Combining MARC, MAFFI & MAFCA

[ctvpa]

I have searched the past threads, and do not find much on this topic. I tried all the key words I could think of.

I have been in this now 40 years. I know some members are very passionate on this topic. I don't want to offend anyone. I am thinking purely for the future of the hobby, not the past.

I am a member of all 3, I like all 3, all do a great job, and have great publications that supports the hobby.

With the numbers what they are, and prices are not going down any time soon. Would we all benefit from having one national headquarters, one set of directors, one centralized database, one national set of meetings, to represent one national group of people that share a common interest?

Is there a necessity for the duplication, and division; if so what do we benefit from by having separation of members who share a common goal? Would combining forces now, give an advantage to the future members, and continuation of the hobby? How are we as members benefiting from the separation; and how would unification hurt us?

Could we have a rational, calm and open discussion? Please be considerate to others, and open to ideas.

I thank you in advance for your input on this sensitive subject.

[mhsprecher]

There was a thread about this topic about a year ago, primarily about MARC and MAFCA.

[John LaVoy]

MARC and MAFCA are "social" non profit organizations and could be combined if there was enough interest. The Model A Ford Foundation Inc. is an educational foundation that was created out of MAFCA with the idea of building a museum. The reason for the separate foundation was tax purposes. MAFFI can accept large donations like cars, money etc and the person giving the donation can take a tax credit for the full amount of the donation they are a 501C(3). MAFCA and MARC are not allowed to accept anything more than the dues so MAFFI was created as a caretaker of the funds necessary to build the museum, then vehicle donations and now the operation. I happened to be a trustee on the MAFFI board and have been aware of the museum since the inception back in the 80s.

I have heard people talking about merging the two organizations, but I think egos will keep this from happening. Wouldn't it be nice to get a Model A magazine every month rather than one every other month? Maybe someday when it becomes impractical to run two similar organizations with dwindling membership.

[ctvpa]

Quote John LaVoy " I happened to be a trustee on the MAFFI board and have been aware of the museum since the inception back in the 80s. "
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for that incite. The museum is wonderful. We donated to the fund, and went out for the opening. What a fantastic day. The museum came out even better than I expected.
Maybe you saw us there, we were in a 28-9 Tudor

[Ross/Kzoo]

Thanks to John LaVoy for explaining that in a very clear manner.

[BlueSunoco]

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Someone told me at a Model A meet some time back, when this was being discussed, that a number of people that belong to MAFCA also belong to MARC, so even if you did merge the two the actual number of members would not be that much higher anyway, in a single club.

The great majority of Model A owners that I know, do not belong to either National Model A Club. They tell me that they don't really see any benefit of joining. Personally I enjoy getting the club magazines.

Probably more belong to the AACA I don't know, just guessing.

[tbirdtbird]

this question came up at our monthly meeting 2 days ago. MARC began in 1952 and MAFCA split off in 1957 for political reasons according to some old timers in our club. Something about a director wanted his son on the board or something and when refused, took all of California with him when he started his own deal. In fact, the MAFCA site states they are founded in CA. While all that starting stuff I am sure has long since faded, none the less you still have 2 sep. clubs, 50+ yrs later.

I am only reporting what we were told, I have no personal knowledge of any of this; so don't beat me up if this is all wrong.

There are definitely insurance advantages to belonging to a national club, in terms of club sponsored events. I am sure someone can explain this better than I.

[Tom Endy]

MARC and MAFCA have had two joint National meets over the years that were very successful. I attended both of them. At one of the joint board meetings someone suggested that the two clubs combine. They hung him!

Tom Endy

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I believe HERE is where the last large discussion regarding this was held. The Poll has interesting numbers. I have wondered if those who voted were even members of either club.

[redmodelt]

Who voted would not matter as this site is not affiliated with ether club as far as I know. It's kind of a combination of both clubs and the general non member public who share an interest in the Model A's as far as readership and repliers.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by redmodelt

Who voted would not matter as this site is not affiliated with ether club as far as I know. It's kind of a combination of both clubs and the general non member public who share an interest in the Model A's as far as readership and repliers.

I understand but my view is, how does a poll generated from folks who are not affected either way be accurate? I don't think it is. Kinda like me voting on what color the towels in the White House Presidential bathroom should be when I have never been there --nor do I ever expect to visit there.

[RockHillWill]

I'm with Brent on this! The decision should be made from those actually with 'skin in the game' and those that have contributed in some manner to either of the clubs.

As it is now, we have two excellent clubs, each with their own goals and rules. Most of those goals and rules run parallel with each others club and that makes it appealing to a lot of folks. Their have been minor confrontations and disagreements, but on a whole they are both great organizations. They have worked together for many years in gathering information and culling it and presenting it in the form of the Restoration Guidelines. There are a number of folks in both organizations that have contributed greatly in this endeavor and their goal is to further the Model A hobby, not to game fame and fortune and as such go unheralded.

Having two clubs keeps the enthusiasm high, and differing viewpoints only heightens the results of a discussion.

If both clubs were to merge, who is taking bets on how long it is before complaints of anarchy, absolute control and excessive demands start to run rampant and the call for 'another group to get us out of this mess' begin to rumble thru the internet?

The best way to get great magazines each month is to let competition bring forth great publications and try to get each club to send them out on time in alternating months.

Just thoughts.

[brum1]

I do believe combining MARC & MAFCA into one club would benefit the hobby in the long haul. Essentially the missions are they same, therefore we dilute the potential by duplicating efforts, resources, funds.

[steve s]

Several folks in the previous "merger" threads insisted that there are fundamental and evident differences between MARC and MAFCA. As a member of both for 20 years or so, I just don't see a dime's worth of difference. I think that the facts of joint national meets and judging standards establishes that there are no insurmountable rational hurdles. Politics and egos are another story.

I just don't buy the competition argument, certainly as far as local club membership goes; as far as I know, there's seldom a choice in any given community.

[Tom in SW VA]

I agree with Will that the two different organizations provide different views and necessary friendly competition. I also enjoy two different magazines.

My only wish would be that there would be more joint national meets. I attended the last one in Dallas and was a judge and enjoyed the interaction very much. That was 2008. Maybe it is time for another? Huh? Maybe we should have an agreement between the two boards to have joint meetings every, say, four years. What are your thoughts?

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by ctvpa

I have searched the past threads, and do not find much on this topic. I tried all the key words I could think of.



I thank you in advance for your input on this sensitive subject.

Then you have not done a good search, there have been numerous threads on this including surveys.

The conscientious was that it will never happen.

[Gary Karr]

I'm with Tom. I would like to see more joint National Meets. They are a wonderful experience.

[RockHillWill]

I will bring up the concept of joint National meets at the next MARC Board of Directors meeting. It has some potentially good points. Perhaps every third year, ie: A MARC National meet, a MAFCA National and then a Joint national meet. Out of deference to those that do detailed restorations for both the Fine Point and the Touring Class, it is my opinion that a National Meet should be held each year to minimize the deterioration of those minute details that occur from such a project. I have observed that a restorer with a two year window will procrastinate thinking he has a lot of time, only to find out that the last minute details prohibited a quality completion in the time remaining, and then with another two years to do the small amount of work will be discouraging to the point of a lack of interest.

