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09-26-2014, 07:16 AM | #1 |
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UPDATE - VIDEO of Horn Rod/Light Switch
Fellas,
I shot some video this morning and hopefully you guys can take a look and let me know your thoughts on this problem I'm trying to tackle. http://youtu.be/9xOeMRTM-xw Well after spending two entire days on my 1930 CCPU, I'm frustrated, pissed off and no further along than when I started! Just to recap the things I've done:
Anyone wanna buy a nice 1930 Model A pickup? Thanks for any help anyone can throw my way. Putting in my new horn rod light switch today. I have the brass ferrule installed that the rod slips but the fit seems awful tight. My question is, should the light switch/horn rod turn when the steering wheel turns? I researched some posts and saw some people saying they had to sand the rod down. Wondering if that's what I have to do because when it's installed the switch turns when the steering wheel turns. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Scott Last edited by sconnors; 09-29-2014 at 10:12 AM. |
09-26-2014, 08:13 AM | #2 |
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Re: Should light switch/horn rod turn with wheel
Sconners, First of all, no the switch should not turn with the wheel. The lights will turn on and off as you drive (which is not much fun). There are some things you can try. Making the receiving dimples in the switch bottom deeper, by drilling the indent a little deeper is one. Honing the bushing at the top under the wheel can sometimes help. Also lubing the horn rod can help. I had this problem with my roadster and did all these things.After I drove it for quite awhile it finally stopped doing this. Good luck and hope this helps, Frank
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09-26-2014, 08:24 AM | #3 |
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Re: Should light switch/horn rod turn with wheel
Depends on why the rod is turning. Could be a bind between the rod and the shaft. You can probably tell by rotating the light switch rod before installing the switch-it should turn loose and free. If it doesn't, you can sometimes us steel wool to dress it up a bit. Make sure your rod is STRAIGHT.
It may also be that your horn button housing is touching the top of the steering wheel. This can sometimes happen with a repop horn rod, dirt between the housing and wheel or sometimes with a wheel that is not tightened down enough. In any case, all are pretty easy fixes. Good luck! |
09-26-2014, 08:43 AM | #4 |
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Re: Should light switch/horn rod turn with wheel
The rod is a new one I ordered from Snyder's. I ordered a new bushing but that is way too tight even after sanding the top of the rod as others have suggested. So I put the old bushing back in. I DO NOT have the spider, etc on yet, I'm simply bolting the wheel back in place and turning the steering wheel and the light switch is turning. I wanted to test everything BEFORE putting everything together and having to take it all apart again!
One thing I did notice is that when I pull the horn rod up slightly and rotate the steering wheel the bushing is turning also. Is this normal? Stumped and at a standstill and not sure where to go next. I don't want to put everything together and have to take it all apart again. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated! Feeling frustrated... |
09-26-2014, 09:25 AM | #5 |
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Light Switch: some pics and help needed.
I've attached some pictures of the hole in the column without the brass bushing, with the brass bushing and with the brass bushing half way in to show the fit/condition of my steering column.
Spoke with Don at Snyder's and he says the bushing should turn when the wheel turns and the rod should "free float" in the bushing and NOT turn when the wheel turns. He suggested taking a drill or a file to the column (which I've heard people on here say not to do because it's so thin) in case there are burrs (that's why I attached the pictures). To recap: I have a new horn rod/light switch, new bushing, and for some reason the switch is still turning when the wheel is turned. Before I file or drill anything and do damage I wanted to check with you guys and get your thoughts/opinions. I've read suggestions about not putting the bushing in, about using a fine washer, about sanding and filing the rod (which I've done) and am my wits end with this problem. Thanks in advance for any help you can give me. Scott Last edited by sconnors; 09-26-2014 at 09:31 AM. |
09-26-2014, 10:18 AM | #6 |
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Re: Should light switch/horn rod turn with wheel
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09-26-2014, 03:49 PM | #7 |
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UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Well after spending two entire days on my 1930 CCPU, I'm frustrated, pissed off and no further along than when I started! Just to recap the things I've done:
Anyone wanna buy a nice 1930 Model A pickup? Thanks for any help anyone can throw my way. |
09-26-2014, 04:08 PM | #8 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Quote:
as regards the light switch turning as the wheel turns, have you thought of spotting strategic places where the switch sits with Prussian Blue or some other means of detecting binding? |
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09-26-2014, 04:39 PM | #9 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Here's what helped me with the same problem. I removed the steering wheel nut and faced it on lathe and polished the surface that makes contact with the light rod knob. My nut was rusty and was making too much friction with the knob. The repro copper bushings are very soft and are distorted in shaped making the rod fit tighter. With my bushing in the column, I put into the bushing a 3/8" piece of round stock and tapped on the stock on the side so that it would seat the bushing against the sides. I tapped in all different directions. On the rod, I assembly with oil not a heavy sticky grease.
