Parts Rant!

[sconnors]

Being relatively new to owning a Model A (I purchased mine in 2012) I have found a great deal of knowledge and support from guys here on the Ford Barn and quite frankly wouldn’t be where I am in the hobby today without you guys.

Having said that, I have been quite dismayed by the parts that I order from a variety of suppliers. I order most of my stuff from Snyder’s but have ordered from Mac’s, Bratton’s and Tam’s. It seems I rarely get a part out of the box that fits correctly without some type of tweaking.

I received a new horn rod and light switch spider brand new in the mail from Snyder’s and tried to put the spider on only to find out it doesn’t fit. I had to sand down the rod and file the inside of the spider. If I hadn’t done research on the Ford Barn and learned by your experiences, I would’ve had the whole thing in the truck before realizing it didn’t fit and have to take the steering column out all over again!

I also purchased a brand new wiring harness (which wasn’t too bad) and light switch body which was junk! The thing barely stays together and slips down the column, the bail comes about 1/8 of an inch below the body so it is holding nothing up. It was so bad I ended up ordering another on from another vendor who informed me that there are basically two suppliers of them one out of New York and one out of California and they both get them from overseas. I tried calling Bert’s and he doesn’t have any but wants $100 for one when he gets some in.

This is a major frustration. I know these companies pay big money to license the Ford name so they can have it on their packaging and everything I get comes from Taiwan, or China or somewhere overseas. It’s amazing to me that working on an iconic American car I’m using cheap overseas parts that always need to be bent, filed, sanded, ground, cut, reshaped! It’s frustrating as a hobbyist and angers me as an American.

I love my Model A and I love working on her and have learned much from working on her. But the most important lesson I have learned is to take for granted that ANYTHING I buy will not fit and should always be bench tested first! It seems there should be some sort of Quality Control amongst these parts houses, obviously Ford doesn’t care and just sells their name to license. But these parts houses sell these parts to people without even testing to see if things fit? A great example is the spider and horn rod, BOTH from the same vendor and they both go out the door and don’t fit together.

I know they can’t possibly try every part for every vehicle but it seems that the hobbyist is getting the short end of the stick having to work on brand new parts right out of the box to get them to fit. I can’t imaging buying a part for my Jeep Wrangler and having to work on it before I put it in the vehicle because it doesn’t fit.

I’ve read time and again on this forum repop = garbage and I truly get it now. Everything’s cheaply made with the fit and the quality very poor. Well that’s my rant fellas, thanks for listening and more importantly thanks for being here to help a fellow Model A enthusiast through some tough times! You are a great community of owners, mechanics and enthusiasts and the wealth of knowledge on her never ceases to amaze me.

[rex1927]

I feel the same way.

[Fred]

Flea markets have all you have talked about, & E-Bay has the switches on all the time, just not many for the Early 28s.. You will find that any time re-pop stuff is "JUNK" or not made, The price of Original stuff goes way up..

[29ModelA]

My switch body from Snyder's worked fine... :shrug: I didn't look exactly like the original though from what I recall.

[mcorrell]

I agree completely with the OP but we only have ourselves to blame, collectively as hobbiests. Most people, like my dad, will purchase the least expensive option when given the choice, even when they know it is a part made in China. The repop ammeter my dad installed in my Model A about 10 years ago (500 miles or less) recently fried, causing the car not to start. Rather than buying a Chinese repop (only option for new ammeter) I bypassed the fried ammeter and waited 3 months and found an older, made in USA, repop on ebay for $20, which is $12 more than the new Chinese ones. I know I am in the minority and will purchase the best part available, but not necessarily the most expensive, for what I intend to use the car for.

[mcorrell]

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Also, I do like buying from Snyders as they will often tell you about the quality of the repops they sell.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by sconnors

I have been quite dismayed by the parts that I order from a variety of suppliers. It seems I rarely get a part out of the box that fits correctly without some type of tweaking. This is a major frustration.

It’s amazing to me that working on an iconic American car I’m using cheap overseas parts that always need to be bent, filed, sanded, ground, cut, reshaped! It’s frustrating as a hobbyist and angers me as an American.

I realize your frustration almost every day of my life, ...and please realize when I say 'Welcome to my World' that it is not a calloused remark. Imagine having to explain this issue with a customer!! The issue is SO much deeper than you touched on though. I have preached this over & over, but please allow me to say it again. With as bad as things seem, we have it so much better than what restorers of other marques have it. Therefore, ...Be Thankful for what you do have. I am working on a 1909 Maxwell, ....and there is no such thing as reproduction parts for it. We are finding ourselves even making new gaskets!! It is projects like this that make a restorer appreciate at least some type of part is available.

On the other hand, use these set-backs to expand your mechanical skills. Often times, because of the fast pace we live in we are guilty of opening a package and installing the item without taking a moment to understand just how it works. Instead of replacing a part, look for ways & methods to actually restore the faulty item. Even if you still replace it with a reproduction item, understanding how something functions, and thinking about the methods by which you would repair it broadens your capabilities in life as a whole. It teaches you reasoning skills, brain-to-hand coordination, memorization skills, and patience which can be used in many other tasks we encounter in life. Start with the small or simple projects and work your way up to the large ones. Best wishes in the future!!

.

[Joe K]

I blame at least in part FOMOCO for not making the Model A drawings "open source." Ford had their day with them. They also used them in self serving measure to develop better automobiles to be the Model A successor. And now for them it would be a simple matter to say - "here you go hobby - something created in the interest of free enterprise - let enterprise continue to be free and don't bother us with your petty technical questions - it's all here now for you now."

(and a "don't bother us with your petty lawsuits - you're driving a design which is OBSOLETE - and Ford can't control final use OR performance.")

And the free market would use these open source prints to make parts to be the best they can be. All on the basis of capturing market demand.

Yes, there would be the loss leaders - just as there is now. Headlight clips that can't be compressed enough to fit into the slots, side aprons with the hump too shallow or in the wrong spot, or light bulbs with the filaments inverted over what was design. But the market combined with the Internet would quickly figure these things out. And they would come and go - mostly go I wager.

Reverse engineering based on extant parts can only do so much. And therein lies a good portion of our problem.

I'm trying to think of a similar product which has had a similar end of life game?

(Wikipedia here) Thomas Jefferson once said in a letter to Isaac McPherson on August 13, 1813:

"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me."[79]

Ford has lit the lamp and made their money having done so. Light is now VERY common at least in part due to Ford. In fact, so common that Ford has gone on to build better and brighter and more attractive and more efficient lamps themselves. Having done so why not let everyone take something of their original flame?

One thot.

Joe K

[1932BB]

I have been frustrated as much as the rest of you with having to modify even simple things to fit. I wonder if it is lack of quality control or if it is the result of trying to copy old parts on metric based machine tools.

[Rowdy]

Anyone that has done a complete restoration knows the short comings of some of the repop parts on the market. It is however better than it used to be. I have found Berts carry the best available parts on the market in most cases. Yes their prices are alittle higher than the suppliers that sell on lower prices alone and their quality shows why. I could show several examples, but my computer is down right now, so I do not have access to those pic's right now. Rod

[sconnors]

Another case in point, ordered new contact for the horn and tried em before I soldered everything up and yep they don't fit! Had to rebend before doing final solder!