I am aware that those who do these intense restorations are in the minority as far as participation rate is concerned, but feel that those few folks are providing the largest portion of research, details and procedures that filter their way down to the greater group for their benefit.

The National events should provide events for the ENTIRE membership and a lot of work is entailed to provide this. Do not overlook the amount of work that is required to put on one of these events and if possible contribute by helping those that have the courage to step out and host a National, Membership or Touring event.

[newshirt]

It's already done. Fordbarn has become the new "national club." MAFCA and MARC are just lingering until their members age out.

FB dispenses ten times the information that MAFCA and MARC could ever dream of. It has the youth, enthusiasm, and momentum.

Ask yourself... If you want information about your Model A, do you turn to the national clubs? Or if you want to learn about upcoming swap meets or events, do you open your national magazine? How about posting photos or videos of your problem and getting a 1-hour response?

People don't realize that the world is changing. The old "membership" model doesn't work for younger people. Instead, they have a natural affinity to the online experience. The national clubs have no clue what that means, so they ignore it. It is a completely foreign world to them. So how long can that old model last? Answer: until the members age out.

So when is the next Fordbarn national event?

[H. L. Chauvin]

Per reply #8:

"WOW" ......... anybody know if he is still hanging ...... or did they cut him down yet?

[John LaVoy]

While I wasn't a member of the Model A hobby at the time of the split I did join in the early 60s and was told at the time the split had to do with geography as much as politics. A large faction of Model A owners lived in California and felt they would be better served by an association with a club that was headquartered in their area.

Now with the use of things like this site and better highways etc. where the headquarters is located shouldn't matter as long as the activities were set up to be inclusive of all those involved. We run into insurance problems when hosting an event and this is the requirement to belong to the club that is the host, which is understandable but perhaps we need to investigate ways to incorporate any Model A owner who wants to attend an event as a member or not.

Encouraging people, young or old, to be active will keep the hobby going and deciding on one or two clubs would be come something that isn't that important, at least to me. Just for the record I do belong to both clubs, MAFCA much longer than MARC. That comes from being on the West coast and all the chapters were MAFCA connected. At that time MAFCA was pretty much West Coast and MARC was East Coast. Each approachedthe conventions and activities in a similar fashion but each have things that the other could use, again in my opinion.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

Per reply #8:

"WOW" ......... anybody know if he is still hanging ...... or did they cut him down yet?

Naw, they left the body swingin' in the breeze, the kind of treatment they used to give to pirates in 1700's Charleston, S.Carolina

John LaVoy touched on an important part of it all "...every Model A owner who wants to attend an event as a member or not....." This is the key. Sometimes the clubs become too inclusive and shun the newly interested guy out. I've seen this happen over and over again. Main reason I refuse to join any car clubs locally at least. Used to participate years ago but never again. I was never treated rudely but I sure saw it happen to others. It was a real turn-off.

[John LaVoy]

Because of the magazine I looked at how other "car" organizations did their events, magazines, tours etc. I don't look at "the other" club as competition for the Model A hobby, the competition is the street rod faction. I have attended huge gatherings of street rods, of course I was in the minority in my "stock" Model A but was still accepted. As one Model A guy who was moving over to the street rods said "they throw a better party!" When I was attending a MAFCA meet several years ago I had walked down town for lunch. I was still wearing my convention badge and was approached by a local guy who owned a Model A but was not a member of any club. They wouldn't let him in to even see the cars. With that kind of approach we don't get a lot of people to want to join. I remember years ago there was always an open to the public viewing of all the cars and the public was encouraged to attend. Now we run and hide and don't want them there it seems. Maybe we need to look at ways to show people our hobby and invite them in. I know driving the cars is one way that works well. We get all kinds of comments on our Summer Tours as we travel through various states. So think of ways to open our hobby up and invite people to come and enjoy the things we do about the hobby, the car and the companionship!

[[email protected]]

The wives have to be a part of the team to get the locals to become new members. Many years ago when I bought my first Model A I found out about MARC and joined. Then I saw that their was a local region in my area and I called the phone number. The wife of the club president answered the phone and actually talked me out of joining their club. She told me it was just a bunch of Old F*rts that did a parade or two but not much else. It was going down to just a few members. Luckily for me I later ran into actual members of this local club at a National MARC meet and found them to be active, delightful, and just great people.

Another example is a wife of a guy that have a very nice looking Model A that they used the empty out the checkbook method of restoration on it. A perspective new member of this same club showed up at an event with his "new" rusty Model A barely runner then going through a piece at a time restoration. This particular wife was rude and hurt his feelings when she told him that she couldn't believe that he would drive that PoS. He should at least get it painted before he could join in with us. Sometime they just need to know politically when to keep the mouth shut.....

On a plus side for the wives. Our club would not be the same without their participation and support. These women are a special breed when you run them in Model A in a summer parade with temps in the HOT and hardly a complaint. Also if you can find one that can crank a Model A she is a keeper.

[oliverguy]

lots of interesting points of view especially newshirt and [email protected]. I was lucky to find a local club that really embraces new members. They also really like to have families, kids and wives participate. Happens to be the Lehigh Valley Model A club.

There are plenty of choices out there for old car clubs. Likely there will be some consolidation at some point.

[nhusa]

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As a non-club member with a newly re-acquired Model A, I find this discussion very interesting.
I have met numerous people with T’s and A’s that do not belong to a club because they see no benefit or feel as though they don’t fit in.

It sounds like belonging to a local club is a bit like belonging to a church.
Sometimes you find a local church that is friendly and sometimes you find one that is not.
Sometimes you find people that think the way you do and sometimes you do not.
Sometimes they will let be part of the group and sometimes the clique excludes people.
Sometimes they encourage you and sometimes they do not.

I did join the local Model T club (not national) shortly after I got the T and go to meetings when I can - but since am not into touring 50 to 100 miles I do not fit into the focus of the group and am a bit of an outsider. I get enjoyment out of taking the T to a local car show a couple times a year and talking with kids – young and old. I also like taking my grand daughters and friends on trips to get ice cream and apples etc. .

For the new guy like me the “open door policy” on forums like the Ford Barn and the Model T Club of America are a great help. Their encouragement, knowledge, guidance, and humor make it possible to not panic when there is a problem. For me with a stuck A motor – I can’t say enough about the info and visit from a FB forum member. Without it I would probably have sold the Model A and missed out on a fabulous experience.

[spdway1]

This SURE us the truth around here "Sometimes they encourage you and sometimes they do not"

[RockHillWill]

These responses are very interesting and display a wide range of opinions.

The most obvious observation is that folks who are both members of a National club AND are here on Fordbarn are able to observe from a much wider perspective than those who are only here on the Fordbarn.

One of the major differences seen as a participant of one of the National clubs is that you can observe first hand the results of a large number of folks who spend a great deal of their own time, effort and even their own money for the benefit of the National club and it's members. The folks that have the testicles to step forward to present a national event sign up for as much as two years of work, planning, scheduling and gathering information and sorting out details, that is all done for the betterment of others, and that is a significantly different set of requirements than a cup of coffee and a keyboard, 15-20 minutes at a time.

Monday morning quarterbacks are paid EXACTLY what they are worth.

