Front Engine Mount Problem

[Dave1931Pickup]

I'm putting together the rebuilt engine for my "31 Pickup. The engine has a new Burlington Crankshaft, new Crank Pulley from Brattons and a new Front Engine Support also from Brattons. The problem I have is that the Engine Support is rubbing on the Crank Pulley. The Crank Pulley is seated solidly against the Oil Slinger and Timing Gear. There is 1" between the Timing Gear Cover and the rear of the Pulley where the machined area that fits on the crank stops. I have compared the new forged Support with the old stamped steel support (which I didn't like) and both have the same offset. The stamped steel support also rubs on the Pulley. Walt Bratton said that he has not received any bad Pulleys so my original thought of a bad casting is not valid. Since the engine was taken apart "many moons ago" I don't remember what clearance there was between the Support and the Pulley. The Front Timing Gear Cover where the Support sits is the correct one and compares to two others that I have. Ideas please before I get out the Die Grinder and Drum Sander. I took pictures but now I can't get them out of my phone. Bad USB Port I think. Another problem to deal with.

[Dennis Pereira]

Just a thought is the support backwards ?

[SeaSlugs]

are you using the ford factory front engine mount spring setup? are you using stock rear mounts?

[Bob Bidonde]

This problem is not uncommon, and I have had it more than once. In one instance, the pulley on my Coupe departed the crankshaft.
> I find that the reproduction pulley has thicker spokes than the original. Also the 2-piece pulley may have a shorter shaft collar than the original pulley which was 1-piece. I also found some reproduction pulleys that do not run true; that the belt sheath is not 90 degrees to the crankshaft axis.
> Be sure that the oil slinger is not missing on the crankshaft.
> Be sure that the front engine cover is the correct one for the Model A.
> Check to see if the front crossmember is correct for your truck, and that it is tight in the frame and not cracked.
> Convince yourself that the engine is correctly situated in the frame. Loosen the rear engine mounts and adjust the engine so that it is on a 3 to 3.5 degree slope with its front high.
> Check to see that the spring stud on the mounting bracket is vertical, and it is at the center of the hole in the front crossmember. The front engine mount may need some bending.
> If the above do not solve your problem, shim the pulley forward with washers.

[FRANK PKNY]

Just a thought, does the new pully set up on the crank line up with the water pump pulley?

[Dave1931Pickup]

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I failed to mention that the engine is still on the engine stand and not mounted in the truck. If I turn the Support around then it doesn't sit correctly on the Front Timing Gear Cover and a portion of it interferes with the Oil Pan so I believe it is mounted correctly. I'm leaning to the idea of of the reproduction Pulley having thicker spokes. How much clearance should there be? Would I be able to get the Pulley back on without having to remove the Oil Pan if I were to take it off and machine the spokes? Thanks for every ones help.

[Dave1931Pickup]

Yes, the Water Pump Pulley and the Crank Pulley are in line.

[rocket1]

I prefer original parts or period replacement parts,with todays after market parts you can run into all kinds of problems,a thought,is it possible to install the crank slinger in backwards?

[FRANK PKNY]

Dave the pulley should come off without taking off the pan, if my mind serves me correctly! Would be easy with a puller with the engine out on a stand. I don't remember any lip on the pulley to cause it not to . We just did one with the engine in that had a badly damages pulley. Do you have an original one to compare it to? That would be a good starting point. As far as clearance is concerned the crank shaft should not move back more than the prescribed end play on the main bearing clearance. I don't have my book here so you will need to check that. Frank PKNY

[FRANK PKNY]

HERE YOU GO. I didn't want to go my my old heads memories. Looked it up . REAR OIL SEAL Question: I have a serious oil leak on the rear main bearing and would like to replace the seal with a modern seal like advertised in the Parts catalog part no. 6328-A. My question is what kind of machining is required to install this part.
Answer: I strongly urge you not to do that. Most seals require removal of the crank and having a groove ground for the seal. I have seen too many of these fail. You will probably be replacing the seal often if that's the route you take. The answer is not an after market seal. That's not correcting the problem. The Model A will not leak oil if the Mains are set up correctly. 99.9% of the time the rear oil leak is because the rear main Babbitt is cracked and/or too much clearance due to wear at the rear main bearing cap. You need to pull the engine and inspect the rear main Babbitt bearing. Make sure the Babbitt in the block and the bearing cap is not cracked or broken. If cracked or broken, Babbitt must be replaced. Make sure the oil return tube on the rear main bearing cap is in place and is clear (not clogged). Then install the rear main bearing cap with only .001" clearance. The last thing to check is end play of the crank. There should be no more than .004" end play. More end play than that and the crank acts like a pump and pushes the oil out the rear main as it moves back and forth. When the Model A main bearings are set correctly, it will not leak oil. I have three Model A's and have put many miles on them and they do not leak oil. (maybe a small finger print size drop after a long hard trip).
-- Les Andrews, 1999 Technical Director

[CWPASADENA]

I have run into several instances lately where a repo pulley will interfere with the front engine mount.

