modernize my 31 A

[Frank Miller]

The original question was about how to install an electronic ignition, not whether it is better. Not matter what is done there are drawbacks but each individual decides which ones he wants to live with. Our technology is changing exponentially. There are things that were invented and have become obsolete in our lifetime. I just threw out a bunch of floppy discs the other day. Remember those? Most of the guys here are thinkers. They ask "what if" and a few of them are adventurous enough to find out. For whatever reasons they are pleased with their idea. I like the idea of the primitive driving experience and required knowledge to keep the car going. Others are happy to be driving something with wire wheels and a rumbleseat. They all contribute to our hobby. So now the thread is completely hijacked. Sorry.

[jerry shook]

Right on seth. Common sence is all it takes.

[Kevin in NJ]

The question was specific.

modernize my 31 A which electronic ignition should I spend money on?

His question was not asking how to get his car to run better or more reliable.

[Frank Miller]

Thanks Kevin. I knew I did not get it exact but was too lazy to look for the original post. Four pages and I am not even sure if his question was answered.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Frank Miller

Thanks Kevin. I knew I did not get it exact but was too lazy to look for the original post. Four pages and I am not even sure if his question was answered.

It was answered in the very first reply by me. People tend to over look the original question, and the correct answers to say what they would do.

Nothing personal against you Frank, just voicing what i have observed from others.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Originally Posted by jerry shook

Brent. With all due respect. I agree with herb, the start is quicker , better millage and more h/p . I have an original that a well known gentlemen in ga tuned it up an it does great. But nothing like with the modern stuff. An dont manipulate the facs or use myths, electronics is superior in ever way . Get the test data from the ford engineers that have changed over the years to make cars better. Ford .com and the 1927 engineering technology is not still adequate and reliability . Ask the engineers why they re-engineered our cars. We are not living in 1928 to 1931. Lol

Jerry, I sincerely trust your integrity however can you provide all of us dyno tests which provides unbiased proof where the electronic ignition made more horsepower over a points ignition on a Model A engine?

And one other question. What is the purpose of owning a 1928-1931 Model A if one does not want to temporarily live in, --or experience that specific era in time?

[jerry shook]

We sale lawn mowers in our shop, when a customer comes in and ask which mower should i spend my money on. We tell then, and why they should. Does that make sense. We would not sale many if we did not.

[jerry shook]

You know some questions, are better not answered. With out common sense no answer will do.

[MALAK]

Originally Posted by dew the 31 tudor

what is the best way to add electronic igition to my 31 A ?

Since this got way off subject, as posts of this nature typically do, I'll share the schematic of my A. I know this is gonna be sacrilege/blasphemy to some. An many are gonna wonder why an "MSD"? And for those who say it's unnecessary/no advantage I'd agree but I had 2 of these sitting on the shelf collecting dust from other cars I've gotten rid of or converted to Distributorless Ignition System (DIS). If you study my schematic carefully I have built in redundancy. The Petronix simply fires the MSD and is not exposed the the inductive feedback from the coil. In this system the MSD is the most likely culprit to fail although they are very reliable. Should the MSD fail all I have to do is reconfigure the way the 2 bypass connectors are plugged in and the Petronix will drive the coil directly, bypassing the MSD. If the Petronix fails all I need do is simply put the points back in and away I go.

Is the MSD way over kill? For a low compression, A engine? YES. Will it mask other conditions (like lean mixture)? YES. This could be advantage/disadvantage depending on how one looks at it.

For me it boils down to this: Unless your 100% restoring (as close as possible) then we all accept some level of compromise as to modifications from the original and these modifications are as individual as the individual. Personally I have no problem using modern tech but don't like doing permanent mods like drilling holes/welding. My A has enough extra holes already!

I'm a Techie guy with a background in electronics/computers and am therefore comfortable with the mods I've done. When I finally get the engine back together I'll be using an Innovate LM-2 O2 meter to dial in the Carter W-1 carb and may eventually upgrade the MSD to a programmable unit that I can use a PC to program a timing curve.