As always, just thoughts.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by RockHillWill

These responses are very interesting and display a wide range of opinions.

The most obvious observation is that folks who are both members of a National club AND are here on Fordbarn are able to observe from a much wider perspective than those who are only here on the Fordbarn.

One of the major differences seen as a participant of one of the National clubs is that you can observe first hand the results of a large number of folks who spend a great deal of their own time, effort and even their own money for the benefit of the National club and it's members. The folks that have the testicles to step forward to present a national event sign up for as much as two years of work, planning, scheduling and gathering information and sorting out details, that is all done for the betterment of others, and that is a significantly different set of requirements than a cup of coffee and a keyboard, 15-20 minutes at a time.

Monday morning quarterbacks are paid EXACTLY what they are worth.

As always, just thoughts.

This POST was WAY over due !! Thank You Will..

[DougVieyra]

At this late date in the Forum Posts regarding the merging of the two clubs, I hesitate to add yet another point. But I will do so nonetheless.

There is a definite 'Mind Set" in the MARC leadership that prevents the MARC leadership from having much of anything to do that is not concentric to the Eastern half of the country. When was the last time you remember a MARC event of any kind in the Western third of the country ? And that is the real reason why the Southern California boys formed a Model A club that would better serve Model A members in the Western third of the country. They wanted some National Events to be held in closer proximity to where a goodly number of Model A owners lived - in the West.

Fifty years have passed since those early days, but I have (perhaps I missed it) yet to see a MARC sanctioned event in California, or Oregon, or Washington, or Nevada, or Idaho, or Montana, or Utah, or Arizona, or New Mexico, or Colorado, or Wyoming, etc.

But if you count the MAFCA events that have been held in the Eastern two-thirds of the Country, I think you will find quite a few.

The two national clubs are just 'different' in their attitude. Until this issue is laid to rest, the likelyhood of their merging is not going to happen.

I think it will happen right after the Democats join together with the Rebuplicans to form 'One party for the good of the country - and to avoid deplication of efforts". When that happens, then I will revise my estimation of the likelyhood of the two National Model A Clubs joining together.

Bye the way, I joined MARC in 1959, and MAFCA in 1963, AACA in 1965.

[Mike V. Florida]

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12310

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12243

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12297

[jimalabam]

As long as there are at least two Model A'ers, one in MAFCA, one in MARC, and neither one a cross-over in both clubs; there will never be a merger. Ego-Ego-Ego!!!

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by DougVieyra

When was the last time you remember a MARC event of any kind in the Western third of the country ?

I guess the San Diego MARC meet a couple of years ago doesn't count???

[RockHillWill]

Brent, this has been as issue with us recently. We did try to extend our presence to the West coast, with the San Diego event, and it was very poorly attended and from all the first hand feedback that I have received, it appears that the western folks were not overly interested in supporting a MARC event as the preponderance of the attendees were from MARC. I am under the understanding that the organizers lost quite a bit of their own money.

Many of these posts would be more easily digested if they were more often related to actual facts.

If the fact that MAFCA events are well attended on the East Coast by both MARC and MAFCA members and the MARC event in California was predominantly attended by the MARC group, what would be the most logical conclusion using the words commitment, support, courtesy and respect?

I attended both the MARC National in Wisconsin and the MAFCA National event in Michigan the year before last. Setting aside the courtesy and respect aspect of MAFCA planning a Meet one week after the MARC event and in the next door state, the Wisconsin meet was attended by many folks from both MARC and MAFCA, while the Michigan meet was attended by a large contingent of MARC folks.

Some of the better MAFCA associated judges that attended the MARC meet went home prior to the MAFCA meet. What would that say about commitment and support? This little detail did not prevent some on the West coast from making discouraging comments (even here on the Fordbarn) regarding the 'quality' of the judges that judged the Michigan event. Those folks that put forth the effort and the time to host this event were only able to pick the judges from those folks that actually took the time to show up. Commitment?

Once more, these are only thoughts.

[brum1]

It would be interesting to have the national clubs put the concept of a merger(with all the associated benefits) to a membership vote??

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Yes Will I agree but folks will only believe what seems believable. I did make that 36 hour trek to the meet that year and I feel it was definitely a fine meet. Gary and all the hosts did a great job, ...and Yes, politics from the MARC-haters likely did play into the lower attendance.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Yes Will I agree but folks will only believe what seems believable. I did make that 36 hour trek to the meet that year and I feel it was definitely a fine meet. Gary and all the hosts did a great job, ...and Yes, politics from the MARC-haters likely did play into the lower attendance.

I truly believe that to be a terrible misconception and unfair characterization. In the overall scheme of things not many folks attend national meets of either club as individuals. Most attendees come and participate in groups, i.e., chapters or regions. They plan their schedules and events of choice within their their own little social group but often know and connect with other folks or groups from their own geographic area.

As silly as it may sound to those of us that participate with both clubs and have done so for decades, for most of these folks 'crossing over' is entering an unknown. "Will I even know anybody?" "Why would I spend the time and money only to be surrounded by hundreds of folks I don't know?"

Most individuals won't do it so it requires one or two strong, experienced folks to motivate most of their group to jump in with assurance they will indeed have a great time.

For the masses that make up either club it has NOTHING to do with politics, hatred, or snubbing. It has everything to do with personal social issues and comfort zones.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by John LaVoy

...When I was attending a MAFCA meet several years ago I had walked down town for lunch. I was still wearing my convention badge and was approached by a local guy who owned a Model A but was not a member of any club. They wouldn't let him in to even see the cars. With that kind of approach we don't get a lot of people to want to join. I remember years ago there was always an open to the public viewing of all the cars and the public was encouraged to attend. Now we run and hide and don't want them there it seems. Maybe we need to look at ways to show people our hobby and invite them in.

I've never encountered that however I HAVE heard of it occurring at a couple NCRG meets which startled me to say the least. I believe in both cases they were county fairground based events and folks weren't allowed to enter buildings unless they were registered for the meet. That seems pretty COLD to me.

The vast majority of meets are centralized at a host hotel. In this case ANYONE has the freedom to wander through the hotel, parking lot, etc., and can only be excluded from ticketed events just like everyone else.

[msmaron]

Sorry to hear that but is is based on Liability of the "PUBLIC" with the clubs insurance which is an entire can of worms we need not go into!

[RockHillWill]

I have never personally encountered a snub to any sort of person with an interest in 'looking' at a Model A at either of the National Club events. Neither club overlooks the advantage of inviting a 'newby' to look around.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by RockHillWill

I have never personally encountered a snub to any sort of person with an interest in 'looking' at a Model A at either of the National Club events. Neither club overlooks the advantage of inviting a 'newby' to look around.

As I recall, this kinda happened at the Dallas meet when there were local hobbyists who were browsing around the parking lot and had come to check out the swap meet that was across the road. I personally witnessed a host official turn several different groups away that did not have a meet badge. There was a little "ill feelings" by the ones being (somewhat rudely) turned away. I am not saying I disagree or condone the actions, ...merely saying it did happen.



Marco you are entitled to your opinion as to my comments but please do explain to myself and others how the parking lot did have quite a few MAFCA members who showed up that purposely did not register, ...and more to the point, ....how is it that as strong as the Model-A culture is in Southern California why were there not more MAFCA members in attendance at that meet?