[armchair67]

I'm new to the model A also and agree with the OP. I drive my Tudor daily so reliability is very important. I installed a new repop ignition switch a few weeks ago and have to find a better replacement. There is enough slop in it that it cuts out-usually at the most interesting of times such as when pulling out into traffic. I have the jiggle the key to get it to come back to life. Sad when one contemplates buying something from Pep Boys to get better quality! I've dealt with similar issues on the vw scene-fenders that didn't fit , thin floor pan replacements, garbage fuel pumps. Companies have popped up in recent years offering much better quality parts for those, hopefully the Model A suppliers will follow suit.

[H. L. Chauvin]

No doubt it can get frustrating at times; however, being raised all of my life with self employment, if we put the shoe on the other foot, it helps to think about our dedicated parts vendors trying their very best & working diligently every day to try to provide an abundance of the best replacement parts available for Model A's -- this is definitely no easy task.

For example, suppose we would acquire a beat up & worn out 1930 Pontiac -- anybody ever see a parts catalog that can match our vendor's Model A parts catalogs.

Does anybody think that these catalogs got this large by our dedicated Model A vendors sitting down & receiving food stamps & welfare and/or being some goof ball Government employee waiting for some overseas manufacturer who can't speak English to call them to offer a new Model A part.

In my opinion, after talking to these parts vendor owners, I have learned how they are constantly struggling to improve what we buy.

I, like many others wore out a few Dremel tools making parts fit; but, I realize if I had a 1930 Pontiac I would need a full service machine shop to try to make parts.

Appears life is all about attitude -- attitude check anyone? LOL

[Y-Blockhead]

On the other hand some vendors, Dennis Carpenter where I used to buy parts for my '55 Ford Ranchwagon, "Parts made with original dies", now farms things out overseas to save a BUCK!! And the fit and finish shows it.

[sconnors]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

No doubt it can get frustrating at times; however, being raised all of my life with self employment, if we put the shoe on the other foot, it helps to think about our dedicated parts vendors trying their very best & working diligently every day to try to provide an abundance of the best replacement parts available for Model A's -- this is definitely no easy task.

For example, suppose we would acquire a beat up & worn out 1930 Pontiac -- anybody ever see a parts catalog that can match our vendor's Model A parts catalogs.

Does anybody think that these catalogs got this large by our dedicated Model A vendors sitting down & receiving food stamps & welfare and/or being some goof ball Government employee waiting for some overseas manufacturer who can't speak English to call them to offer a new Model A part.

In my opinion, after talking to these parts vendor owners, I have learned how they are constantly struggling to improve what we buy.

I, like many others wore out a few Dremel tools making parts fit; but, I realize if I had a 1930 Pontiac I would need a full service machine shop to try to make parts.

Appears life is all about attitude -- attitude check anyone? LOL

I disagree. I restored a 1950 Buick and there are only two places to buy parts in the country. I NEVER had a part not fit or had the trouble with parts I've had with Model A parts and vendors.

I believe part of it lays on the suppliers for not holding their vendors to a higher standard and part of it lays with the vendors producing junk overseas. And you're right, life is all about attitude and the attitude of the Model A vendors is feed em crap and they'll like it cause it's the only crap there is!!!

[Kevin in NJ]

I talked with one of the Bratton's guys that works on sourcing parts. That is he goes to shops and tries to get parts made to Ford specs. The shops just are not doing the jobs (both in the USA and abroad) and they have troubles getting them to do the job right for some parts. Other parts it is just cost prohibitive to make a perfect part so we just get to settle for what they are willing to make.

The system needs accurate feedback too. All too often the companies make a part and never get the feedback on what is wrong. We have the responsibility to accurately describe why a part does not fit and we have to be ready to step back and figure out if we are doing something wrong too. I am sure they guys ranting on the phone a part does not fit and the problem is because the guy did something wrong. So it makes it tough for the supplier to know where the problems lay.

If we keep it honest and open we can continue to improve the hobby's supply of parts. We already have many wear parts with very serviceable new parts, I think that will keep expanding.

[H. L. Chauvin]

In addressing reply no. 16, & agreeing with access to the more modern 1950's vehicle parts, I am specifically addressing our out of date vintage "1930's" vehicle parts ............ not 1950's.

Anyway, again, for a one-on-one comparison, did anyone try lately restoring a "beat up & well worn" 1930 Buick, a 1930 Pontiac or a beat up & well worn any 1930's vehicle which needs "many" replacement parts that can pass similar stringent Model A Judging Standards ?

[sconnors]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

In addressing reply no. 16, & agreeing with access to the more modern 1950's vehicle parts, I am specifically addressing our out of date vintage "1930's" vehicle parts ............ not 1950's.

Anyway, again, for a one-on-one comparison, did anyone try lately restoring a "beat up & well worn" 1930 Buick, a 1930 Pontiac or a beat up & well worn any 1930's vehicle which needs "many" replacement parts that can pass similar stringent Model A Judging Standards ?

I agree to a certain extent, BUT they made 145,000 1950 Buicks whereas they made 4 million Model A's.

[Mike V. Florida]

All this is nothing new, sad, and frustrating yes but nothing new.

[Rowdy]

One example is the tudor seat springs. There are 2 different versions on the market. One made by Snyders has lateral supports and is very close to the original thickness, sold by Snyders, Berts, Brattons and LB. The other version on the market is 1/4" too thick, no lateral support and way to stiff to be comfortable, sold by the vendors that only carry the lowest priced items made. I found this out the hard way. Not sure what I am going to do with the cheaper version springs I have on the shelf, but have no plans to use them. Rod

[DougVieyra]

sConners: "I have been quite dismayed by the parts that I order from a variety of suppliers. It seems I rarely get a part out of the box that fits correctly without some type of tweaking. This is a major frustration. I know these companies pay big money to license the Ford name so they can have it on their packaging and everything I get comes from Taiwan, or China or somewhere overseas. It’s amazing to me that working on an iconic American car I’m using cheap overseas parts that always need to be bent, filed, sanded, ground, cut, reshaped! It’s frustrating as a hobbyist and angers me as an American. " - Sconners, Post #1
_____________________

That is why, for some, it is much better to spend some time "cleaning up" an original Ford-Made part, and why BERT'S Model A Parts Center in Denver, has earned a reputation for being a source of such original parts. His inventory of original Ford-Made parts is quite extensive.

Also, many of the other suppliers also occaisionally carry (much more limited) some original parts - it does not hurt to ASK them.

- Doug Vieyra

[DougVieyra]

I only buy American !

The gasoline I put in my gas tank, the oil I put in my crank case, and the grease in my lub gun - I insist, come only from either Texas, or California. No foreign 'cheap junk', 'ill-fitting' oil from Nigeria, Venezala, or Middle East.

- Doug Vieyra, Jingoistic Docent, of the now closed Eureka FORD PLANT

[brito36]

I have been buying reproduction parts for years, and I find that almost all are junk. As a business owner and I were to make a reproduction part, I would strive to make it identical to the original in both looks and function. I can't understand why vendors have these parts made in poor quality, when they could have an exact duplicate for a few bucks more. More people would buy them.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by DougVieyra

I only buy American !

The gasoline I put in my gas tank, the oil I put in my crank case, and the grease in my lub gun - I insist, come only from either Texas, or California. No foreign 'cheap junk', 'ill-fitting' oil from Nigeria, Venezala, or Middle East.

