The Ford Barn

Joe Shell · 01-11-2015, 05:09 PM

Hi guys,

I have a 1936 Ford Cabriolet which Was restored about 10 years ago. I purchased this car in October of 2012. It has basically been very reliable and runs and drives great.

This afternoon it was nice and sunny on Long Island , NY. So I backed the car out of my garage to put up the top. While I was sitting behind the wheel letting the engine warm up, I heard something snap and the engine stalled. At the time the transmission was in neutral and my foot was not touching the clutch pedal. When I tried to start the engine the starter would not turn over. It was as if I was trying to start the car in gear without depressing the clutch. I made sure the shift was in the neutral position and tried again. Same result as if the engine was stuck for some reason. I left the shift lever in neutral and tried to start the engine again but this time with the clutch pedal pushed down to the floor. The engine started and ran fine but as soon as I took my foot off the clutch the engine stalled. The transmission shift lever was in the neutral position. I started the engine again I with the transmission in first, second and high gear and when I took my foot of the clutch pedal, the engine stalled without the car moving at all. The only way I could move the car was if the clutch was depressed.

Fortunately my daughter and son in law were coming for dinner. My daughter got in the car, held the clutch pedal to the floor, while my son in law and I pushed the car back into the garage.

I'm baffled by this and can't figure out what happened so suddenly. Could it be that something jammed the transmission? The car has a Columbia but that does not appear to be part of this problem.

I have not had a chance to look under the car to see if anything looks abnormal, I'll try to do that tomorrow.

Anyone have any ideas on what might have happened?

As usual, any suggestions or thoughts will be appreciated.

Thanks and a happy and healthy new year to all Ford Barners.

Joe

trainguy · 01-11-2015, 05:24 PM

Sounds like the bearing between the input and output shaft of your transmission might have failed

JSeery · 01-11-2015, 05:26 PM

Sounds like something in the transmission has jammed and what ever it is even locking it in neutral. I would definitely think transmission.

oleschool36ford · 01-11-2015, 05:31 PM

Sounds like a spooling gear may have seized to a shaft in the transmission

trainguy · 01-11-2015, 05:34 PM

jambed or seazed cluster gear?

supereal · 01-11-2015, 05:41 PM

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A good guess would be that there is a problem with the shift forks or transmission tower that allowed two gears to be engaged at the same time. This would lock up the transmission, preventing the engine to crank until the clutch was released. Then, when the clutch is engaged, the engine stalls because the drive train is stuck. I've seen it more than once.

V8COOPMAN · 01-11-2015, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by supereal

A good guess would be that there is a problem with the shift forks or transmission tower that allowed two gears to be engaged at the same time. This would lock up the transmission, preventing the engine to crank until the clutch was released. Then, when the clutch is engaged, the engine stalls because the drive train is stuck. I've seen it more than once.

The kicker about that scenario (with the clutch depressed to push the car) is that the input shaft is turning while being pushed. He said his daughter had to hold the clutch pedal down to push it in garage. DD

Jack E/NJ · 01-11-2015, 05:52 PM

>>>I heard something snap and the engine stalled. At the time the transmission was in neutral and my foot was not touching the clutch pedal.>>>

I'll guess a synchromesh let loose. Jack rearend up off the ground. Start engine. See if it'll shift without grinding. VanPelt can prolly make a better guess if he sees this.

Jack E/NJ

Bob C · 01-11-2015, 06:07 PM

Almost would have to be the roller bearing for the main shaft
that is inside the input shaft. If it was something jamming the
gears then you wouldn't be able to roll the car with the clutch
pedal pushed in I don't think.

Bob

Charlie ny · 01-11-2015, 06:30 PM

Joe,
Doesn't that just bite ?
At some point the floor board trans cover and shift tower will have to be
removed. It be great if by some miracle the trans is somehow jammed in two gears
because of a failure confined to the shift tower. Yank the cover and tower and give
it a look....here's hoping one of the 1/8 dia pins that attach the forks to the rails
worked its way out and let a fork go where it got into trouble.
Charlie ny

Joe Shell · 01-11-2015, 07:46 PM

Thanks Charlie. After thinking about the problem I'm fairly sure something in the transmission is jammed and keeping the input shaft of the transmission fr turning. If the problem is what You and Supetral suggest, I may be Abel to fix it myself with the help of some of the guys in our efv8 regional group. Thanks again.