And in all fairness, I have sat in the same room with MARC committee members who have openly used the comment MAFIA club (referring to MAFCA), so there is definitely 'haters' on both sides of the fence.

.

[ericr]

I'd like to see someone come up with a rough breakdown of which club's members are located where. Maybe geography has something to do with it----the United States is a pretty big country.

[Gary Karr]

Marco, to what you said above, I would also add economic issues and also the age issue. As co-chair of the 2011 San Diego MARC Meet, I have a little knowledge on what we went through to put on the met on the west coast. We formed the Pacific A's Region to put on the meet as none of the MARC regions in So Cal wanted to take on the meet alone. We spent many hours visiting both MARC and MAFCA regions in and around Southern California to promote the Meet. We stressed that it was a National Model A Meet right in their own back yard and all of the fun and activities they would experience. The next possible year that a National Meet of either Club could possibly be in California would have been 2016, five years later. I guess that still didn't make much of a difference. Attendance was low, especially from southern California. I wonder if we had hosted a MAFCA Meet, if the attendance would have been higher. Marco might have a point, that Clubs would have pushed their membership to the Meet. Good point. I think back on the 1990 MAFCA Meet in San Diego, at the same host hotel we used in 2011. There were tons of club banners displayed from balcony railings on the high rise. It was quite a site. That is what I had envisioned would be the case at the 2011 MARC Meet. Sadly, it was not.

[Gary Karr]

Brent, to add what you mentioned above about the Dallas Joint Meet, Dave Lopes and I were walking around the parking lot of the host hotel in the evening. It was still light out. We were looking over an E-28 Tudor parked curbside. One of the local meet officials chassed us away and told us we couldn't look at that car! He kept say "just move on." Wow!! Don't get me wrong, I had a ball at that meet and congratulate the committee that worked their buts off to put it together.

[ctvpa]

Well when I started this, I thought it would be interesting. It is. Thank you all for information, ideas and comments.
One PM told me "One is California based, The other is central mid west based". So I guess I will start one that accepts Eastern U.S.
My personal opinion - Both clubs should put it to a vote. Some club leadership is getting like Washington, they forgot that they are supposed to be representing the best for the membership. I see more people leaving the national Clubs over bickering and inside political dealings.
I truly thank those that give their time, money and effort to put on events. I've been there, it's a thankless job.
Even though I am a member of both, I made that ultimate error, that crime of crimes, worse than murder; I was weak, I am only human, and I suffered the slings and arrows of my punishment. Yes my friends, I am the one, you probably heard the story at club meetings, in total disbelief. I am the one who, on a hot day, wore the hat with the wrong logo. You cannot believe the comments. It was worse than when I cheered the Red Sox at Yankee stadium.
If both clubs are so dead set on dividing the membership, rather than promoting unity; perhaps now is the time for the development of the "Friends of the Model A Ford, United States Chapter"
Membership is declining. Cost is increasing. Members are aging. Duplication is non protective, and we could use the combined income to make a stronger base, allowing us to survive the future.
Time to make some decisions.
Thank you all.

[steve s]

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Originally Posted by ctvpa

... Cost is increasing. Members are aging. Duplication is non protective, and we could use the combined income to make a stronger base, allowing us to survive the future.
Time to make some decisions.
Thank you all.

Amen, brother!

I've read all the arguments and allegations about this huge difference between the organizations, and I just don't see it. All the folks I've met at the joint meets have been friendly, open, and focused on the cars. I assume that in any organization as rich in old curmudgeons as an old car club must be, there will be a few cranks, but, again, I just don't get it. I cannot discern any difference in philosophy or operation when I read Model A News vs. The Restorer. Can someone tell me SPECIFICALLY what these vast differences are, and then how those differences would justify establishing two complete separate bureaucracies and dividing the clientele?

Steve

[brum1]

cptv- I agree, put it to the membership for a vote, the Vast majority of the people I have met in the hobby all want ot have fun and do whats best for the hobby

[steve s]

I wonder, has there ever been any one run for MAFCA or MARC boards of directors on a platform of pursuing the possibility of merger? I don't recall ever seeing the M-word mentioned in the election ballot materials. I wonder if that is even conceivable, or do the current systems select out all but the true believers?

[WTSHNN]

(Why...oh why am I jumping in this...)

Ok.

There is a lot of misinformation that is being spread about in this thread about the clubs and it is at first comical; then sad; then enlightening to read.

I've been doing a behind the scenes project with Will the past couple months getting actual statistical data about MARC to then draw conclusions from. Using objective data to determine certain habits, preferences and likelihoods of a club.

I assure you I understand the importance of the human element in drawing conclusions about this hobby and those are taken into account in other ways; but conjecture, repetition of "urban legends" and just plain ignorance is more of a hazard to the hobby and the club of a hobby than having rival clubs.

All the amateur sociologists out there who actually care about this issue and aren't just throwing their unsolicited opinion out there to put another point on their post count under their username...read these two books.



Both were published in 2000 and are still extremely relevant today as they were back then. I've read both and actually "studied" one of them and the same cries being sounded in this thread are in these books...for bowling clubs...church affiliation...stamp collecting...museums etc.

Anytime you have an organization that has leaders there will be detractors. Those who sit on the sidelines and heckle and say "you shoulda..." That's great, there should always be someone out there questioning the decisions made by others but this discussion has been had many times over on this board and in coffee shops and in parking lots and it just keeps coming back to the same point.

So, I say this;

Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

-Tim

[tbirdtbird]

What is shocking me the most about this thread is that people/onlookers what-have-you are being turned away. Maybe some of the club members on either side think they will live forever. We need new blood, like ANY club of anything.....

[glenn in camino]

Not to worry. Give it 20 more years when we all will be in our 80s or 90s and government will finally manage to tax antique cars to where you won't be able to afford one. Remember they're a toy for the middle class.

[Bruce,Upstate NY]

I have belonged to both A clubs for many years and met many wonderful people. Any one who denigrates "the other club" is being as immature as those who make fun of owners who can't afford a "show" car. I have participated in a number of national meets but find the costs of lodging and banquets have gotten beyond the means of many of us.

[Ken Ehrenhofer]

I joined MARC in 1962 and became a member of the Illinois Region MARC. A couple of years later I joined MAFCA and wished the west coast was not so far away.
Anyhow, I think I can add something to the reason why there are two clubs. William Hall was the man who started MARC and it seems he was quite a dictator type leader, He wanted his two sons to be on the Board of Directors and thought his family could run MARC for many years to come. There was a group of members in California who did not agree with his management style and were very unhappy with Bill Hall. They decided to break away and start there own club and MAFCA was born. I was good friends with Russ Gerrits and another early member of the Illinois Region and I have letters that speak of these issues with members of the California Club, Russ and the guys from the west coast were good friends and each expressed sorrow that they felt they must start a new club, The only issue I get from the typed letter was Bill Hall as the letters are obvious that both the Illinois Region and the west coast guys were unhappy this had to happen. It is a shame this happened because Bill Hall was gone by 1960 and there were now 2 clubs. It is my opinion that it has been healthy to have 2 clubs as it has been a friendly competition with each doing the best they can to become the better club. Although it has created a lot of friction with some members between the 2 clubs unfortunately. I have shared the written proof of these early problems in the club and I think all should know the truth instead of spreading misinformation.
Personally I am sorry to hear all the bad stories from members on the barn about local clubs. I have met life long friends and have enjoyed the hobby and both clubs since 1962. Today I went to a birthday party for a good Model A/T friend for his 90th Bday.
I cannot say enough good things about all the great people I have met in MARC/MAFCA and now of course MAFFI. I had a great time in Dallas and San Diego was over the top as one of the best meets I have ever attended. You guys who are not joining the Nationals (either) are missing the most fun ever......We toured the USS Midway and went to the San Diego Zoo and had great fun with the Model A's. I sure feel sorry for those of you who have not participated or have had a bad experience.....you are missing a lot.