- Doug Vieyra, Jingoistic Docent, of the now closed Eureka FORD PLANT

You may be fortunate - although I don't think oil is necessarily "color coded" to prevent intermixing before refining - or blending of the finished product streams.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...ing-saudi.html

The article is quite extensive, and discusses the underlying geo-political arena which is an area of only limited discussion on a technical board.

Not mentioned is that the US EPA will be completing rulemaking for Frack Oil in 2015 - and most oil producers are expecting the worst in new regulations.

Just in time for the 2016 elections I might add.

Meanwhile - buy local - if you can.

Joe K

[Mitch//pa]

we are lucky to have such a wide assortment of things available to us. enough that a car can be built out of a book such as john lavoys pick up truck. a lot of the issue has to do with experience on knowing what the different suppliers carry on certain items. many , many items are not created equal and ford barn is a great way to find that info out. i buy alot from different suppliers brattons, snyders, tams,etc for that reason.. the more experienced one becomes on who to call for a particular item will help with your jobs going smoother.
for instance::
brattons carrys the best inner tubes out there right now, so if you buy from an alternative source than from them your likely to have inflation loss issues.

pedal and shifter plates brattons carrys them unfiinished and snyders has them powder coated

the light switches fit terrible which you were aware of from your previous posts

stop light switches A&l makes the best

i just used a brattons light harness with connectors and repo headlights. it all fit together perfect... not sure how the other jobbers parts are???

just a few examples on things so as mentioned experience goes a long way..

[H. L. Chauvin]

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There are also a few other things to consider:

1. In the 1950's, I remember only the poorest of the poor owning Model A's; restoration was at all not very popular; Model A's were a step above walking or riding a horse.

2. In the 1950's one could find tons of old armoires, wood stoves, & marble top dressers in the garbage; nobody wanted vintage stuff.

3. In the 1950's thousands of old buildings were demolished; nobody wanted old Victorian houses etc.

4. Then a little later, all of a sudden, "old" was "good" -- except for "old" people like us. LOL

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by brito36

I have been buying reproduction parts for years, and I find that almost all are junk. As a business owner and I were to make a reproduction part, I would strive to make it identical to the original in both looks and function. I can't understand why vendors have these parts made in poor quality, when they could have an exact duplicate for a few bucks more. More people would buy them.

Unfortunately, the ones that DO have items made have not found this to be true.

Now contrary to what people may believe, the majority of Model-A hobbyists just will not spend the extra money for a quality manufactured item. Bill Stipe's shocks are a great example of top-notch US quality, ....however he is on his last run because folks complain about the cost. Tom Rootlieb stopped production on the good 1931 running boards because the sales were poor on them. Folks would opt to purchase the ones made in Ohio that were made out of a thinner metal and were not correctly made. Chris Robinson made a really nice crankshaft but halted production because people would not pay the price he needed to make a profit. There are so many other quality pieces for the Model-A such as Sport/Special Coupe top mouldings, terne-finished running board trim, etc. that have dropped off the market simply because the demand for a quality item was not there, ...especially if there was a cheaper alternative available.

[CAPE A]

Just pickedup running boards for my truck from a guy on the FB , said they were new
asked what shape any rust ? no.
Got them last nt. one has a 1/2 " bend in the outside edge the other has a slight bend each one had ben installed before. and some rust where they were mounted.
To me that is not new. By the time one fixes them one will have lots more $ in them than if i bought new.
Very disapointed in this Barn Member
Problems with parts is fustrating being lied to is another.

[JOES31]

Brent,
You are absolutely correct. The problem with poor quality parts is exactly as you stated. Model A owners will not pay for them and opt for the cheaper poor quality part. Not just Model A parts and owners but it is prevalent in our every day life as consumers. I can't tell you how many quality products have gone away because of cheaper poorley made copied product that consumers prefer to purchase. The best example is tools. Sk Wayne, Proto, Crescent, Evans are all gone. Now they are just names stamped on poorly made imported tools. All because the American consumer will not pay for the quality product.

What most don't understand is, paying more for a quality part is always going to be less expensive in the long run. Easier installation and longer life.

I too have had to waste hours fitting a repo part on my A because that is all that is available.

The sour taste of a cheaply made product lasts far longer than the added expense of a quality properly built product.

[H. L. Chauvin]

For business minded individuals with business common sense, please don't forget about our American system of "supply & demand."

Why do all of the local good American stores close when a new American Wal-Mart comes in town & offers everything very cheap from China? Choices, choices of where to spend money.

Parts vendors pay just as much inventory tax, land use & building tax, & utility costs for shelf items that move quickly & make money, as for the more expensive items that just sit on the shelf collect dust.

No parts vendor can stay in business with a museum of non selling parts. Like Mr. Brent mentioned above, who is wiling to pay for good shocks?

In my humble opinion, if it were extremely lucrative to sell "perfect" Model A parts, almost every State would have such a booming Model A parts business ..... but again, American "supply & demand" ...... don't even mention our American Congress ..... choices, choices ......... perfect example of the "majority" of everyday American "demand" & the final results.

Agree 100% with all of the above that we can get better if & when we begin to "demand" better.

[ericr]

Originally Posted by JOES31

Brent,
You are absolutely correct. The problem with poor quality parts is exactly as you stated. Model A owners will not pay for them and opt for the cheaper poor quality part. Not just Model A parts and owners but it is prevalent in our every day life as consumers. I can't tell you how many quality products have gone away because of cheaper poorley made copied product that consumers prefer to purchase. The best example is tools. Sk Wayne, Proto, Crescent, Evans are all gone. Now they are just names stamped on poorly made imported tools. All because the American consumer will not pay for the quality product.

What most don't understand is, paying more for a quality part is always going to be less expensive in the long run. Easier installation and longer life.

I too have had to waste hours fitting a repo part on my A because that is all that is available.

The sour taste of a cheaply made product lasts far longer than the added expense of a quality properly built product.

You guys are correct of course but it is part of a larger picture. Many purchasers' incomes have remained essentially flat for years and they do not have the disposable income they might have once add. Part of that is due to the loss of manufacturing jobs....not much opportunity for unskilled and semi-skilled labor. The whole economic picture has gotten upended and there is little agreement on how it happened or what should be done.

[sconnors]

I agree with everything everyone has said above. Perhaps the moderators of the forum should relay the above issues, concerns, complaints, to the larger vendors and see if a) they'd be willing to have a rep on the Ford Barn, and b) if they would agree to work with owners towards getting better quality parts.

I'm all for American commerce, but I'd rather buy good quality parts from ONE source than TRYING to find that ONE vendor that sells that ONE good part I need. We end up hemorrhaging money going to three or four vendors to fined ONE part.

[H. L. Chauvin]

FWIW:

For those of us who appreciate good quality parts, I called Mr. Stipe earlier this week who reported that he is still accepting down payments for his new Model A shocks.

If we send in a down payment check this month we should receive shocks by end of January or beginning of February. Months appear to pass by like weeks lately.

After calling Bratton's, the guy who made new shocks for Bratton's went out of business -- not enough demand to continue production.