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09-26-2014, 04:40 PM | #10 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
I am wondering why the top of the retaining nut is irregular? try a flat washer to eliminate the bottom side of the light switch rod from direct contact with this grooving. a little silicone grease here wouldn't hurt either.
Bob |
09-26-2014, 05:04 PM | #11 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Quote:
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09-26-2014, 05:13 PM | #12 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Picked these up today after reading some threads. The nylon one is a bit thicker than the stainless one. Which would you suggest?
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09-26-2014, 05:16 PM | #13 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
what harley said. my ESP is rusty.
bob |
09-26-2014, 05:16 PM | #14 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
nylon
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09-26-2014, 05:16 PM | #15 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Quote:
steering column I don't see how it can rotate. In the video it looks like the light switch handle and horn button are sitting a little to far down in the steering wheel, you need to shim it up with a washer like I think was suggested earlier. Bob |
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09-26-2014, 05:35 PM | #16 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Did you clean the inside of the steering shaft? It's like cleaning a gun barrel. I can't tell from what I've read in your post if the rod is sticking to the shaft, but if that's the problem cleaning may be in order. Someone in the past may have lubed it and now the old lube is like glue causing the two to stick together. I've seen that situation.
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09-26-2014, 05:42 PM | #17 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
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09-26-2014, 05:51 PM | #18 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
I just went through this
Before messing with the light switch get the horn rod to drop into the collumn with bushing installed without any tightness. The repo rods are thicker as mentioned at the top. Once you get that fit correct move to the light switch |
09-26-2014, 06:08 PM | #19 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
have you tried turning the steering wheel while pulling out the light switch to various lengths, assuming that it will stay in position by itself?
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09-26-2014, 06:15 PM | #20 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Quote:
I sanded down the top of the rod right below the light switch pretty good. Did you use a washer on yours? What else did you do to get the horn rod to not turn when the wheel turns? |
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09-26-2014, 06:16 PM | #21 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Yes I have. The rod as everyone mentioned is thicker than the older ones. So the only place that it actually contacts is at the top where the bushing is once it's all the way in the column.
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09-26-2014, 06:26 PM | #22 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Quote:
once it drops in with no friction youll be good use some grease up top also |
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09-26-2014, 06:27 PM | #23 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Quote:
once it drops in with no friction and spins relatively free you'll be good use some grease up top also |
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09-26-2014, 06:36 PM | #24 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
I believe no one has mentioned what keeps the rod from moving. The light switch has a plate in it with three brass bumps. The bumps fit into brass depressions on the Bakelite (plastic) disk that is at the end of the wiring harness. I have seen reproduction parts where the bumps are not big enough and/or the depressions are not deep enough. If these two parts are not matched up there will not be enough resistance on the rod and it will turn with the steering wheel. I was able to fix one by building up the bumps with solder.
Bob Last edited by Bob Johnson; 09-26-2014 at 06:37 PM. Reason: spelling |
09-26-2014, 06:41 PM | #25 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
do you have a caliper that will allow you to measure the bushing diameter and the diameter of the rod? surely there are guys here that can tell you what kind of clearance is necessary
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09-26-2014, 06:41 PM | #26 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
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09-26-2014, 06:58 PM | #27 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
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09-26-2014, 06:59 PM | #28 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
I do not have a caliper and am not familiar with them or where to get one, but if it'll fix the problem I'll go buy one!