[DougVieyra]

ctvpa : "I . . . wore the hat with the wrong (club) logo. You cannot believe the comments. It was worse than when I cheered the Red Sox at Yankee stadium."
____________________________________________
ctvpa _

Your post about wearing the 'wrong' cap, reminded me of something that I enjoy doing on occasion .

Before I attend a Model A Club meeting, I 'adjust' my '31 Ford Model A, with Chevy Hubcaps on my 18" Ford wheels, put Chevrolet logo step-plates on my running boards, put an adhesive-backed Chevrolet Radiator Emplem on top of my Ford logo.

I then wait to see what fun ensues !

Every one seems to throughly enjoy the light hearted jest - there are no sour grapes.

It should be easier to merging two seperate, but of similiar interests, Model A Clubs, to 'get along' in comradary and good fraturnal cheer.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by steve s

I wonder, has there ever been any one run for MAFCA or MARC boards of directors on a platform of pursuing the possibility of merger? I don't recall ever seeing the M-word mentioned in the election ballot materials. I wonder if that is even conceivable, or do the current systems select out all but the true believers?

Since the purpose of an officer is to maintain at the least, and grow a club at best, would want to run on the platform he/she wants to dissolve the club?

[jimalabam]

Re. Brent, your last comment. Being a member of MAFCA since 1984, and MARC for many years, SEE, IL vs CA egos still exist after all these years. I do believe the vast majority of members of both clubs would not oppose a merger. Example: Many local clubs are Jointly MARC and MAFCA. Continue those great restorations your shop produces. Jim Langley...

[RockHillWill]

Mike V. Your assessment on this issue is spot on my friend. P.S. I REALLY appreciate your behind the scene efforts, keep pounding.

Tim: I believe in your response as well and learning your background adds credence to your response. I am especially 'in line' with your comment about either lead, follow or get out of the way. My involvement with superspeedway racing makes that attitude abundantly clear. If one car can travel at 201 MPH and another car will only go 198 MPH, if they line up in line with each other they are capable of perhaps 204 MPH. Drivers, respectful of each others efforts will take turns leading and following to share the burden of air resistance vs overheating engines. This 'dance' is a joy to watch, knowing the efforts that both teams committed to the show and that each driver has an intent desire to do well not just for himself, but for all the folks that stand behind them and have invested their efforts to create success.

This is all done for the benefit of those watching, but nobody benefits from a caution flag caused by 'debris', especially if it is caused by someone that has put forth NO effort to put on the show.

P.S. I REALLY appreciate the efforts you are providing as well. I will have more info for you in the near future.

I have had many opportunities to get to know contributing members from both clubs and just don't see the animosity that has been discussed. I can understand the occurrence of an individual having a 'bad moment', as it occurs often throughout life, but to assign this as a club 'directive' is just ill advised.

I am also aware that members of both of the clubs Directors speak to each other, share advice , compare notes and offer assistance. Clearly there are differences of opinions on some approaches, but I have experienced no disrespectful encounters.

These are my personal viewpoints.

[steve s]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Since the purpose of an officer is to maintain at the least, and grow a club at best, would want to run on the platform he/she wants to dissolve the club?

Merging and roughly doubling the size is not exactly dissolving.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Steve I'm not sure it would double as a lot of folks belong to both now. Maybe see one club with about 14,000-15,000 members just a hunch. And then there would be the ones who dropped out completely because of change.

New magazine would be called " The Restorer MAN"-------------------in movie form-------- coming soon to a theatre near you---------- Arnold Schwarnegger as THE MAN battling the evil influence of Street Rodding Predators

[steve s]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

Steve I'm not sure it would double as a lot of folks belong to both now. Maybe see one club with about 14,000-15,000 members just a hunch. And then there would be the ones who dropped out completely because of change.
...

You're right, of course--silly oversight on my part, especially since I'm one of those who belongs to both.

But, as a member of both, I am still mystified about what exactly is so awful about either club that could possibly prevent anyone from maintaining their membership in a merged entity. The magazines are both very nice, but indistinguishable. We have agreement on judging standards and joint meeting protocols. Local clubs operate relatively independently. What else is there?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by steve s

You're right, of course--silly oversight on my part, especially since I'm one of those who belongs to both.

But, as a member of both, I am still mystified about what exactly is so awful about either club that could possibly prevent anyone from maintaining their membership in a merged entity. The magazines are both very nice, but indistinguishable. We have agreement on judging standards and joint meeting protocols. Local clubs operate relatively independently. What else is there?

Say W H A T???..........................

[brum1]

The judging standards are published jointly by MARC & MAFCA. Why would anyone dispute this Best to stick with majority rules in these types of matters and the naysayers will eventually become insignificant

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by brum1

The judging standards are published jointly by MARC & MAFCA. Why would anyone dispute this Best to stick with majority rules in these types of matters and the naysayers will eventually become insignificant

I am not going to discuss this here but it is very evident some folks are kinda naïve regarding much of this. One thought for you to ponder is why do you suppose it has taken so many years for the J/S to be updated??

[steve s]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I am not going to discuss this here but it is very evident some folks are kinda naïve regarding much of this. One thought for you to ponder is why do you suppose it has taken so many years for the J/S to be updated??

Brent,
Why not discuss it here? It sounds like it's on topic. Please enlighten the naïve amongst us. Is there a serious divide along MARC/MAFCA party lines? What's the issue? Is there talk of reneging any of the vast areas of prior agreement? Details please, if you have them. Thanks!
Steve

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by steve s

Brent,
Why not discuss it here? It sounds like it's on topic. Please enlighten the naïve amongst us. Is there a serious divide along MARC/MAFCA party lines? What's the issue? Is there talk of reneging any of the vast areas of prior agreement? Details please, if you have them. Thanks!
Steve

Steve, first off just because it is a public forum should not, --and does not give the right to discuss anything someone feels like they have the right to know. My suggestion is if you truly want to know more, --or actually be more informed, then may I suggest you become more involved in first-hand participation so you truly know what is going on. That way you are not spreading 2nd-hand hearsay.

[Mike V. Florida]

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Originally Posted by steve s

Merging and roughly doubling the size is not exactly dissolving.

One or both still goes away.

[RockHillWill]

Just a discussion between non-participants solves doesn't solve didely-squat. You guys that know me have heard me say often that the best way to tell if some one is a 'giver' or a 'taker' is: The 'taker' says "this is what I don't like, and I want YOU to do something about it", while the 'giver' says" this looks like it might be an issue and here is what WE can do to address it".