Sincerely hope this helps anybody thinking about new, good Model A shocks.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by ericr

You guys are correct of course but it is part of a larger picture. Many purchasers' incomes have remained essentially flat for years and they do not have the disposable income they might have once add. Part of that is due to the loss of manufacturing jobs....not much opportunity for unskilled and semi-skilled labor. The whole economic picture has gotten upended and there is little agreement on how it happened or what should be done.

Please allow me to remind us all about a fallacy that often traps many restorers. To start with, restoration work is much more than having a wallet full of money. As I stated above, learning to 'restore' instead of installing repro parts builds skills, ...AND most of the time it takes less money to restore a part back to a serviceable condition. It also does not take more than some basic tools and a will.

[Tinbasher]

Yes Aftermarket again stands for "Almost Fits" We have a member in our club that sells parts and most people don't give him the feed back on the parts. At least if he knows he will try to source better parts. My theory is. OEM First, Repair original 2nd. Find another original parts and repair.3rd. Last Aftermarket as a last resort. I've spent too many hours trying to make A/M parts fit only to end up with something passable.

The Old Tinbasher

[armchair67]

"Buy the best and cry only once"-Gene Berg

That is a statement that we hold true at my company and we are slammed.

I wish those that made aftermarket auto parts would do the same. I get maybe having to finesse body parts to fit one hundred percent. I don't get making a part that is just straight up garbage, or something that would put reliability or safety at risk. I am new to Model A's as I mentioned, but was surprised to see the new ignition switch failing, and how poor the fit was on the new spark plug "leads" I picked up were. Not tight on the plug end at all, I had to pinch them in place.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by armchair67

"Buy the best and cry only once"-Gene Berg

That is a statement that we hold true at my company and we are slammed.

I wish those that made aftermarket auto parts would do the same. I get maybe having to finesse body parts to fit one hundred percent. I don't get making a part that is just straight up garbage, or something that would put reliability or safety at risk. I am new to Model A's as I mentioned, but was surprised to see the new ignition switch failing, and how poor the fit was on the new spark plug "leads" I picked up were. Not tight on the plug end at all, I had to pinch them in place.

With all due respect, why did you purchase the cheap new ignition switch instead of purchasing the restored original one that was twice the cost and twice the quality?? Maybe if you had purchased the best one, you wouldn't be crying.....

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by armchair67

"Buy the best and cry only once"-Gene Berg

That is a statement that we hold true at my company and we are slammed.

I wish those that made aftermarket auto parts would do the same. I get maybe having to finesse body parts to fit one hundred percent. I don't get making a part that is just straight up garbage, or something that would put reliability or safety at risk. I am new to Model A's as I mentioned, but was surprised to see the new ignition switch failing, and how poor the fit was on the new spark plug "leads" I picked up were. Not tight on the plug end at all, I had to pinch them in place.

The plug end should be a hole which is tightened by the brass spark plug nut. The distributor end is an open fork that is held against the distributor terminals be pressure. If properly bent with a slight curve, the plug straps work very well. Also be sure to buy the quality bronze straps with good spring pressure, and not the soft yellow brass straps.

[Tinker]

It's said that 38 fenders were drilled for fit on site. I can tell you trying to put a original fender from a same original year truck that it doest fit.

Everything needs to be worked it seems....

[armchair67]

@Brent-LOL ! True-gimme a break I'm a newbie! The ignition switch I bought was the more expensive option, in fact was advertised as "Great Quality". Funny about this particular thread-one of the things I am doing is making a few safety upgrades since I am using this as a daily, and my kids are in it. Well that nice new "Ford" licensed LED taillight lamp assembly that I bought, brand new out of the package, seems to have been made by Lucas, the Price of Darkness, cause it doesn't work! So I put the 85 year old one back together, and will look into that restored switch you mentioned. Looks like we need to be on the lookout for items marked "NOS".

[ericr]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Unfortunately, the ones that DO have items made have not found this to be true.

Now contrary to what people may believe, the majority of Model-A hobbyists just will not spend the extra money for a quality manufactured item. Bill Stipe's shocks are a great example of top-notch US quality, ....however he is on his last run because folks complain about the cost. Tom Rootlieb stopped production on the good 1931 running boards because the sales were poor on them. Folks would opt to purchase the ones made in Ohio that were made out of a thinner metal and were not correctly made. Chris Robinson made a really nice crankshaft but halted production because people would not pay the price he needed to make a profit. There are so many other quality pieces for the Model-A such as Sport/Special Coupe top mouldings, terne-finished running board trim, etc. that have dropped off the market simply because the demand for a quality item was not there, ...especially if there was a cheaper alternative available.

Based on what you are saying, a very valuable aspect of the Barn could be where members report on new quality repro parts they have recently purchased, so they rest of us could acquire them before the parts go out of production.

[BlueSunoco]

ericr, sometime back someone suggested a permanent thread post at the top of the page denoting 'good' quality parts and where they were bought from. Good idea.

We dabble in early generation Mustangs too, and I have to admit that 1.) those parts in repop are above and beyond in quality from Model A parts, never had any issues parts are made more to tolerance and 2.) Model A parts in 2014 are WAY better than the parts we were buying in 1971 so there has been improvement.

Also, can't blame Ford themselves they as a company can't fret over the quality of reproduction parts for something they built 85 years ago, they are busy enough keeping customers happy in 2014-2015 with all of the engineering going into modern cars,,,,, what would be the dollar margin of chasing quality control on a Model A? Exorbitant. Unprofitable. And the dollar volume would be what, maybe .015% of the total corporate cost outlay or much less?? Also, you can't argue Brand Loyalty or the like it practically does not exist today like say back in the 50's and 60's. We as Americans are ALL guilty of buying on the cheap no matter where it comes from. Wait until the Chinese break into the American market soon, with cheap priced cars and see what happens. Just around the corner.

[todd3131]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I realize your frustration almost every day of my life, ...and please realize when I say 'Welcome to my World' that it is not a calloused remark. Imagine having to explain this issue with a customer!! The issue is SO much deeper than you touched on though. I have preached this over & over, but please allow me to say it again. With as bad as things seem, we have it so much better than what restorers of other marques have it. Therefore, ...Be Thankful for what you do have. I am working on a 1909 Maxwell, ....and there is no such thing as reproduction parts for it. We are finding ourselves even making new gaskets!! It is projects like this that make a restorer appreciate at least some type of part is available.

On the other hand, use these set-backs to expand your mechanical skills. Often times, because of the fast pace we live in we are guilty of opening a package and installing the item without taking a moment to understand just how it works. Instead of replacing a part, look for ways & methods to actually restore the faulty item. Even if you still replace it with a reproduction item, understanding how something functions, and thinking about the methods by which you would repair it broadens your capabilities in life as a whole. It teaches you reasoning skills, brain-to-hand coordination, memorization skills, and patience which can be used in many other tasks we encounter in life. Start with the small or simple projects and work your way up to the large ones. Best wishes in the future!!

.

I thought you only restored model A's do you post photos of the other cars you work on somewhere? I share your sentiments most of the cars I work on are non fords and we have to make damn near everything, frustrating but gratifying at the same time. We are looking at a 1914 Mitchell at the moment and I don't think I will be able to get parts at the local dealer
Todd

[Doug in NJ]

Originally Posted by Tinbasher

Yes Aftermarket again stands for "Almost Fits"
The Old Tinbasher

It's not just parts for antique cars! In my experience, aftermarket parts for ANY model car, even almost-new ones, are almost always inferior in some respect to the OEM parts.