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09-26-2014, 07:00 PM | #29 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Quote:
Thanks. How much solder did you use? I've seen the top end of the switch and know the bumps you're talking about. |
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09-26-2014, 07:06 PM | #30 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Sconnors, Watched your video did not see spring and brass centralizer that goes between horn button and steering wheel. centralizer not bushing for rod.
Thanks Dana |
09-26-2014, 07:12 PM | #31 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Quote:
Bob |
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09-26-2014, 07:16 PM | #32 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Quote:
In my video I had left the bushing totally out. There was no spring between the horn button and the steering wheel. There is a spring inside the horn button. |
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09-26-2014, 07:20 PM | #33 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Quote:
Thanks, as far as I know there is no separate spring in the top part of the housing. There is a spring under the horn button but that is encased in the switch. The switch sets down inside the steering wheel against the brass bushing. Unless I'm missing something. |
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09-26-2014, 08:26 PM | #34 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
I went back through all your postings....did you rebuild that steering gear in any way? is the steering wheel original or repro?
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09-26-2014, 08:28 PM | #35 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Here is a picture of the spring I referred to. Laso notice the height of the brass bumps.
Bob |
09-26-2014, 08:41 PM | #36 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
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09-26-2014, 08:43 PM | #37 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
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09-27-2014, 10:35 AM | #38 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Taking today off from working on the truck. Tomorrow I will be back at it and am going to do the following:
With the spider, spring and clip out when you turn the steering wheel should the light switch turn with it? Someone posted yesterday that it will and that the spider, spring and clip prevent it from turning. My goal is to take the column out only once. The last time I slid the sector shaft through the frame to hold it in place, bolted the steering column to the bracket support in the cab and spun the wheel to test if the switch was moving but I DID NOT have the spider, spring and clip attached. Just wondering if it makes a difference. If anyone has any other suggestions that the ones I've listed PLEASE send them my way. Back at it tomorrow. As a guy we all know and respect once said: “Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” Henry Ford |
09-27-2014, 11:20 AM | #39 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Quote:
with the steering shaft. Bob |
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09-27-2014, 03:15 PM | #40 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
That is the heart of your problem. Now you also have to space the horn rod from the retaining nut under it in the steering wheel since I see the surface of the nut was agressively ground down and is not level. If you loose your cool, drink a beer, relax and give yourself a break. Don't let a little learning frustrate you to the point that this is no longer recreation. life is too short. Worse case is you have to replace the steering shaft. I have a steering column that failed as I was backing the car into the storage. the top of the shaft is weak where the capture nut threads end.
Lights are less dangerous than no steering. Bob |
09-27-2014, 03:33 PM | #41 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Quote:
Thanks. So you suggest I go with the nylon washer over the steel as a spacer under the switch? I totally thank you for your words of wisdom, although I haven't drank in 26 years I did decide to take a break for a couple days, had a cigar and a cup of coffee and reflected on the problem. It's a learning experience and I love learning especially about Model A's. |
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09-27-2014, 07:00 PM | #42 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
With the switch not clipped in place, can you easily turn the horn rod lever to the lighting positions, 7, 6, 5, and 4 O'clock?
It should turn very easily and not try to turn the steering wheel as you turn the switch. |
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09-27-2014, 07:15 PM | #43 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Quote:
With the spider, spring and clip in but the light switch NOT attached the switch turns to those positions, but when you turn the wheel the switch still turns whether the switch is connected or not. |
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09-27-2014, 09:36 PM | #44 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Coffee is good. I like a coke Classic. Anyway, I don't understand why the horn rod turns with the wheel when the light switch is properly installed. 1930 coupe above (post 45) has the washer thing explained much better than I could. Are you using a reproduction wiring harness? I think We need someone close by to take a look.