I submitted an application to join the MARC BOD as a way to give back to ALL the folks that have helped me achieve my goals regarding the Model A. I have had abundant help from both MARC and MAFCA members and a BUNCH of folks here on the Fordbarn have been enormously helpful. I chose to apply to MARC because more of my closer associates were MARC members and the meetings were much closer to home, but I have many friends in MAFCA as well and know that both clubs are working hard for club growth and member benefits.

What has been a little surprising to me is the fact that after being in the meetings and reviewing many facts and documents and arriving at a decision among those folks that showed up and contributed to the meetings, is the degree to which non-participants and non-contributors have an 'opinion' of their own on the matter.

The folks that are involved in the National and Regional clubs are for the most part hard working 'givers' with a strong intent to help others. There have been many good ideas floated around here, and I would encourage those of you with confidence in your opinions to step forward and run for a national or regional office. It will give you a much wider horizon from which to choose your sunrise.

The people that are responsible for making these decisions can only discuss it and vote for with those that took the initiative to show up.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by rockhillwill

just a discussion between non-participants solves doesn't solve didely-squat. You guys that know me have heard me say often that the best way to tell if some one is a 'giver' or a 'taker' is: The 'taker' says "this is what i don't like, and i want you to do something about it", while the 'giver' says" this looks like it might be an issue and here is what we can do to address it".

I submitted an application to join the marc bod as a way to give back to all the folks that have helped me achieve my goals regarding the model a. I have had abundant help from both marc and mafca members and a bunch of folks here on the fordbarn have been enormously helpful. I chose to apply to marc because more of my closer associates were marc members and the meetings were much closer to home, but i have many friends in mafca as well and know that both clubs are working hard for club growth and member benefits.

What has been a little surprising to me is the fact that after being in the meetings and reviewing many facts and documents and arriving at a decision among those folks that showed up and contributed to the meetings, is the degree to which non-participants and non-contributors have an 'opinion' of their own on the matter.

The folks that are involved in the national and regional clubs are for the most part hard working 'givers' with a strong intent to help others. There have been many good ideas floated around here, and i would encourage those of you with confidence in your opinions to step forward and run for a national or regional office. It will give you a much wider horizon from which to choose your sunrise.

The people that are responsible for making these decisions can only discuss it and vote for with those that took the initiative to show up.

hear hear!!!

[RockHillWill]

Just to be clear, my references to 'givers' and 'takers' is not aimed specifically at this forum, but I was mainly referring to the wide range of input that I get and am amazed/amused at the range of responses that spring forth.

As in my restoration projects, I monitor this forum often and will admit to using some form of many good ideas brought forth here on Fordbarn. I have been blessed to receive many behind the scene discussions that are brought forth by several great contributors. I also read all the posts offering advice as the folks that are not members of a national club offer a perspective that I don't encounter at these events. I have been able to incorporate many of the good ideas found on this site, but I also give some to the parakeet.

[tbirdtbird]

I think the original direction of this post (re-read post #1) is slowly dissolving away.

[ctvpa]

I don't think this dissolving the meaning of the post, I have learned a lot. But my merger question, I have found, is a question asked by many.
Does anyone know, or have access to what the national offices operating costs are? What do the paid employees make?
I would be interested.
I have emailed both national headquarters for a copy of the club's annual report. But does anyone have any inside information?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by ctvpa

But my merger question, I have found, is a question asked by many.

Yes, that is probably true just like many US citizens cannot understand why we have Republicans and Democrats. The comment is often made that those two parties just need to merge. Sounds logical to the unversed.

Originally Posted by ctvpa

Does anyone know, or have access to what the national offices operating costs are? What do the paid employees make? I would be interested.
I have emailed both national headquarters for a copy of the club's annual report. But does anyone have any inside information?

For about 4 years I was the Treasurer for the Model T Ford Club Int'l, and I often would furnish a Financial Statement to members who had questions or concerns. Therefore any member of the particular club should have access to the club's Annual Financial Statement from that club's Treasurer.




The one thing as a businessman that I have never understood when suggestions like come up is exactly what do you feel you are going to gain by a merger? From my experiences, the 3 biggest costs associated with a club's operation is magazine's Printing, Postage, and Publishing (Editor expenses). The two clubs publish a total of 12 magazines annually. If you have a merging of both clubs, the costs to produce the magazine basically stay the same since you are still producing a total of 12 magazines.

As far as administration costs, how much do you feel you are saving there? When you break it down 'as-is', both clubs are likely running "lean" anyway. When you factor in that you have some dual-memberships, if you have a merge, you will have less employee burden however you are also losing revenues from less overall members (single club vs. dual club members) and as such, you have less people to amortize those costs over. Therefore you have gained nothing financially there either.

I would however, like for someone to actually explain how they feel there would be a benefit financially. Realistically, a merge does nothing financially for a member as far as saving them money. One needs to remember these entities are non-profit and as such do not pay property taxes on assets and they cannot profit off of their members. That means the revenues generated off of dues and club sales are appropriated to the overhead costs of operating the club and not for any type of profit.

.

[denis4x4]

Having some experience in the publishing business, I have to say that there would be a considerable savings by putting out 12 issues from a single source rather than six issues from two sources.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by denis4x4

Having some experience in the publishing business, I have to say that there would be a considerable savings by putting out 12 issues from a single source rather than six issues from two sources.

Do you really think that exactly the same thing coming from a single source would cost less? Playing with simple estimates (not knowing the actual membership counts) it would play out like this. Right now the printer maybe does 14,000 copies for one club on even numbered months and on odd numbered months does 11,000 different copies for the other. Now combine those and you end up with maybe 19,000 -20,000 copies every month. Where would the huge savings come from? Of course it would require increasing dues to the current total of both clubs combined to pay for the extra circulation x12 instead of 6. Doesn't it start to get interesting when you begin looking at the details and logistics?

I agree with Brent as I see NO advantage to this dream so many seem to share. I see no advantage to the hobby and certainly not to me! I'm one of those odd people that appreciates options and certainly takes advantage of having those options.

Maybe next Winter when everyone has been cooped up we can talk about merging Pepsi and Coca Cola!

[nhusa]

Originally Posted by nhusa

As a non-club member with a newly re-acquired Model A, I find this discussion very interesting.
I have met numerous people with T’s and A’s that do not belong to a club because they see no benefit or feel as though they don’t fit in.

It sounds like belonging to a local club is a bit like belonging to a church.
Sometimes you find a local church that is friendly and sometimes you find one that is not.
Sometimes you find people that think the way you do and sometimes you do not.
Sometimes they will let be part of the group and sometimes the clique excludes people.
Sometimes they encourage you and sometimes they do not.

I did join the local Model T club (not national) shortly after I got the T and go to meetings when I can - but since am not into touring 50 to 100 miles I do not fit into the focus of the group and am a bit of an outsider. I get enjoyment out of taking the T to a local car show a couple times a year and talking with kids – young and old. I also like taking my grand daughters and friends on trips to get ice cream and apples etc. .

For the new guy like me the “open door policy” on forums like the Ford Barn and the Model T Club of America are a great help. Their encouragement, knowledge, guidance, and humor make it possible to not panic when there is a problem. For me with a stuck A motor – I can’t say enough about the info and visit from a FB forum member. Without it I would probably have sold the Model A and missed out on a fabulous experience.