For my family's late-model drivers, I try to buy genuine OEM parts whenever possible.
Thank God for the Toyota and Subaru dealers who do discounted online sales!
Sometimes I get aftermarket, but I often regret it.

Doug

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by sconnors

Being relatively new to owning a Model A (I purchased mine in 2012) I have found a great deal of knowledge and support from guys here on the Ford Barn and quite frankly wouldn’t be where I am in the hobby today without you guys.

Having said that, I have been quite dismayed by the parts that I order from a variety of suppliers. I order most of my stuff from Snyder’s but have ordered from Mac’s, Bratton’s and Tam’s. It seems I rarely get a part out of the box that fits correctly without some type of tweaking.

I received a new horn rod and light switch spider brand new in the mail from Snyder’s and tried to put the spider on only to find out it doesn’t fit. I had to sand down the rod and file the inside of the spider. If I hadn’t done research on the Ford Barn and learned by your experiences, I would’ve had the whole thing in the truck before realizing it didn’t fit and have to take the steering column out all over again!

I also purchased a brand new wiring harness (which wasn’t too bad) and light switch body which was junk! The thing barely stays together and slips down the column, the bail comes about 1/8 of an inch below the body so it is holding nothing up. It was so bad I ended up ordering another on from another vendor who informed me that there are basically two suppliers of them one out of New York and one out of California and they both get them from overseas. I tried calling Bert’s and he doesn’t have any but wants $100 for one when he gets some in.

This is a major frustration. I know these companies pay big money to license the Ford name so they can have it on their packaging and everything I get comes from Taiwan, or China or somewhere overseas. It’s amazing to me that working on an iconic American car I’m using cheap overseas parts that always need to be bent, filed, sanded, ground, cut, reshaped! It’s frustrating as a hobbyist and angers me as an American.

I love my Model A and I love working on her and have learned much from working on her. But the most important lesson I have learned is to take for granted that ANYTHING I buy will not fit and should always be bench tested first! It seems there should be some sort of Quality Control amongst these parts houses, obviously Ford doesn’t care and just sells their name to license. But these parts houses sell these parts to people without even testing to see if things fit? A great example is the spider and horn rod, BOTH from the same vendor and they both go out the door and don’t fit together.

I know they can’t possibly try every part for every vehicle but it seems that the hobbyist is getting the short end of the stick having to work on brand new parts right out of the box to get them to fit. I can’t imaging buying a part for my Jeep Wrangler and having to work on it before I put it in the vehicle because it doesn’t fit.

I’ve read time and again on this forum repop = garbage and I truly get it now. Everything’s cheaply made with the fit and the quality very poor. Well that’s my rant fellas, thanks for listening and more importantly thanks for being here to help a fellow Model A enthusiast through some tough times! You are a great community of owners, mechanics and enthusiasts and the wealth of knowledge on her never ceases to amaze me.

I bought a magnetic oil pan plug for my model B ford oil pan.
It does not fit the thread in my oil pan? Maybe it is just tight?
Either way you would think that you could just screw it in!
How basic can you get!

[Mike V. Florida]

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Originally Posted by armchair67

@Brent-LOL ! True-gimme a break I'm a newbie! The ignition switch I bought was the more expensive option, in fact was advertised as "Great Quality". Funny about this particular thread-one of the things I am doing is making a few safety upgrades since I am using this as a daily, and my kids are in it. Well that nice new "Ford" licensed LED taillight lamp assembly that I bought, brand new out of the package, seems to have been made by Lucas, the Price of Darkness, cause it doesn't work! So I put the 85 year old one back together, and will look into that restored switch you mentioned. Looks like we need to be on the lookout for items marked "NOS".

That only means that Ford received a royalty for use of it's name and/or part number. It has NOTHING to do with construction/quality of the part.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Doug in NJ

It's not just parts for antique cars! In my experience, aftermarket parts for ANY model car, even almost-new ones, are almost always inferior in some respect to the OEM parts.


Doug

So very true.

[JOES31]

I agree most after market parts are inferior to OEM parts. I recently replaced a fuel accumulator on my restored 87 560 SL with an after market unit. The OEM was $420.00 The aftermarket part $155.00. I didn't want to wait the ten days for the OEM. Big mistake. The AF part started the car but not like the OEM. Got the OEM and the car is now very happy.

At least I had the choice.

[sconnors]

Talked to Don at Snyder's yesterday at length about this. He empathizes but also expresses that it's not cost effective to test the fit of every part he gets. I did suggest that for parts such as the horn rod and spider where there is a known issue and they need to be sanded that he could put a slip of paper in the box or a note in the catalog stating that before installing the part may need to be modified by sanding.
He agreed with many of the things I told him about including parts I had received and echoed the sentiments of many on here that it's an 80 year old vehicle we're working on we would shudder if we saw what they did at the factory to get parts to fit (not sure I'm in 100% agreement on the last part) and that he is a supplier and all he can do is bring this information back to the manufacturer and whether they pay it any heed or not is out of his control.

So it's a matter of people accepting the low quality and low standards of production. If enough people take the time to call the owner of the company and express their experience good AND bad with the parts they receive especially when there's a problem, the owners of these companies will have much more pressure to bear on their vendors. Again, whether that will correct the problem remains to be seen, but in my opinion just sitting back and accepting sub standard is wrong. We can't be apathetic and just bitch we have to take action and contact vendors, suppliers etc if we ever hope to get better parts for these vehicles and keep them on the road for another 80yrs.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by todd3131

I thought you only restored model A's do you post photos of the other cars you work on somewhere?

Todd, we do other marques beside Model-A. It's just that the A is our mainstay. Look for us on Facebook and where there are a few pictures of other marques there. Honestly, we do not post photos of the majority of the vehicles we work on (Model-A or other) simply because I don't feel there is a need to post each and every one. Just enough variety to show what our capabilities are and pique the interest of a potential customer.

Originally Posted by sconnors

So it's a matter of people accepting the low quality and low standards of production. If enough people take the time to call the owner of the company and express their experience good AND bad with the parts they receive especially when there's a problem, the owners of these companies will have much more pressure to bear on their vendors. Again, whether that will correct the problem remains to be seen, but in my opinion just sitting back and accepting sub standard is wrong. We can't be apathetic and just bitch we have to take action and contact vendors, suppliers etc if we ever hope to get better parts for these vehicles and keep them on the road for another 80yrs.

Playing Devil's Advocate with you, let's use the reproduction 1931 front fender as an example. Suppose you purchase one from your vendor and complain after you receive it about all of the issues. You demand the manufacture needs to upgrade the quality. The vendor contacts the manufactures and says if the quality is not upgraded, then I as a vendor refuse to purchase any others. The response of the manufacturer is that he cannot justify spending any additional funds to re-tool to make the quality better. Therefore in a kind way, the manufacturer tells the vendor to either accept what is available, --or do buy them at all.

So where does that leave you?? If you have nothing, ...something is at least better. Personally, I would rather see Bob continue to manufacture front fenders with issues, than to cease production totally.

