Skip water pumps...in Buenos Aires.!!

[Harylufa]

Hi All FordBarns!

I ´d like to share my experience with my new water pumps I got from Skip. Water pumps arrived to my Country Argentina with out any inconvenient.
I have changed them last week and I can assure that are incredible. No leaks no problem at all. My engine is running at 72 or 78 Cº. The old ones worked at 87 or 90Cº and more that is why I begun a post refered at HIGH TEMPERATURE...few months ago.

I noticed a big change installing new pumps. I am very happy and I really recomend to install this product because it is worth.!!!

Thank you very much Skip for these modification are fantastic.

Hary

[Old Henry]

Be sure to notice in the instructions that Skip does not recommend the use of his pumps with thermostats.

[Cecil/WV]

I have always ran Robertshaw 330 stats in my '50 with Skip's pumps. Work great!

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by Cecil/WV

I have always ran Robertshaw 330 stats in my '50 with Skip's pumps. Work great!

I run Robertshaw 330 stats in my '51 with stock pumps and they work great!

[fomocoloco]

what is a robertshaw 330?

[JM 35 Sedan]

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I run the original tubular type thermostats that were used in '35. They are not as restrictive as the modern stats. I have Skips early style pumps. Just ran over 7,000 mile across the country and back with no major cooling problems. Engine ran ~ 190°F on 90°F + days, traveling at 60-65 mph, up and down some pretty high mountains and across some long desert runs. Not bragging...just saying.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by fomocoloco

what is a robertshaw 330?

See here-- for 8BA only
http://www.flowkoolerwaterpumps.com/...c22/index.html

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Be sure to notice in the instructions that Skip does not recommend the use of his pumps with thermostats.

>Old Henry!

My engine has never used thermostat. I read instructions.
Thank for reading and your advice.
Hary

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

>Old Henry!

My engine has never used thermostat. I read instructions.
Thank for reading and your advice.
Hary

Haryl, Glad to hear your problem with cooling has been resolved. What Skip refers to as not to use thermostats in the summer is not to use modern stats with small flow openings. This restricts the flow of coolant and defeats the purpose of his high flow pumps. If you restrict the flow there is not much benefit from his pumps. However Bob Shewman makes 180 degree stats with large flow openings that don't restrict the flow. On the 32 to 48 Fords they fit in the upper hoses and on the 49 to 53's that type fits in the goose neck housing. Bob can be reached at 1-610-933-6637 or [email protected] G.M.

[Harylufa]

Hi GM!
One question..since I bought my car never had a thermostat. Now I have just installed new pumps, Must I install thermostat? Or I must wait till summer?

This a great doubt I have now, Is it possibly engine run cool all the time? I have never got clear which is engine temperature running

"However Bob Shewman makes 180 degree stats with large flow openings that don't restrict the flow. On the 32 to 48 Fords they fit in the upper hoses"

In case install thermostat. which one? GM has mentioned above..!!!

Please, thank for answering...

Hary

[Old Henry]

Herylufa,

Before buying Shewman's thermostats read this recent thread about them and several alternatives to them: http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112889

Thermostats are important for two things:

1. Getting the engine up to correct operating temperature quickly and preventing it from dropping below that.

2. Keeping the water in the engine hotter in the winter for the heater.

If you don't have a heater #2 won't be a concern.

With regard to #1, it's a balancing act, meaning that, on one extreme, running thermostats in very hot weather may overheat the engine even with Skip's pumps and alleged "high flow" thermostats which would suggest not using them. But, then, the downside is that your engine does not heat up to proper operating temperature soon enough nor stay hot enough as you drive it.

If you're not driving your car in real hot temperatures in the summer there isn't much chance of overheating even with thermostats so it would probably be a good idea to use them and only remove them if you find your engine overheating and boiling over. You will most likely not have a problem leaving them in and may not have to remove them at all and can just leave them in year 'round. That's what I do.

[Roger/Sacramento]

I have only driven my vehicle during the warm weather so I don't know how it will be this winter in Sacramento. I do not have thermostats installed at this time and have a pulling fan on the radiator that is switch operated. On start up it gets to operating temp. fairly quick and when I am driving around town it runs at about 160. If I am at a red light on a hot day I will turn on the fan until I drive off. I use distilled water with a rust inhibitor added. I don't have a heater and it doesn't get that cold here so I will probably stay with it.

[G.M.]

Haryl Looks like your running at about 77 C Which is in the 170 F range. You said it's winter where you are and this sound a little warm for winter with no stats. I suspect this is running in your drive way or after driving and was idling for a while. In cold weather driving at highway speeds I would think you would have trouble getting the temp to 160 F. Thermostats have NOTHING to do with cooling your engine they only make it run warmer. You only need stats in cooler weather if you have a heater and or the engine driving at highway speeds don't get to 160 F. The only stats you can buy that fit in the hoses and don't reduce the flow of coolant through the radiator are made by Bob Shewman [email protected] . You do need a good WORKING 7 lb pressure cap on your radiator and fill the radiator up to the filler neck. G.M.