OK here goes -- I quoted myself because I wanted to remind everyone where I am coming from.

First I have a right to my opinion even if I do not currently belong to an A club - I live in NH and no-one is going to tell me that I don't have that right. in fact club officers should listen and learn from outsiders to learn what they think and possibly make the club better

Second I don't care about the politics or egos I care about learning about my A, having fun, meeting people, and my family.

I purchased the Judging standards book because I was told that it was an essential resource for an A owner. I almost didn't purchase it because of the name. I don't want to have my A judged - all I want to know what is correct for it and how to fix things - and have fun.

I appreciate the super correct model A trailer queens but to use the words of a guy at a car show that was looking at my scruffy T "this is the only real car here - the others are just ego sleds" It made me very happy because it was my Dad's T and I was a bit embarrassed by it when I was in Jr high because it was not a brass show winner. By the way it received 3rd place in class out of about 25 cars at that show - but the fun was talking with people and enjoying the day.

So to put it straight I don't care about MTFCA, MARC, or MAFFI except for the information they provide, the people I meet, the fun & enjoyment, and the opportunities they give me to spend time with my family. Thus it will depend upon the chemistry in the local club.

You can call me selfish if you want but I intend to speak my mind and "Live Free or Die"
After all my mom and dad brought me up to be a true independent Yankee and no-one will tell me what to think - including the press


Will - FYI I usually spend my Friday nights in the tower at a NASCAR short track We are not the 200 mph guys but in my opinion the weekly shows are where the "real racing happens". We host a few special shows each year that include big Super Modified Show, a few touring Modified groups, and the midgets. And Ritchie Evans was a personal friend when I was in NY

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by nhusa

First I have a right to my opinion even if I do not currently belong to an A club - I live in NH and no-one is going to tell me that I don't have that right. in fact club officers should listen and learn from outsiders to learn what they think and possibly make the club better

Second I don't care about the politics or egos I care about learning about my A, having fun, meeting people, and my family.

Many you sure can tell someone who is from New Hampshire but you sure can't tell him nothin'!!

[Wallace]

Newshirt got it all right...I belong to both...but I check Forrdbarn every morning, and rarely think about the national clubs...A long term decline is in the offing for both clubs.

[RockHillWill]

From nhusa: "I appreciate the super correct model A trailer queens but to use the words of a guy at a car show that was looking at my scruffy T "this is the only real car here - the others are just ego sleds" .

My take on the 'trailer queen'/'ego sled' issue differs from 'the guy at the car show'. During my 24 years in Cup racing I built more than 80 complete Winston Cup cars and a multitude of various other sanctioned style cars including the prototype independent front suspension first revealed in the Modifieds by Ritchie Evans. I recently saw this car when I visited Ray Evernham's shop to look at his LSR car, I digress. The more enjoyable projects for me were the rebuilds, the show cars and the 'tribute' cars. Among the ones that I am more proud of was the car that Bill Elliot won the Winston million dollar bonus at Darlington. It currently resides in the Henry Ford museum in Dearborn at Greenfield Village. Quite a bit earlier I restored a 1972-73 Dodge for Richard Petty that was sent to the Smithsonian Institute in Washington, DC, and several years ago at the onset of my first Fine Point project, I met a gentleman at Hershey who was shopping at my site. He worked at the Smithsonian and had seen the Petty car and when he learned I was restoring a Model A he mentioned that he had seen some of the 'scoring' cars and was knowledgeable of the fact that in Fords history, there was more technical information available for the Model A that for any other time frame and for any of the automobile brands.

As he was leaving, he turned to me and encouraged me to do the Model A restoration, as it was his opinion that the cars scoring in the upper portion of Fine Point judging would result in a car that would be 'an American icon, bordering on a National Treasure'. My perspective from that day to this day has been that it is much more than owning a 'trailer queen' and more about preserving history, and that those folks who have diligently spent their time and money researching and restoring to the highest levels own more than a 'trailer queen', but are preserving American artifacts that represent the history of the one man who's company provided the single greatest contribution to the Industrial Revolution in the greatest country in the free world.

It is always easier to pontificate from the prone position as opposed to standing upright facing the wind.

As always, this is just my perspective.

[modelAsteve]

The Judging Standards are only a guide as to what the club wants. It has little to do with what came down the assembly line and very little to do with how much fun you will have driving your reliable Model A down the road. Just my opinion!

[Fred]

Originally Posted by modelAsteve

The Judging Standards are only a guide as to what the club wants. It has little to do with what came down the assembly line and very little to do with how much fun you will have driving your reliable Model A down the road. Just my opinion!

Really !! Please tell us more !!..

[nhusa]

Will - I understand your passion for a "Trailer Queen" and wish I had the time, skill and money to own one. I have learned to be satisfied with a close to original T that was restored in the 50's and an A that has never been restored. Both went into a barn in the 60's when my dad got sick and they only recently became mine.

When I go to a car show I amaze people by letting the kids sit in my T (closely supervised) and demonstrate the cranking –and sometimes free start - of a T. It has been to three shows and has won a third, second and first place trophy against some nicely restored pre 40’s vehicles including brass Model Ts and beautiful Model As.

My passion is to share the history of the T and the A while spending time with my family – I am in the perfect place when I can do both at the same time.


You have significantly more NASCAR experience than I do.

Richie Evans was a friend. I met him when I was working in Corning's Process Research Center in Painted Post NY and helping Roger Treichler with suggestions on his modified. At that time I was also doing some sports car racing at The Glen. Steve Smith's first chassis book had recently come out and we were all trying to figure out suspension geometry, roll centers, roll axis, and where the cg was. The Goodyear and Firestone short track tire fight was just beginning.

The best way I can explain Richie is that he was a magnet, a sponge, and a friend; a magnet because people were drawn to him, a sponge because he soaked up information, and a friend because he did not keep secrets from me. When I saw him at the track he always wanted to show me what he was doing and discuss the next idea. Once we were so deep into a discussion about keeping the “big tires” fully in contact with the pavement that he almost missed qualifying at Spencer Speedway.

When my job took me to Ohio, I didn’t get to see Richie but followed his success. In October of 1985 I was on RT 70 near Springfield OH when I heard about his death at Martinsville. It affected me so deeply that I didn’t go to a race track for about 10 years. When we moved to NH I could hear just barely hear the Super Modifieds warming up at the local track when I worked in the yard on Saturday afternoons and it agitated me. Finally my wife told me that if I didn’t go to the track she was going to do something horrible to me because it made me “hard to live with”.

The rest is history – after attending a few races at the two NASCAR tracks near our home I started by helping with pit tours and eventually ended up in the tower with the race director. I would spend a lot more time there but frequent trips to China make it impossible for me to do anything but help.


So we are pretty much on the same page but reading different lines!

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by modelAsteve

The Judging Standards are only a guide as to what the club wants. It has little to do with what came down the assembly line and very little to do with how much fun you will have driving your reliable Model A down the road. Just my opinion!

You are off a little, the restorations and judging standards are how the the Ford motor Company WANTED the cars to come off the assembly line. The book uses first the documentation from Ford, then actual survivors, then best guess of the committee. Knowing they are not perfect, the rules allow for exceptions if you can prove your case.