Another great example, ...what do you do if you need a replacement rear axle shaft? Production has ceased on newly manufactured ones, ...and good-quality original units are getting much harder to find. When the supply of good used units dries up to the point where they are fetching a large sum, then we look to having them custom manufactured, --or we look to having them manufactured offshore at a cheaper price. Suppose nice used ones start fetching $500 a piece, and someone without a large capitol outlay goes to China and has new ones made there for $350. Naturally the off-shore manufactured unit's quality will not be as great when compared to the OE unit, but at $150 less $$ --AND the convenience of obtaining one thru a catalog, which do you feel the hobbyists will purchase? THAT is what this who thread is about and why it is what it is!!

[DougVieyra]

Because of this issue (poor quality of many reproduction parts), I do appreciate the fact that some of the vendors (Bert's and Bratton's come to mind) have a note on some of their parts that says something like: " The best of two available". And on some items: "USA Made" ($$$) and "Foreign Made" ($$). That gives the consumer a choice of quality level. I know that this option applies only to some items, not all. But when it is available I gladly pay the higher price for a (mostly) better made USA product, and ALWAYS take the "Best of two available", ignoring any cost difference.

- Doug Vieyra - Eureka, Calif - overcast, high of 62 degrees

[Y-Blockhead]

I've also notice in Snyder's and Mike's where they state "Use original if possible". That tells me a lot about a vendors honesty.

[ericr]

LOL we have this discussion every several months here.

On a more positive note, we should all feel fortunate that we have the internet and blogs and YouTube to publicize these mis-adventures and cures. Those of us that "restored" our cars back in the '70s and '80s had no such option, and we were flying blind on a lot of things.

[tiger.1000]

It's all very well saying that crap repro parts are a good excuse to hone ones engineering skills but it must be remembered that many old A's are owned by passionate enthusiasts who barely know what a spanner (wrench) looks like, never mind how to actually use one!

Furthermore many folk do not have big enough wallets to pay someone else to do the work for them.

It really is up to manufacturers and suppliers to get their respective acts together !
Mind you, having said that I think I'm "flogging a dead horse" !

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by ericr

Those of us that "restored" our cars back in the '70s and '80s had no such option, and we were flying blind on a lot of things.

Wahaha, My car must have been one of the cars that was "restored back in the '70s and '80s" because some of the things done they must of been done while "flying blind on a lot of things".

But that's OK. It's my first A and I've only owned my '30 Town Sedan a couple of months now and am "correcting" some of the things that were restored back in the day as I go along.

Just replaced my bent tie rod this morning and I'll tell you the new one is much heavier than the old one... Installed 'Bronze Impregnated Teflon' seats in the tie rod and drag link ends also. Steers much better now!!

It'll never be a points car but I love the car and driving it.

[sconnors]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Todd, we do other marques beside Model-A. It's just that the A is our mainstay. Look for us on Facebook and where there are a few pictures of other marques there. Honestly, we do not post photos of the majority of the vehicles we work on (Model-A or other) simply because I don't feel there is a need to post each and every one. Just enough variety to show what our capabilities are and pique the interest of a potential customer.






Playing Devil's Advocate with you, let's use the reproduction 1931 front fender as an example. Suppose you purchase one from your vendor and complain after you receive it about all of the issues. You demand the manufacture needs to upgrade the quality. The vendor contacts the manufactures and says if the quality is not upgraded, then I as a vendor refuse to purchase any others. The response of the manufacturer is that he cannot justify spending any additional funds to re-tool to make the quality better. Therefore in a kind way, the manufacturer tells the vendor to either accept what is available, --or do buy them at all.

So where does that leave you?? If you have nothing, ...something is at least better. Personally, I would rather see Bob continue to manufacture front fenders with issues, than to cease production totally.

Another great example, ...what do you do if you need a replacement rear axle shaft? Production has ceased on newly manufactured ones, ...and good-quality original units are getting much harder to find. When the supply of good used units dries up to the point where they are fetching a large sum, then we look to having them custom manufactured, --or we look to having them manufactured offshore at a cheaper price. Suppose nice used ones start fetching $500 a piece, and someone without a large capitol outlay goes to China and has new ones made there for $350. Naturally the off-shore manufactured unit's quality will not be as great when compared to the OE unit, but at $150 less $$ --AND the convenience of obtaining one thru a catalog, which do you feel the hobbyists will purchase? THAT is what this who thread is about and why it is what it is!!

I disagree totally. Your point is we should shut our mouths and accept the garbage that's doled out because if we piss the manufacturers off they may cease manufacturing. That is part of what's wrong with this country. Nothing is made here, and we are satisfied with sub-standard disposable products and we'd rather run out an buy a new one than insist on quality of the original. I cite L.L. Bean and companies of that stature who while some of their items are made in the U.S.A., the ones that aren't are of high quality or they don't get Bean's business. In closing I'll share a few quotes from the beloved inventor of our machines, Henry Ford:
"There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: make the best quality goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible."

"Don’t find fault, find a remedy."

"A business that makes nothing but money is a poor business."

"A business absolutely devoted to service will have only one worry about profits. They will be embarrassingly large."

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by sconnors

[FONT=Courier New]I disagree totally. Your point is we should shut our mouths and accept the garbage that's doled out because if we piss the manufacturers off they may cease manufacturing. That is part of what's wrong with this country. Nothing is made here, and we are satisfied with sub-standard disposable products and we'd rather run out an buy a new one than insist on quality of the original.

I cite L.L. Bean and companies of that stature who while some of their items are made in the U.S.A., the ones that aren't are of high quality or they don't get Bean's business.

Please don't get me wrong, ...I am NOT saying anyone should keep their mouths shut nor they accept "garbage". I am however saying that many do not understand many reasons why something is what it is. Just as in restoring our cars, some parts manufacturers do the best they are capable of with the resources (equipment, tooling, skill, & finances) they have. Just because you -or someone feels it should be better does not mean the manufacturer is capable of meeting your demands! The majority do the best they can do under the circumstances they have.

[daveymc29]

Like they guy told us about the fenders that don't fit, "you guys keep buying them." If we did stop buying them and looked more to the guy "hoarding" parts, perhaps they would make them fit.Many "original" blue prints are in the gads of Model A folks. Maybe they should find a way to duplicate them and get them to the suppliers so they had a baseline for acceptable parts? I don't know the answer, but I agree the parts we get are deplorable in many cases.

[mshmodela]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Unfortunately, the ones that DO have items made have not found this to be true.

Now contrary to what people may believe, the majority of Model-A hobbyists just will not spend the extra money for a quality manufactured item. Bill Stipe's shocks are a great example of top-notch US quality, ....however he is on his last run because folks complain about the cost. Tom Rootlieb stopped production on the good 1931 running boards because the sales were poor on them. Folks would opt to purchase the ones made in Ohio that were made out of a thinner metal and were not correctly made. Chris Robinson made a really nice crankshaft but halted production because people would not pay the price he needed to make a profit. There are so many other quality pieces for the Model-A such as Sport/Special Coupe top mouldings, terne-finished running board trim, etc. that have dropped off the market simply because the demand for a quality item was not there, ...especially if there was a cheaper alternative available.

Too bad to hear, I've got 4 shocks ordered from bill.. I figured was the lowest cost to keep my car with original parts as possible... Lots of old shocks out there that would cost me a little less and likely not to last give they are 83 years old...

