help us all help you.
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Old 04-25-2017, 09:41 PM   #15
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

I'm with Joe and Steve. Motor mounts may be backwards. Don't think you need to switch sides, just rotate them 180 degrees.
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Old 04-25-2017, 10:11 PM   #16
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

Thanks everyone. I will take some pictures and post them tomorrow. Right now I have the open side of the rear mounts facing to the back. I thought that is the way I saw them in some other pictures.
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Old 04-25-2017, 10:17 PM   #17
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

Any chance the front motor mount yoke had the stud replaced and welded in the wrong location, or the yoke is simply bent?
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:36 AM   #18
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

The rear mounts can be installed backwards, but the engine would be in the wrong position, as the engine mounting holes are more towards the open end than the closed end. The open area must face to the rear of the car.
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Old 04-26-2017, 11:15 AM   #19
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

I still suspect the hole in the front crossmember is in the wrong position. Attached are some pictures of it and the rear motor mounts which I believe are mounted correctly. The hole in the front crossmember is very close to the rear vertical flange. It is hard to get a good measurement because of the curved area between the vertical flange and the hole but it is somewhere between 11/16" and 3/4" from the inside of the flange to the center of the hole.
Thanks for every ones help, Dave
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Old 04-26-2017, 11:36 AM   #20
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

Take a look at this page;
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...member.996441/
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Old 04-26-2017, 12:06 PM   #21
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

Is this frame a 31? Your rear mounts appear to be correct looking at the first picture. If memory serves me correct, there were small tube spacers in the 3 holes either between the engine mount and frame or on the outside of the frame between the plate and frame with the rubber pad between. The only other thing could be the rivet holes were different on your crossmembers.
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Old 04-26-2017, 12:53 PM   #22
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

It won't affect the fore and aft position, but the rubber pad for the outside of the rear motor mount looks a bit thick. Some have mentioned that pads are too thick from some of the dealers, and I've mentioned that the last two sets of pads I bought from Snyder's have been a perfect fit.

BTW, I got my new Bratton's catalog a few weeks ago, but still no Snyder's. I'll have to give them a call.
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Old 04-26-2017, 01:27 PM   #23
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

I had not mentioned that I have tried two different front engine mounts. One forged one and and my original stamped steel one which is correct for for my '31. I have compared both and there is only 1/16" difference between the stud location. The rear rubber mounts are new from Brattons and are a little thick but I only had to spread the frame 1/8" with a porta power for the flywheel housing to slip in. When the porta power was released almost all of the 1/8" disappeared. The rear mounts have new steel spacers in them so that is not any part of the problem.

BTW I received both Brattons and Snyders catalogs on the same day.
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Old 04-26-2017, 01:43 PM   #24
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

Quote:
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...BTW I received both Brattons and Snyders catalogs on the same day.
Same here. Also noticed that they were both printed by the same print shop.
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Old 04-26-2017, 02:22 PM   #25
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

when i slipped my engine in my AA i mounted the yoke to the timing cover but left the bolts a few turns loose so i could pull it forward and back. I got the top two rear mount bolts in and let it pivot down on those. More often than not the rear mounts cracked and were welded - were they straightened prior to welding? who knows...

My new to me yoke in my bolted in new to me crossmember with new to me rear mounts and new to me engine all came together like a big puzzle with little issue...

is your timing cover mounting ears flat? I had to grind the paint off my cover and the top of the yoke as its a tight fit so maybe your paint is preventing the yoke from sitting 100% flat against the ears. That would prevent it from sitting flush for sure and make things appear "bent" or not located correctly. Hover the engine above the frame, and bolt the yoke up and examine if its 100% flat and square against the ears!
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:34 PM   #26
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Dave,
I've been following this thread for awhile and one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the wishbone fitment. It's not just the front and rear motor mount but the wishbone ball and socket that all have to align. If the cross member hole is off the wishbone ball should be off the same amount on the flywheel housing.
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Old 04-27-2017, 07:17 PM   #27
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

Do you have the correct front cross member? If I remember correctly, the 1928/29 were different than the 1930/31.
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Old 04-27-2017, 07:29 PM   #28
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Do you have the correct front cross member? If I remember correctly, the 1928/29 were different than the 1930/31.
only difference is the height in the radiator mounting area - dimensions are exactly the same.
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Old 04-27-2017, 07:46 PM   #29
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Is this frame a 31? Your rear mounts appear to be correct looking at the first picture. If memory serves me correct, there were small tube spacers in the 3 holes either between the engine mount and frame or on the outside of the frame between the plate and frame with the rubber pad between. The only other thing could be the rivet holes were different on your crossmembers.
I have seen in the Parts Price List the spacers (A5093) and their application years (1928-31)

But I can't see anything in my literature about installing these, or what the purpose is. Rick Freeman (1970s guide) and Les Andrews (2000s guide) say nothing about assembling these.

Well, actually I think I know the purpose: to prevent the three bracket to frame bolts from "crushing" the rubber and making what should be a resilient mount into a solid mount? Thus the rear engine mount brackets become more a part of the motor than a part of the frame (and kind of hints at the fallacy of "float-a-motor" which tend to transfer motor torque loading to the frame center cross member.)