If it doesn't go together right something is wrong. Bob |
09-27-2014, 09:44 PM | #45 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Quote:
Yes I have all "new" reproduction parts from Snyder's out of the box last week. New wiring harness, light switch body, light switch and horn rod, copper bushing, spider, spring, clip, bail wire. |
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09-27-2014, 10:33 PM | #46 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
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09-27-2014, 10:54 PM | #47 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
A picture of the contact plate and a picture of the 3 brass contacts would help us see if it's the problem. I haven't seen flat contacts on the repro harness, but you never know.
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09-28-2014, 08:59 AM | #48 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Quote:
Here are the pictures you requested. Hope this helps Scott |
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09-28-2014, 09:10 AM | #49 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
A couple of questions keep mulling around in my head as I take a day or two off from this project but it's ever present in my mind. So I thought I'd throw my questions out there.
Thanks again guys for all the great help you've given me so far. Together we'll get this fixed, I'm sure of it! |
09-28-2014, 09:28 AM | #50 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Those two parts look fine to me and I don't see why they shouldn't work without modifying them.
Are you sure the contact plate is getting pressed all the way forward when the rear cap is in place? Are you sure the spider is locked to the rod by the C clip? Are you sure the C clip is properly engaging the switch? Are you sure the bail wire is holding the switch tight to the steering box? All 4 questions need to be yes! |
09-28-2014, 09:36 AM | #51 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Quote:
See my answers above. |
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09-28-2014, 10:25 AM | #52 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
I may be way off with this but are we sure this is the correct length horn rod? I believe there were 5 different lengths and they did not vary by much at all. If the dimpled contacts do not sit firmly in the detents on the brass contacts it will not work....
It is possible the wrong one has been in there for a while. I find wrong parts in cars all the time and the question always becomes, not "why won't it work now" but "why did it work at all" look at the vendors catalogues. Brattons at least (maybe others) tells you how to measure for what you need. Is there a spider spring present? This was mentioned but I don't recall seeing an answer
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09-28-2014, 11:06 AM | #53 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
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09-28-2014, 11:14 AM | #54 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
It still may not be the correct one for your steering column.
I would read what Bratton's has to say about taking the measurement, then measure just for kicks. I realize this is a longshot, but when you are having this much trouble with something, you have to go back to basics and check and recheck everything In any event once you figure it out (it will end up being something totally ridiculous) please post back so we can all learn
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09-28-2014, 11:24 AM | #55 |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
My mistake on #3. I meant to say spider, not C clip. The spider must engage the slots in the switch correctly, so the spider should be at 6 and 12 O'clock and the switch should be in the off position.
Is the cup on the bottom of the steering in the correct position, so the wires exit out the top and not out the bottom? |
09-28-2014, 12:52 PM | #56 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Quote:
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09-28-2014, 12:53 PM | #57 | |
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Re: UPDATE - Horn Rod/Light Switch Fiasco!
Quote:
Yes the spider is at 12 and 6 and the wires exit out of the top of the switch. |
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09-29-2014, 10:14 AM | #58 |
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Re: UPDATE - VIDEO of Horn Rod/Light Switch
Fellas,
I shot some video this morning and hopefully you guys can take a look and let me know your thoughts on this problem I'm trying to tackle. http://youtu.be/9xOeMRTM-xw |
09-29-2014, 10:41 AM | #59 |
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Re: UPDATE - VIDEO of Horn Rod/Light Switch
You have original parts on the left in your video. Use them if you can. Regarding your light rod turning, mine did the same thing with the brass ferrule in place. I know it's supposed to be there, but I removed mine and it then worked OK. Your light rod has to be perfectly straight, though, or it will turn regardless. Good video, by the way.