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by mshmodela

Too bad to hear, I've got 4 shocks ordered from bill.. I figured was the lowest cost to keep my car with original parts as possible... Lots of old shocks out there that would cost me a little less and likely not to last give they are 83 years old...

I think Bill and the shocks are a poor example, his shocks sold out and there is a waiting list for new ones. I remember that the reason they stopped making them had to do more with the loss of the machinery then sales.

Not knowing anything about machining, but I would think a repetitive method of re-manufacturing could be found using at least original cases, and covers. but as I said I don't know.

There are several threads on how to make the fenders fit properly. It seems to me that the cost to make the repros fit is less then the amount to repair originals in a lot of cases.

How many units (years) of a "perfect" fit part is needed to sell to get back a tooling investment?

Let's look at Bratton's attempt to have ammeters built. He wanted 2000 units built. Right now they get, what 8.25, lets say it takes that much to make one "perfect", $8.25 x 2000 = $16,500 If they sell for $20.00 that's 835 units before break even. How many do you think are sold each year? Even if my manufacturing price is wrong and it cost 4.00 to make each one, that still 400 units before break even, more if the parts are wholesaled out.

Complain, absolutely If there is a difference between runs of the same item then maybe something can be done.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

I think Bill and the shocks are a poor example, his shocks sold out and there is a waiting list for new ones. I remember that the reason they stopped making them had to do more with the loss of the machinery then sales.

Not knowing anything about machining, but I would think a repetitive method of re-manufacturing could be found using at least original cases, and covers. but as I said I don't know.

There are several threads on how to make the fenders fit properly. It seems to me that the cost to make the repros fit is less then the amount to repair originals in a lot of cases.

How many units (years) of a "perfect" fit part is needed to sell to get back a tooling investment?

Let's look at Bratton's attempt to have ammeters built. He wanted 2000 units built. Right now they get, what 8.25, lets say it takes that much to make one "perfect", $8.25 x 2000 = $16,500 If they sell for $20.00 that's 835 units before break even. How many do you think are sold each year? Even if my manufacturing price is wrong and it cost 4.00 to make each one, that still 400 units before break even, more if the parts are wholesaled out.

Complain, absolutely If there is a difference between runs of the same item then maybe something can be done.

The shocks are a great example of how people are reluctant to spend money on quality pieces. The reason they sold out is the same reason why bread & milk sell out at the grocery store just before a big store comes.

Your example of the Ammeter is a good one. The price of US labor has become too expensive for us to compete globally. Because a 2,000 piece run of Ammeters is not worth the time to engineer and build many automated assembly fixtures, much of it would need to be assembled & tested by hand. The price of a conscientious skilled worker that does not need oversight or supervision will cost well above $35.00 per hour by the time labor burden & wage is factored in. Factoring 5 minutes per unit to assemble, test, clean & package each Ammeter, this puts the unit at about $3.00 a piece for labor only without any allocation for the materials needed. This same cost in a 3rd World country will likely be less than a dollar per unit Also remember that Brattons cannot just say the extra labor costs do not matter because they know their price point must not get too high since they already have an Ammeter competitor with an established price. If the US manufactured one gets priced too high (because of those extra production costs), then the consumer will continue to buy the cheaper/inferior quality unit. History has proven that with Model-A consumers.

[denis4x4]

It would be interesting to see a breakout as a percentage of the number of Fordbarn/Aooga A owners that:
1. Have finished drivers and/or points cars
2. Have projects needing parts/pieces/labor to finish
3. that are represented as a percentage of the total A owner population
4. Read the posts and move on

I've been involved in the automotive accessory aftermarket for 50 plus years and I can get some pretty solid numbers on owner's wants by year, make and purpose. On the other hand, I've got a project for an A/B motor item that would retail for under $30.00. However, getting solid numbers to justify the next step of creating tooling is on hold as there are really no numbers out there relating to the 4 items I listed above.

I keep referring to SEMA as they have created and maintained a data base that is available to aftermarket manufacturers. Does MARC or MAFCI have such a data base? That would go a long way towards giving manufacturers hard info to use in making a decision on whether or not to go into production on a specific A/B part.

While I think that the growth of the A hobby is on the decline, I do think that those under 40 years old coming on the scene are better equipped to pay a fair price for quality repro parts.

[H. L. Chauvin]

If one wants to add "re-built" shocks to the Parts Rant topic, it would not be out of order.

After testing some recently "re-built" shocks with a homemade tool confirmed to be similar to the Ford Bulletin's February 1931 recommended article:

K. R. Wilson Testing & Adjusting Shocks, (posted early this morning),

it was found what I expected & experienced with my improperly "re-built" shocks, that it appeared like I was driving a truck with heavier springs.

I doubt seriously if many "re-built" shocks could pass this K.R. Wilson Tool test for dropping 23 degrees in 15.5 seconds with a weight of 58.80 ounces at a distance of 26-1/2".

Many "re-built" shocks appear to be assembled in reverse with resistance in the upward direction, & the weight improperly drops in a rapid 2-4 seconds as opposed to 15.5 seconds.

Glad I called Mr. Bill Stipe earlier this week to find he is still taking orders for his new shocks.

If anyone sells shocks that can correctly pass the February 1931 Ford Bulletin Test, it would be a wonderful experience to buy these & drive with properly "re-built" shocks.

[sconnors]

I bought Bill Stipe shocks last year and are VERY satisfied with them!

[H. L. Chauvin]

I bought a Bill Stipe new cam a few years ago & set it up in a pair of upside down wood forks & tested the lobes with a dial instrument only to find the lift on lobes were all perfectly equal & exact.

I also tested a newly "reground" cam from another different shop that I did not use.

After testing reground cam lifts, if I had to guess, the guy who did the regrind first drank a bottle of whiskey, then turned the lights out in his shop at midnight, & proceeded to regrind the cam while wearing his welding helmet & allowing his cigar's smoke to cloud his view.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Originally Posted by denis4x4

It would be interesting to see a breakout as a percentage of the number of Fordbarn/Aooga A owners that:
1. Have finished drivers and/or points cars
2. Have projects needing parts/pieces/labor to finish
3. that are represented as a percentage of the total A owner population
4. Read the posts and move on

I've been involved in the automotive accessory aftermarket for 50 plus years and I can get some pretty solid numbers on owner's wants by year, make and purpose. On the other hand, I've got a project for an A/B motor item that would retail for under $30.00. However, getting solid numbers to justify the next step of creating tooling is on hold as there are really no numbers out there relating to the 4 items I listed above.

I keep referring to SEMA as they have created and maintained a data base that is available to aftermarket manufacturers. Does MARC or MAFCI have such a data base? That would go a long way towards giving manufacturers hard info to use in making a decision on whether or not to go into production on a specific A/B part.

While I think that the growth of the A hobby is on the decline, I do think that those under 40 years old coming on the scene are better equipped to pay a fair price for quality repro parts.

Denis, my guess is that leadership of MARC/MAFCA could put their heads together and come up with 99% of them. The two largest mfgs. that make parts is Walt Bratton and Don Snyder. Personally I feel they have a pretty good handle whether their item has a market. The ones of us who are deeply rooted in the hobby communicate, so we learn quickly what is "in the works". Speaking specifically about your new widget, it is my opinion that you should make a few prototypes or samples, and test the market yourself. The SEMA aftermarket they serve is WAY larger & deeper than the Model-A market. I do feel you are correct in more money being spent by the younger generations but I am not sure the hobby is on the decline. Club membership might be, ...but ownership still seems to be popular.