An easy fix is remove a little material on the engine mount where the interference is.

Easy to do with the engine on the stand.

I have used Brattons two piece pulley with out a problem.

Certainly, I would prefer to use NOS or good used original parts but these are not always readily available.

Chris W.

[aermotor]

I had the same problem. The run out on the pulley outer diameter was fine. One spoke missed, the next barely hit and the third hit to the point of leaving a 1/8" groove. By chance I had installed the pulley with the spoke that missed next to the motor mount and did not see the interference until the engine was installed and ran. The vendor replaced and did not want the old one back and sent me a new one without any shipping charge - clearance was fine w/o grinding on the mount. I elected not to use the two piece because of the machining required to make it 2 piece to begin with and I figured it would need to be replaced as a unit anyway. Moral of the story - don't insist on busting the original like I did and rotate the engine to make sure all the spokes clear.

John

[Flathead]

The new pulleys will rub. I learned this the hard way.

[SeaSlugs]

I used snyders 2 piece pulley without issue.

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by SeaSlugs

I used snyders 2 piece pulley without issue.

I think that the 2 piece was designed so that the front piece could be replaced in the future without lifting the engine. Will that be possible, say 10 years from now, considering that the two parts are machined?

John

[Glen in Hillman MI]

If you are using the two spring mount, with the dimpled spring alignment strip used at the bottom, you may have it backwards and need to do a half turn with it. I have made this mistake before and helped a few other model A'ers who also installed it backwards. Glen

[Dave1931Pickup]

Thanks to all who replied. I do prefer to use stock vs. reproduction parts, but as everyone knows they are getting harder to find in good condition. Frank PKNY, I know that I can get the pulley off without taking off the oil pan. My Question was "can I get the pulley back on without taking off the oil pan". I would be concerned about the rope seals in the front timing gear cover and the oil pan. I would not want to push them into the pan cavity or damage them so I don't get a good seal. I know that I'm lazy but after sealing the pan with Aviation Form A Gasket I don't relish the thought of re-doing it.
Dave

[Tom Wesenberg]

Put grease on the pulley sleeve, and the taper should let it push into place without hurting the seals.

[Dave1931Pickup]

Thanks Tom. That was my thought, but I always question my thinking so it was good to hear it from someone else. Just for your info I purchased the truck in 1963 in New Hope. It was my first "car".
Thanks, Dave

[FRANK PKNY]

Correct Tom, I have done this many times. When the seal is new you may a a bit more resistance, but as long as the seal is seated well , I don't see any problem. The link I posted has a mention of the end play. I personally favor close to .001. Less says no more than .004 Model A's have a weak spot here because of the heavy flywheel, when you have a bunch of end play it beats on the thrust part of the bearing every time you apply and let off the clutch. I have been successful with .oooo end play and just run in the bearing like Henry did with the model T engines. But I feel .001 is a good safe bet. The Aviation gasket cement should stay pliable for many months, If you get what you think is to much resistance when putting the pulley back in, just loosen the bolts several turns. carefully pry the front of the pan down a bit. That would allow an esy insertion.

[Dave1931Pickup]

Thanks Frank, I'm going to remove the pulley and machine off a little on the spokes to get the clearance needed between the mount and pulley.
Thanks for your time, Dave

[Dave1931Pickup]

Thanks Frank, I'm going to remove the pulley and machine a little material off of the spokes to get the clearance needed between the pulley and front engine mount.
Thanks for your help, Dave

[Dave1931Pickup]

Update on Crank Pulley rubbing on the Front Engine Support. I removed the pulley and chucked it up in the lathe with the crank sleeve portion facing away from the chuck. The three spokes had a slight curve on the back side making them thicker than stock. I set the compound slide at an angle and machined off the curved area, Probably taking off .075" or so. Reinstalling the pulley went well. The only tricky part was trying to get the slot on the pulley shank to line up with the woodruff key it the crank. That took a few tries since you can't see the woodruff key with the oil pan and front timing gear cover on. The two rope seals did not move at all.
Thanks to all who had info for me.

[SeaSlugs]

So it worked I take it? Glad to hear!

[V4F]

I had a clearance problem with harmonic balancer . I just made my own front mounts on the '55 chevy style . works good