As for the fun part of of your statement, depends on what floats your boat. Some get great pride and good feelings knowing that their car is as close to what the best minds feel is how the car was expected to look as it left the factory. Some just want a 80+ year old car that runs and stops well and others could give a damn what it looks like or how it was to originally meant to run, but they too have fun.

Combining MARC, MAFFI & MAFCA, it's been brought up before and will be brought up again.

[spdway1]

Another reason to combine clubs is that both write about the same vehicle and both use it as a front/back cover vehicle. (not taking away from the owner)
For Example: MARC March/April 2012 and MAFCA Jan/Feb 2014

[cradlescyth]

as a member of only one club (can not afford two

[ctvpa]

Point of thought, there are 22 meets on the MAFCA 2014 schedule. 8 are in California, 1 is in Australia, 3 are anywhere near the East coast.

[cradlescyth]

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I agree with new-shirt. I can just about afford one club (MAFCA) let alone

two. While we are on costs why not make some of the events hear in the

East coast. We recently had a regional event is this area and it was a

great sucess, along with making some of us easterners feel like we belong.

I would be in favor of combining both clubs. I get the Restorer mag , but

wish it came every month. This is about all I get for my money.

Thanks for letting me vent and I do wish the BARN would have events

such as cruse nights for A.s

[ctvpa]

[QUOTE=forever4;815995]This thread brings up another related topic, and that is the immediate need to combine Vermont and New Hampshire into one state.


I have no idea how this has any relevance to the issue.

[steve s]

[QUOTE=ctvpa;816288]

Originally Posted by forever4

This thread brings up another related topic, and that is the immediate need to combine Vermont and New Hampshire into one state.


I have no idea how this has any relevance to the issue.

Sometimes a lame analogy can be so distractively compelling that it actually carries the day.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by forever4

This thread brings up another related topic, and that is the immediate need to combine Vermont and New Hampshire into one state.

It makes no sense to have these two 'smaller' states exist adjacent to each other as separate entities, with duplication of services and costs to their members.

I am declaring that it would be in everyone's best interests to combine these two states at once, before they diminishes in population or effectiveness.

It is clear to me that the members of Vermont and New Hampshire should have identical interests, and their inevitable consolidation is only being stalled by political infighting of the two state governments trying to preserve their historical power and influence over the other, at a great disservice to their respective members.

Though I am not a 'member' of either state myself, and have never visited or participated in their activities for their member, I have every right as a member of the Michigan state to have a strong opinion on the workings of the Vermont and New Hampshire states, and to clamor for their consolidation to serve their members better, according to me!

I am sure member NHUSA will agree with me on all points.

BRILLIANT analogy!!

[steve s]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

BRILLIANT analogy!!

I guess it would be even more brilliant if NH and VT--and why not all of the other states--were disassembled into their constituent counties. Surely, they each have their own interests.

Reasoning by analogy--no matter how superficially compelling--can not logically prove anything; A can be "like" B in some respects, but, since it is not B, A must also be unlike B in other, perhaps crucial, respects.

Can summer possibly come soon enough?

[fiddlybits]

Originally Posted by newshirt

It's already done. Fordbarn has become the new "national club." MAFCA and MARC are just lingering until their members age out.

FB dispenses ten times the information that MAFCA and MARC could ever dream of. It has the youth, enthusiasm, and momentum........

I'm sorry, I fell out of my chair laughing at this one....

You were kidding, right? .... but I suspect you were not.

I need not type anything more than to ask anyone with a differing opinion to re-read this very thread.

If not convince, pick any other thread with over 10 replies.
You will certainly find an abundance of old timers "sitting on their porches", yelling for you to get off their lawns and expounding on how they know the right way to do everything and not to listen to any of those answers with actual facts in them.

It's a constant stream of one-upsmanship and "whether I'm correct or not is not the issue....it's that my opinion is right and theirs is wrong".

I have spent a lot of time searching this site for information and I find my self always getting tired of having to filter through all of the posturing, opinions and threadjacking. (not to mention the flat out bullying and sophomoric diatribe witnessed on a few occasions, one of them personally.)

Until this group can interact in a civil, encouraging and enjoyable way this will not be the club of the future.

Frankly, in its present "state", FB sucks the fun out of having a Model A. If it were not for valuable information buried within all the fertilizer I wouldn't come around and, although I have lots of questions, I will not ask them as I have experienced that once already.

[Jim/GA]

Originally Posted by fiddlybits

<snip>

Frankly, in its present "state", FB sucks the fun out of having a Model A. If it were not for valuable information buried within all the fertilizer I wouldn't come around and, although I have lots of questions, I will not ask them as I have experienced that once already.

I suspect that if you called the national office of either MARC or MAFCA and asked for the phone number or email address of their technical assistance volunteers, that you could ask you questions and get helpful answers fairly quickly. Perhaps not as fast as on FB, but with a good bit less fertilizer.

[RockHillWill]

My thoughts are in line with Jim. There are technical guru's at either club that are willing to dispense expert technical advice and every two months do so in writing, providing details to back up their 'opinions'.

As always, this is merely my opinion.

[brum1]

"It is clear to me that the members of Vermont and New Hampshire should have identical interests"

Your analogy falls apart here, unlike MARC & MAFCA were all members do have a common interest in the Model A as both clubs mission statement outlines

[Bruce,Upstate NY]

Love that first statement! Applies to car clubs across the nation.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by brum1

"It is clear to me that the members of Vermont and New Hampshire should have identical interests"

Your analogy falls apart here, unlike MARC & MAFCA were all members do have a common interest in the Model A as both clubs mission statement outlines

Let's see;

New Hampshire motto "Live Free or Die"
Vermont motto "Freedom and Unity"

Looks like they both want freedom, seems like a common interest to me, and look Vermont even wants unity maybe unity with New Hampshire.

And we forget the added benefit of what the two join we will have room on the flag for Puerto Rico and save money by not having to remake all those flags out there.

Lets recap joining states with common interests as declared bt there mottos. One wants to join, allowing more room for additional "members" and no additional costs in flags and text books as we will still have 50 states.

Sounds like a win win win to me.

[nhusa]

Originally Posted by forever4

This thread brings up another related topic, and that is the immediate need to combine Vermont and New Hampshire into one state.

I am sure member NHUSA will agree with me on all points.

I think that is a great idea! Ultra liberal VT and conservative NH would make a great state. The liberals would always have to be right even if they are left so we could call the new state North Massachusetts.

[Jeff/Illinois]

How about you guys out in N.Hampshire and Vemont, while your combining, we send you Chicago? We've been wanting to cut them off for years! A new state 'ChiVerShire'?

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

How about you guys out in N.Hampshire and Vemont, while your combining, we send you Chicago? We've been wanting to cut them off for years! A new state 'ChiVerShire'?

Who is "we"? I live in Chicago, not the 'burbs' or downstate and could say plenty of nasty things about you, but this is not a political forum.

[jm29henry]

Simply. I like it as it is I love both magazines ,I like reading both tech section ,and I like collecting both magazines and reading all the stories about the different cars and people .

[jm29henry]

Simply I like both , I like collecting the magazines ,I like the two different tech article and reading stories about the different cars and there owners.