Go ahead let me have it. I can take it.

[Seth Swoboda]

Originally Posted by MALAK

Since this got way off subject, as posts of this nature typically do, I'll share the schematic of my A. I know this is gonna be sacrilege/blasphemy to some. An many are gonna wonder why an "MSD"? And for those who say it's unnecessary/no advantage I'd agree but I had 2 of these sitting on the shelf collecting dust from other cars I've gotten rid of or converted to Distributorless Ignition System (DIS). If you study my schematic carefully I have built in redundancy. The Petronix simply fires the MSD and is not exposed the the inductive feedback from the coil. In this system the MSD is the most likely culprit to fail although they are very reliable. Should the MSD fail all I have to do is reconfigure the way the 2 bypass connectors are plugged in and the Petronix will drive the coil directly, bypassing the MSD. If the Petronix fails all I need do is simply put the points back in and away I go.

Is the MSD way over kill? For a low compression, A engine? YES. Will it mask other conditions (like lean mixture)? YES. This could be advantage/disadvantage depending on how one looks at it.

For me it boils down to this: Unless your 100% restoring (as close as possible) then we all accept some level of compromise as to modifications from the original and these modifications are as individual as the individual. Personally I have no problem using modern tech but don't like doing permanent mods like drilling holes/welding. My A has enough extra holes already!

I'm a Techie guy with a background in electronics/computers and am therefore comfortable with the mods I've done. When I finally get the engine back together I'll be using an Innovate LM-2 O2 meter to dial in the Carter W-1 carb and may eventually upgrade the MSD to a programmable unit that I can use a PC to program a timing curve.

Go ahead let me have it. I can take it.

MALAK, you may have just sent some of these guys into cardiac arrest!! Thanks for posting useful/helpful information and not a bunch of pessimistic garbage.

[MALAK]

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

MALAK, you may have just sent some of these guys into cardiac arrest!! Thanks for posting useful/helpful information and not a bunch of pessimistic garbage.

I think your right. About the cardiac arrest that is.

[hardtimes]

Malak,
'Techie guy'...Nah, don't believe it !!
OK..how much and how soon can you make me one up ! You sound like my 20 year old grandson.....

[marc hildebrant]

Brent had the best answer "And one other question. What is the purpose of owning a 1928-1931 Model A if one does not want to temporarily live in, --or experience that specific era in time? "

I'm an electrical engineer with way to much experience from working with "state of the art" stuff. For me, the Model A is a car and an experience into a different and for me better time. I like living back in time via the hobby, and using today's technology also. This hobby allows me to have the best of both worlds !

Sure, I could add all the improvements to the car, but why ?

Marc

.

[hardtimes]

[QUOTE=marc hildebrant;365860]Brent had the best answer "And one other question. What is the purpose of owning a 1928-1931 Model A if one does not want to temporarily live in, --or experience that specific era in time? "

I'm an electrical engineer with way to much experience from working with "state of the art" stuff. For me, the Model A is a car and an experience into a different and for me better time. I like living back in time via the hobby, and using today's technology also. This hobby allows me to have the best of both worlds !

Sure, I could add all the improvements to the car, but why ?

Marc

Marc,
You asked..so I'll tell you why..in my case.
I haven't a clue how long you've owned Model As. I've owned them for many decades, mostly because they were what I could afford and partly because they were so cheap/easy to keep going. Never owned anything pretty, like what you are sitting in. And, lots of time my Model As wouldn't start up immediately, for a variety of reasons( old battery,old wiring, worn points/whatever) Well , back when, I could actually 'push start' my A , and could for years. Couldn't do that today, even if I wanted to. Ergo, make that A more reliable...and I have and it is

[marc hildebrant]

Hardtimes,

Thanks for your comment. I can understand your point, and I hope that you can see things from my perspective too.