Joe

Mac VP · 01-11-2015, 08:27 PM

Puzzling to be sure. You rolled the car back into the garage so it appears the rear end gears and driveshaft are turning freely. Pushing the clutch pedal in separated the engine from the trans correctly allowing the car to roll. That means the trans output shaft was also turning freely. I rather doubt that the trans was locked into two gears at the same time since you didn't move the shifter while you were sitting there with the engine idling.

It seems the input shaft of the trans is locked up. When in neutral, with the clutch pedal up, the engine flywheel and clutch is spinning the input shaft of the trans. In neutral the input shaft is spinning the cluster gear, the second gear on the mainshaft, and the reverse idler gear. If something broke off and fell into the mesh of any of these gears, they would lock up. If any of the bearings that support these gears seized up, they could have locked up.

You could remove the shifter housing to look for an obvious problem with the forks,but I suspect you will have to pull the trans for a tear down.

slowforty · 01-12-2015, 12:49 AM

I think the pin that holds the clutch shaft in place broke. This is the shaft that make the throwout bearing go back and forth. Check Van Pelts site for a picture.Unfortunately you have to remove the trans to fix it. I used a grade five bolt to replace the pin with some loctite.

Neal · 01-12-2015, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob C

Almost would have to be the roller bearing for the main shaft
that is inside the input shaft. If it was something jamming the
gears then you wouldn't be able to roll the car with the clutch
pedal pushed in I don't think.

Bob

Yes. Agree.

Neal

RalphG · 01-12-2015, 09:35 AM

This sounds familiar although after 45 years I forget some of the details . My 39 Deluxe became locked up this way. AFter removing the floorboards and transmission top I found a small piece, likely a broken gear tooth, stuck in the gears. I removed the broken piece, re-assembled and it was fine. Still works today with no noticeable problems.

Joe Shell · 01-12-2015, 11:09 AM

Further to my original post on this problem, the car does roll if the transmission is in neutral.

The shift lever feels normal and seems to shift into all positions smoothly. Looks to me like something is keeping the trans input shaft from moving.

I will try to remove shift tower and take a look inside.

From what I understand, removing a transmission on a 36 is a big job. I' taken tranny out of a 1949 Ford but that's easy compared to a 36, right?

Thanks to all who have responded.

Joe

Gumpy · 01-12-2015, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RalphG

This sounds familiar although after 45 years I forget some of the details . My 39 Deluxe became locked up this way. AFter removing the floorboards and transmission top I found a small piece, likely a broken gear tooth, stuck in the gears. I removed the broken piece, re-assembled and it was fine. Still works today with no noticeable problems.

this would be the first thing i would do, pull off the shifter tower slowly and inspect..

Mart · 01-12-2015, 11:43 AM

The question is, can you push the car, with neutral selected and the clutch engaged?

I think you ought to be able to.

When you push the car, Not all the gears rotate. Only the output shaft, the synchro hub and the 1st/reverse gear move. The latter is not in mesh with the rest of the gears.

So it might not just be the input shaft. There might be a chipped gear in between the input and the cluster gear, or something similar between the cluster and 2nd. The cluster gear might be seized in some way, or the input bearing may have failed.

Unless lifting the shifter tower exposes something obvious but not terminal (struggling to think if this is even likely at all), then you are really looking at a trans removal and teardown. Luckily they are relatively simple and as long as you have some degree of mechanical aptitude it can be done.

Mart.

V8COOPMAN · 01-12-2015, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Shell

Further to my original post on this problem, the car does roll if the transmission is in neutral.
Joe

Ahhhhh.......this "rolls when in neutral" is a key clue. NOW it sounds like something has jammed or locked the input gear with the cluster gear.

Unfortunately, not as easy to remove trans as post-'48. Maybe drain fluid, remove shifter assembly and do some investigating where the input meshes with the cluster. DD

Shadetree · 01-12-2015, 11:46 AM

[QUOTE=Joe Shell;1014028]Further to my original post on this problem, the car does roll if the transmission is in neutral.

From what I understand, removing a transmission on a 36 is a big job. I' taken tranny out of a 1949 Ford but that's easy compared to a 36, right?

Thanks to all who have responded.