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

If one wants to add "re-built" shocks to the Parts Rant topic, it would not be out of order.

I doubt seriously if many "re-built" shocks could pass this K.R. Wilson Tool test for dropping 23 degrees in 15.5 seconds with a weight of 58.80 ounces at a distance of 26-1/2".

Many "re-built" shocks appear to be assembled....

Henry, this is a slippery-slope because "restored" means many different things to many different people. I think for years there have been items such as starters, generators, carburetors, etc. that often times are not truly returned to 100% original specifications.





Maybe a question now is should we all contact LeBaron-Bonney, Classtique, & Cartouche and tell them that many of their kits are incorrectly sewn and use incorrect materials. Do we feel they will listen to everyone and make their kits more authentic just as Henry spec-ed them?

[H. L. Chauvin]

Brent,

Agree that rebuilt means many different things to different people as far as appearance & function.

In my opinion, a rebuilt shock should provide proper resistance in the correct direction; & as far as starters, rebuilt starters should at the very least not rotate backwards & act in reverse like the rebuilt shocks are doing.

In my opinion, carefully testing proper function prior to mailing out rebuilt items is important.

[ericr]

in partial response to some of Brent's comments, and really, to this whole line of discussion, this disgruntlement stems from the fact that people in this country are led to believe that the free enterprise system always responds adequately and satisfactorily to consumer demand. Tain't always so, McGee. It can be far more complicated than that. We should all know this because it took Henry Ford, a maverick, to detect a demand for lower-priced automobiles of quality. Which the other manufacturers had ignored.

[sconnors]

Originally Posted by ericr

in partial response to some of Brent's comments, and really, to this whole line of discussion, this disgruntlement stems from the fact that people in this country are led to believe that the free enterprise system always responds adequately and satisfactorily to consumer demand. Tain't always so, McGee. It can be far more complicated than that. We should all know this because it took Henry Ford, a maverick, to detect a demand for lower-priced automobiles of quality. Which the other manufacturers had ignored.

Amen!

[denis4x4]

Brent, you missed my point. Vic Edlebrock doesn't call Tay Offenhauser to see if there is a market for Yugo intake manifolds, he calls SEMA for info on a data base in order to make a decision. If there was aMARC/MAFCI data base, a lot of guys might take advantage of building quality parts if the market was there. Another question is how much duplication in reader duplication between the two club magazines and FAST and SOSS? Through in two websites and again, there is no good info available to make a marketing decision.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

I bought a Bill Stipe new cam a few years ago & set it up in a pair of upside down wood forks & tested the lobes with a dial instrument only to find the lift on lobes were all perfectly equal & exact.

I also tested a newly "reground" cam from another different shop that I did not use.

After testing reground cam lifts, if I had to guess, the guy who did the regrind first drank a bottle of whiskey, then turned the lights out in his shop at midnight, & proceeded to regrind the cam while wearing his welding helmet & allowing his cigar's smoke to cloud his view.

They probably have a worn out master.

[ian Simpson]

Your Model A is at least 83 years old. Do not expect new parts to have a perfect fit every time. This is not an excuse for crap parts that may come your way, but please realise that changes and wear to your vehicle over the years may render even good quality replacements a poor fit.

I have owned my 1928 Tudor for nearly 7 years and have yet to find a replacement part that is not usable, though some have required a little fettling. Maybe part of this is that I am not a mechanic. During my training as an engineer (co-op student) I worked at the bench as a fitter, where I was expected to make parts fit. For example, we were expected to hand scrape bronze bearings on very large electric motor/generators to within 1/1000 of an inch. (Clearance Specs were: 1/1000 inch per inch of shaft diam. plus 1/1000).

From my readings of this of this forum, most of the successful owners of Model As have similar skills. Although, like me they can whine about the extra work.

[dumb person]

i like the fact parts are available.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by denis4x4

Brent, you missed my point. Vic Edlebrock doesn't call Tay Offenhauser to see if there is a market for Yugo intake manifolds, he calls SEMA for info on a data base in order to make a decision. If there was aMARC/MAFCI data base, a lot of guys might take advantage of building quality parts if the market was there. Another question is how much duplication in reader duplication between the two club magazines and FAST and SOSS? Through in two websites and again, there is no good info available to make a marketing decision.

Ok, how does SEMA actually know if there is a market for Yugo manifolds? Suppose they give him data and he acts accordingly however their data is not 'real world'? Does he go blame SEMA? To me, he is expecting an organization to do his job for him. To me this is much akin to a liberalistic mindset and not the way free-enterprise was intended.

Now let's relate this to a Model-A. There is a little widget called a Rear Main Janitor. To me, it is one of the most ignorant items sold for a Model-A and I would not be guilty of owning, -nor recommend one ....however I see them on vehicles that come into my shop all the time. For me personally, I do not want to be paying extra dues for a Club to generate the funds to put someone on staff to research whether there is a market for a Rear Main Janitor! If Bill Stipe had gone to the club to ask about the need for shocks, if their polls were the same as the feedback here, the Club would have told Bill to make those shocks because people need them. Guess what, ...that ain't the case. What about an affordable counter weighted crankshaft? People talk about how they want to Tour and as such, this should be a positive improvement and an item that should sell well. Guess what again!!

With regard to magazine duplication of topics or two clubs, most people have no clue of the politics that are behind their existence nor do they care to know. Most Members/Subscribers choose whichever club/magazine appeals to them and they join. By the amount of annual renewals, I'd say most feel satisfied in what they receive for their $$. One thing to remember is Competition generally makes us strive to be better. Having no competition brings complacency.

[Del in NE Ohio]

As an owner and DRIVER of three A's, I can truthfully say I have never been more than inconvienced by an ill fitting repo part. I am thankful that so much is so readily available. When I got my first Model A at the age of 14, the only source I could find for parts was a J.C. Whitney catalog. Take a minute and look back at where we as a "hobby" have come from. If you want a "collector/historical/specialty car to own or drive, no other such car has such an abundance of parts (new repo and orig) available for a reasonable amount of $. Look what people spend to build/drive/maintain muscle cars, corvettes, etc. We've got it pretty good.

Been following this post for a while and finally had to comment. If repo parts are such a frustration, there is an even simpler solution to your frustration. DON"T BUY THEM! MAKE A PERSONAL COMMITMENT THAT YOU WILL FROM HENCEFORTH BUY AND USE ONLY ORGINAL PARTS! PROBLEM SOLVED.

[George Miller]

Every one is missing the point. As a machinist that worked in a cylinder plant. It is not that hard to make the part right. It looks to me that most of the bad parts are not made by real machinist. A real machinist would not let a bad part go out the door.

[Terry,NJ]

George, as one machinist (Tool and Diemaker, Modelmaker) to another, I always had to make what the boss said to make, Period! If he said it was good enough, get it out the door! That's what we did. If he was willing to produce scheisse, then we had make the best scheisse we could and hope no one noticed. It was out of our hands.
Terry

Originally Posted by George Miller

Every one is missing the point. As a machinist that worked in a cylinder plant. It is not that hard to make the part right. It looks to me that most of the bad parts are not made by real machinist. A real machinist would not let a bad part go out the door.