Marc

[jerry shook]

Marc you or for to smart and experience to ever understand (why). The model a is to simple. Hardtimes we are wasting time we could be enjoying our modern a . I just love these threads.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by MALAK

I think your right. About the cardiac arrest that is.

Not me because in my early youth I was a factory rep for several aftermarket performance companies, ...one of which was Autotronics in ElPaso. (Go look it up.) I also want to question you when you made the comment that a MSD will mask a lean condition. I think you are likely in error there because using a MSD in that condition would likely exacerbate the condition. I think in reality what you were implying is the MSD works well in masking an overly rich fuel mixtures as it has a better chance of "lighting the load" with the multiple plug sparks. I guess the three questions I would pose for you is:

A) Are we really comparing Apples-to-Apples comparing a single-spark ign. system to a multi-spark system? I say NO. Is there a Hp advantage with a multi-spark system over a single spark? I say MOST DEFINITELY.

B) Can a MSD system be operated by a points-triggered system and produce the same exact intensity of spark as what it can with an electronic triggered system? I know for a fact that answer is YES.

My point is we are not making equal comparisons because I can do anything with my stock points-equipped Model A distributor connected to a MSD that you can do with an FS electronic triggered system.



Seth, to answer your comment "pessemistic garbage" is a slam that I feel is undeserved for many who have WAY more experience than what I feel you possibly have. Remember, as a FS Dealer (go look on their website for my name) I have probably installed more of these units than anyone else who has posted in this entire thread. I am not implying I know better than everyone else but my first-hand experience should account for something. JD will tell you that as one of his dealers I have warrantied many units because for whatever reason simply because they failed on the customer. I truly do not know why, -nor did I inquire however these folks had units they had installed that created issues for them. FS has a great reputation for standing behind their merchandise and providing a warranty. My intent as a dealer for them was to uphold their reputation.

Therefore, I personally do not care whether someone has an electronic triggered system or a stock system however I do desire for any posted information to remain factual so others can make prudent decisions. Therefore my only involvement with this thread was to help ensure unproven opinions do not overshadow the facts. Citing a MSD unit is way beyond what the spirit in which this thread started as, ...and for me it really should not be too much to ask someone to provide proof to corroborate their stated opinion. If someone does that, then I can factor that in with knowledge I already have to make an informed opinion, however to imply "common sense" should be proof enough for what they want us to believe, --or stating "some answers are best unanswered" really does not prove anything to any of us. All I respectfully asked of you was could you prove your opinion with accurate data to back up you claims of why you say a Model A electronic ignition system is better any day of the week. Since you did not, may I politely ask you again to do so? Again, not possibilities or hypothetical situations but real-world verifiable data.

For the record, I have personally dyno-ed the two systems and I know what the performance differences are. Regarding reliability comparisons, I also know what I have personally experienced, and what many have stated their own personal experiences have been in this thread. I might also add that James Rogers and I are about to go do some more dyno testing, and if anyone here wants to come participate as an impartial judge, I would welcome that.

[MALAK]

Oh yea I forgot to mention; no Model A's were hurt during the installation of my "electronics". I used all existing holes for mounting everything.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by jerry shook

Marc you or for to smart and experience to ever understand (why). The model a is to simple. Hardtimes we are wasting time we could be enjoying our modern a . I just love these threads.

Talking of enjoying...I just a got a ph call from my 93 year old father in law! I just got another 'reason' to be enjoying...as he needs my help. I'm in the roadster and outta here..whoohoo
BTW- Silver lining to this thread....yeah, it's that most can/are giving seat of the pants type input. When someone starts introducing 'statistics'....well we all know that figures don't lie, whereas liars figure Course no one here would ever try that one on us,eh

[jerry shook]

Brent. Would you please post your imformation from the dyno test i am sure you got a print out. I and others would love to see it. I know you wont mind doing this, will you. Cant wait to see it.