You are right, it is no easy task. First, I would remove the top plate of the transmission and try to see what the issue is. You have two choices to remove the transmission. Either remove the engine or pull the differential and driveshaft back far enough to drop the transmission. You will need a spring spreader for this. Personally I prefer the latter method. On the other hand, its winter. A good time to pull the engine and refresh everything. Good luck and keep us posted on your findings.

01-11-2015, 05:09 PM	#1
Joe Shell Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 72	Very, very strange! Hi guys, I have a 1936 Ford Cabriolet which Was restored about 10 years ago. I purchased this car in October of 2012. It has basically been very reliable and runs and drives great. This afternoon it was nice and sunny on Long Island , NY. So I backed the car out of my garage to put up the top. While I was sitting behind the wheel letting the engine warm up, I heard something snap and the engine stalled. At the time the transmission was in neutral and my foot was not touching the clutch pedal. When I tried to start the engine the starter would not turn over. It was as if I was trying to start the car in gear without depressing the clutch. I made sure the shift was in the neutral position and tried again. Same result as if the engine was stuck for some reason. I left the shift lever in neutral and tried to start the engine again but this time with the clutch pedal pushed down to the floor. The engine started and ran fine but as soon as I took my foot off the clutch the engine stalled. The transmission shift lever was in the neutral position. I started the engine again I with the transmission in first, second and high gear and when I took my foot of the clutch pedal, the engine stalled without the car moving at all. The only way I could move the car was if the clutch was depressed. Fortunately my daughter and son in law were coming for dinner. My daughter got in the car, held the clutch pedal to the floor, while my son in law and I pushed the car back into the garage. I'm baffled by this and can't figure out what happened so suddenly. Could it be that something jammed the transmission? The car has a Columbia but that does not appear to be part of this problem. I have not had a chance to look under the car to see if anything looks abnormal, I'll try to do that tomorrow. Anyone have any ideas on what might have happened? As usual, any suggestions or thoughts will be appreciated. Thanks and a happy and healthy new year to all Ford Barners. Joe

01-11-2015, 05:24 PM	#2
trainguy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lehighton Pa Posts: 1,085	Re: Very, very strange! Sounds like the bearing between the input and output shaft of your transmission might have failed

01-11-2015, 05:26 PM	#3
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Very, very strange! Sounds like something in the transmission has jammed and what ever it is even locking it in neutral. I would definitely think transmission.

01-11-2015, 05:31 PM	#4
oleschool36ford Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 722	Re: Very, very strange! Sounds like a spooling gear may have seized to a shaft in the transmission

01-11-2015, 05:34 PM	#5
trainguy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lehighton Pa Posts: 1,085	Re: Very, very strange! jambed or seazed cluster gear?

01-11-2015, 05:41 PM	#6
supereal Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,634	Re: Very, very strange! Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) A good guess would be that there is a problem with the shift forks or transmission tower that allowed two gears to be engaged at the same time. This would lock up the transmission, preventing the engine to crank until the clutch was released. Then, when the clutch is engaged, the engine stalls because the drive train is stuck. I've seen it more than once.

01-11-2015, 05:52 PM	#8
Jack E/NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,173	Re: Very, very strange! >>>I heard something snap and the engine stalled. At the time the transmission was in neutral and my foot was not touching the clutch pedal.>>> I'll guess a synchromesh let loose. Jack rearend up off the ground. Start engine. See if it'll shift without grinding. VanPelt can prolly make a better guess if he sees this. Jack E/NJ

01-11-2015, 06:07 PM	#9
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,743	Re: Very, very strange! Almost would have to be the roller bearing for the main shaft that is inside the input shaft. If it was something jamming the gears then you wouldn't be able to roll the car with the clutch pedal pushed in I don't think. Bob

01-11-2015, 06:30 PM	#10
Charlie ny BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 3,019	Re: Very, very strange! Joe, Doesn't that just bite ? At some point the floor board trans cover and shift tower will have to be removed. It be great if by some miracle the trans is somehow jammed in two gears because of a failure confined to the shift tower. Yank the cover and tower and give it a look....here's hoping one of the 1/8 dia pins that attach the forks to the rails worked its way out and let a fork go where it got into trouble. Charlie ny