Does anyone have experience or documentation for these? My frame was "reconditioned" with Naval Jelly and a paintbrush and without removing the engine supports.

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Old 04-27-2017, 07:47 PM   #30
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Can you provide a photo of the front yoke ? see post 17. Perhaps someone can provide you some dimensions of the front cross member to rear motor mounts or other frame elements or the original frame factory dwg.
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Old 04-30-2017, 09:38 AM   #31
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Sorry for the slow response to every one for all of your suggestions. Real work, the kind you get paid for, and the death of a friend when a tree fell on him has slowed my progress.The problem has been solved. The rear motor mount pads were purchased from Brattons. They advertise them as being made to the Ford blueprint. I'm not going to argue as to whether Brattons or Snyders are are more correct. I'm sure both are good.

Here is what I found and the mistake I made. When I originally installed the rear motor mounts I bolted them in tight. By doing so the new rubber pads caused the motor mounts to become skewed in the frame causing the the holes to not line up with the threaded holes in the flywheel housing.

The fix was real easy. loosen up the rear motor mount bolts to the frame so the mounts can float and allow every thing to bolt together. I also loosened the front engine mount bolts to allow for more freedom when dropping in the engine. After everything was bolted together loosely and the engine in position I tightened all of the bolts.

Attached is a picture comparing the stud position of the two styles of the front engine mount. Not much difference. Even though I like the forged version better I used the stamped steel one because it it correct for my '31.

Once again thanks for every ones help, Dave
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Old 04-30-2017, 10:26 AM   #32
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

Your wife is going to be angry when she finds that Model A chassis on the kitchen floor...





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Old 04-30-2017, 12:09 PM   #33
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Your frame & engine look beautiful.
I would have swore that the problem is your shop is just too clean.

Good idea having those orange cones on the leg busters.

Are you going to use the 4 blade fan? Some guys have had blades break on them.

Not too bad for just your chassis and engine, but I got rid of all my stamped steel 3 leg jack stands years ago, after one collapsed on me. Plus, they aren't near as stable as the heavy 4 leg stands. I now have several 4 leg stands with the cast post that ratchets up.
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Old 04-30-2017, 12:21 PM   #34
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

something my dad always says " don't tighten the first bolt until the last one is in" [in a series or part group not a whole car]
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Old 04-30-2017, 12:40 PM   #35
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Good for you! I was going to post something, reread what I was going to post, then decided that my post would get me some timeout. Your project and your shop look too nice, I can help you mess it up :-)
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Old 04-30-2017, 12:45 PM   #36
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

I would only echo what others have said about your great job and clean shop. I would, however, caution you on the use of that style/type of jack stand. They have a great history of failing at the time least expected.
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Old 04-30-2017, 08:17 PM   #37
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred K-OR View Post
Do you have the correct front cross member? If I remember correctly, the 1928/29 were different than the 1930/31.
I was under the same impression. Somewhere in the deep recesses of my brain I seem to recall that there was a difference between the 28/29 & 30/31 and not only in the radiator mount position. Maybe the rivot points did also differ.
If someone has both a known 28/29 and 30/31 chassis that are bare can take accurate measurements to confirm one way or the other.
PS: I would be dead meat if I tried to bring my projects into the house. Wish you luck with your project. The standard of your work looks magnificent.
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Old 04-30-2017, 09:50 PM   #38
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The entire chassis and running gear minus any body or sheet metal have been sitting on those jack stands for fifty years so at this point in time I think they will hold a bare frame and engine for a little longer. Besides the new coat of paint should hold them together for another fifty.

Thanks for all of the good comments on my work. The resto has been a long time coming.

BTW, my wife is accustomed to having race engines in the living room for coffee tables and spare parts in the bedroom for storage.

Thanks, Dave
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Old 04-30-2017, 10:42 PM   #39
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Default Re: Engine Won't Fit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave1931Pickup View Post
I still suspect the hole in the front crossmember is in the wrong position. Attached are some pictures of it and the rear motor mounts which I believe are mounted correctly. The hole in the front crossmember is very close to the rear vertical flange. It is hard to get a good measurement because of the curved area between the vertical flange and the hole but it is somewhere between 11/16" and 3/4" from the inside of the flange to the center of the hole.
Thanks for every ones help, Dave
Looks perfect.
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Old 05-01-2017, 12:38 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Dave1931Pickup View Post
The entire chassis and running gear minus any body or sheet metal have been sitting on those jack stands for fifty years so at this point in time I think they will hold a bare frame and engine for a little longer. Besides the new coat of paint should hold them together for another fifty.

Thanks for all of the good comments on my work. The resto has been a long time coming.

BTW, my wife is accustomed to having race engines in the living room for coffee tables and spare parts in the bedroom for storage.

Thanks, Dave
You better hang onto that wife! spare parts in the bedroom... that's unheard of.
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Old 05-01-2017, 03:50 PM   #41
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I have a bachelor friend that has been collecting primo parts for years. He has a perfect roadster decklid under the bed. There are two cleaning ladies, that can barely speak English, cleaning his house. One of them is running the vacuum extension under the bed hitting the deck lid. He hears the thunk sound from the other room, and runs into the bedroom yelling at the top of his lungs stop, scaring the heck out of the two women. I'll bet they are still talking about this strange man with car parts stashed all over his house.
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