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09-29-2014, 10:42 AM | #60 |
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Re: UPDATE - VIDEO of Horn Rod/Light Switch
from what i see the fit on your horn rod is good... it will rotate until you install the light switch which will add resistance.
why dont you use the original light switch and cover??? i dont believe the repo switch and original cover interchange correctly..i could be wrong on that but i remember my orig and repo did not mate together right.. |
09-29-2014, 10:59 AM | #61 |
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Re: UPDATE - VIDEO of Horn Rod/Light Switch
Put the whole thing together and then do your video. Without the switch completely assembled at the bottom of the steering column the horn rod WILL move with the steering wheel. IMHO you are trying to fix a problem that does not exist. Your horn rod / steering wheel / column are fine. If there is a problem it is in the switch at the bottom of the column. Again put the whole thing together and video what happens.
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09-29-2014, 11:03 AM | #62 |
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Re: UPDATE - VIDEO of Horn Rod/Light Switch
You DO NOT have a problem. The bushing and horn rod are resting inside a tube that rotates, and until you have something stopping the rod from moving, it will rotate with the steering. The light switch detents are what stops the horn rod from rotating while turning the steering wheel.
I use original parts when possible, but have worked with repro light switches, and they also work. |
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09-29-2014, 11:04 AM | #63 |
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Re: UPDATE - VIDEO of Horn Rod/Light Switch
I think you're right, Mitch. I had the same experience.
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09-29-2014, 11:04 AM | #64 |
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Re: UPDATE - VIDEO of Horn Rod/Light Switch
how far down on the light rod have you sanded, from your video it seems as if a bind is occurring further on down the rod and not at the top at the wheel. and sure, I would take the bushing out.
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09-29-2014, 11:20 AM | #65 | |
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Re: UPDATE - VIDEO of Horn Rod/Light Switch
Quote:
I've only sanded the top of the rod about two inches and the very bottom to get the spider on. |
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09-29-2014, 12:06 PM | #66 |
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Re: UPDATE - VIDEO of Horn Rod/Light Switch
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09-29-2014, 12:17 PM | #67 |
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Re: UPDATE - VIDEO of Horn Rod/Light Switch
Here is another video after I pulled the steering column out of the truck.
http://youtu.be/BoX7DjFV7Ag |
09-29-2014, 01:57 PM | #68 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Stephentown
Posts: 446
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Re: UPDATE - VIDEO of Horn Rod/Light Switch
Quote:
The other day after everything was installed and the light switch was in place I had the same problem, that's why I took it all apart again. Some have said to dremel the switch contacts and build up the top contacts with solder etc. But there is a problem somewhere because with everything hooked up and the light switch in it still rotates. Working on it again on Wednesday so I will put it all back together and shoot another video. Perhaps as a last resort I can take the wiring harness back out of the truck and reinstall it using the original light switch body? |
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09-29-2014, 02:14 PM | #69 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: So Cal
Posts: 8,713
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Re: UPDATE - VIDEO of Horn Rod/Light Switch
If you have your old harness or just the contact plate (remember never throw
anything away) just install it in the old switch and see if it works. Bob |
09-29-2014, 03:19 PM | #70 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Stephentown
Posts: 446
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Re: UPDATE - VIDEO of Horn Rod/Light Switch
Quote:
I have the old harness (and never throw stuff out) but it's pretty much shot. But I do have the old contact plate and switch body. |
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09-29-2014, 04:50 PM | #71 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Stephentown
Posts: 446
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Re: UPDATE - VIDEO of Horn Rod/Light Switch
Quote:
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09-29-2014, 10:10 PM | #72 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: brentwood, ca
Posts: 4,215
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Re: UPDATE - VIDEO of Horn Rod/Light Switch
the new harness contact plate will work in the old light switch housing and old cover. Do not grind, file, or modify the new plate, but do get it properly positioned so you can feel the detents when the switch is put together.
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09-29-2014, 10:33 PM | #73 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Stephentown
Posts: 446
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Re: UPDATE - VIDEO of Horn Rod/Light Switch
Quote:
Thanks for the information. I am have to check and see if the top of my old light switch housing will fit with the lower portion of the new one since it's already in the truck and I would have to take the harness back out to use the old bottom light switch body. Will take your advice about not modifying the new plate. |
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