01-11-2015, 07:46 PM	#11
Joe Shell Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 72	Re: Very, very strange! Thanks Charlie. After thinking about the problem I'm fairly sure something in the transmission is jammed and keeping the input shaft of the transmission fr turning. If the problem is what You and Supetral suggest, I may be Abel to fix it myself with the help of some of the guys in our efv8 regional group. Thanks again. Joe

01-11-2015, 08:27 PM	#12
Mac VP Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 1,361	Re: Very, very strange! Puzzling to be sure. You rolled the car back into the garage so it appears the rear end gears and driveshaft are turning freely. Pushing the clutch pedal in separated the engine from the trans correctly allowing the car to roll. That means the trans output shaft was also turning freely. I rather doubt that the trans was locked into two gears at the same time since you didn't move the shifter while you were sitting there with the engine idling. It seems the input shaft of the trans is locked up. When in neutral, with the clutch pedal up, the engine flywheel and clutch is spinning the input shaft of the trans. In neutral the input shaft is spinning the cluster gear, the second gear on the mainshaft, and the reverse idler gear. If something broke off and fell into the mesh of any of these gears, they would lock up. If any of the bearings that support these gears seized up, they could have locked up. You could remove the shifter housing to look for an obvious problem with the forks,but I suspect you will have to pull the trans for a tear down. __________________ VANPELT SALES LLC Cincinnati, Ohio Office: 513-724-9486 www.vanpeltsales.com www.classictransmission.com

01-12-2015, 12:49 AM	#13
slowforty Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Tinley Park Ill Posts: 1,060	Re: Very, very strange! I think the pin that holds the clutch shaft in place broke. This is the shaft that make the throwout bearing go back and forth. Check Van Pelts site for a picture.Unfortunately you have to remove the trans to fix it. I used a grade five bolt to replace the pin with some loctite.

01-12-2015, 09:35 AM	#15
RalphG Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Sask. Canada Posts: 2,424	Re: Very, very strange! This sounds familiar although after 45 years I forget some of the details . My 39 Deluxe became locked up this way. AFter removing the floorboards and transmission top I found a small piece, likely a broken gear tooth, stuck in the gears. I removed the broken piece, re-assembled and it was fine. Still works today with no noticeable problems. __________________ https://www.youtube.com/user/roosty6/videos

01-12-2015, 11:09 AM	#16
Joe Shell Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 72	Re: Very, very strange! Further to my original post on this problem, the car does roll if the transmission is in neutral. The shift lever feels normal and seems to shift into all positions smoothly. Looks to me like something is keeping the trans input shaft from moving. I will try to remove shift tower and take a look inside. From what I understand, removing a transmission on a 36 is a big job. I' taken tranny out of a 1949 Ford but that's easy compared to a 36, right? Thanks to all who have responded. Joe

01-12-2015, 11:43 AM	#18
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,745	Re: Very, very strange! The question is, can you push the car, with neutral selected and the clutch engaged? I think you ought to be able to. When you push the car, Not all the gears rotate. Only the output shaft, the synchro hub and the 1st/reverse gear move. The latter is not in mesh with the rest of the gears. So it might not just be the input shaft. There might be a chipped gear in between the input and the cluster gear, or something similar between the cluster and 2nd. The cluster gear might be seized in some way, or the input bearing may have failed. Unless lifting the shifter tower exposes something obvious but not terminal (struggling to think if this is even likely at all), then you are really looking at a trans removal and teardown. Luckily they are relatively simple and as long as you have some degree of mechanical aptitude it can be done. Mart.

01-12-2015, 11:46 AM	#20
Shadetree Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Cottageville, WV Posts: 1,535	Re: Very, very strange! [QUOTE=Joe Shell;1014028]Further to my original post on this problem, the car does roll if the transmission is in neutral. From what I understand, removing a transmission on a 36 is a big job. I' taken tranny out of a 1949 Ford but that's easy compared to a 36, right? Thanks to all who have responded. You are right, it is no easy task. First, I would remove the top plate of the transmission and try to see what the issue is. You have two choices to remove the transmission. Either remove the engine or pull the differential and driveshaft back far enough to drop the transmission. You will need a spring spreader for this. Personally I prefer the latter method. On the other hand, its winter. A good time to pull the engine and refresh everything. Good luck and keep us posted on your findings. __________________ Son, you will never blow an engine up in high gear.