[Bluebell]

Quote: Thermostats have NOTHING to do with cooling your engine they only make it run warmer. Unquote:
Sorry GM, I realize you are a man of very extensive experience and wisdom, however I think your previous statement is a little inaccurate, So with all due respect, the following in my humble opinion, is a more accurate statement;

The purpose of thermostats in an automotive application is:
1. To MAINTAIN a CONSTANT operating temperature RANGE, to maximize the life of the engine.
2. To make the engine operate in the highest reasonable temperature range, which is where its maximum efficiency comes from.

The rest of this is just food for thought.
The tolerances specified in the manuals are arrived at, based on this predetermined operating range.
If you build an engine faithfully following the specifications, why would you not run thermostats?(that are an intergral part of the design)
If you are not running thermostats your engine is going to have a shorter life expectancy than it otherwise would have.
If we assume that we are more clever than the R&D teams of all the various engine manufacturers. (and I have never come across a modern indirect air cooled engine that wasn't designed to run thermostats)Then we are kidding our selves.
I don't know which thermostats are needed, and can't argue about the pros and cons of which ones. I just know that your engines need to be regulated by something that performs this function automatically.
The suggestion of a manually operated blind is fine, but if they were fitted, they would still operate in conjunction with thermostats.
Boiling point is 212 degrees on non pressurised system.(at sea level)
If you run a 7 lb cap, the boiling point is 240 degrees (at sea level)
If you run a 12lb cap the boiling point is 260 degrees (at sea level)

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by Bluebell

Quote: Thermostats have NOTHING to do with cooling your engine they only make it run warmer. Unquote:
Sorry GM, I realize you are a man of very extensive experience and wisdom, however I think your previous statement is a little inaccurate, So with all due respect, the following in my humble opinion, is a more accurate statement;

The purpose of thermostats in an automotive application is:
1. To MAINTAIN a CONSTANT operating temperature RANGE, to maximize the life of the engine.
2. To make the engine operate in the highest reasonable temperature range, which is where its maximum efficiency comes from.

The rest of this is just food for thought.
The tolerances specified in the manuals are arrived at, based on this predetermined operating range.
If you build an engine faithfully following the specifications, why would you not run thermostats?(that are an intergral part of the design)
If you are not running thermostats your engine is going to have a shorter life expectancy than it otherwise would have.
If we assume that we are more clever than the R&D teams of all the various engine manufacturers. (and I have never come across a modern indirect air cooled engine that wasn't designed to run thermostats)Then we are kidding our selves.
I don't know which thermostats are needed, and can't argue about the pros and cons of which ones. I just know that your engines need to be regulated by something that performs this function automatically.
The suggestion of a manually operated blind is fine, but if they were fitted, they would still operate in conjunction with thermostats.
Boiling point is 212 degrees on non pressurised system.(at sea level)
If you run a 7 lb cap, the boiling point is 240 degrees (at sea level)
If you run a 12lb cap the boiling point is 260 degrees (at sea level)

A lot of you guys want to quote modern statements and get into the boiling point of highly pressurized MODERN systems. I never suggested running a cold engine. By todays engines with pollution equipment and engine designs made to run at 200 degrees or higher you can't compare
the old Fords and the new engine temperatures. First of all the early engines had an open vented system with the top radiator tank vented to air. There is almost NO pressure in this system but the radiator tubes wouldn't allow the water to flow freely through it. This resulted in water backing up in the top tank and with the open vent or over flow tube the excessive water flows freely out the over flow tube. This results in a lose of cooling water reducing the amount from 22 quarts to 16 or 17 or about a 20% lose. The amount of water and the volume pushed through the system is key to cooling. In mid 40's Ford put a pressure cap on the radiators not to raise the boiling point but to keep ALL of the coolant in the system. These caps ranged from 4 to 7 lbs. Ford must have anticipated this problem for a number of years because radiators in the late 30's and early 40's were set up for pressure caps but not installed. With a 3 lb pressure valve such as Skip makes or a 4 lb pressure cap the water is HELD in the system and the system can be fill up to the neck and stays filled for months. As far as expansion with temperatures lower than 210 there isn't much and the length and large diameters of the 4 rubber hoses take this small amount of expansion. Pressure in the system is generated by water temperature and at 210 there is less than 2 lbs in the old Fords. If the pressure was much over 2 lbs the 3 lb valve or the 4 lb pressure cap would release water. If the pressure slightly peaked over 3 or 4 lbs the pressure would be released in short open cycles to let the excessive pressure off. If there was an over heating or compression leak into the system the valve or cap then becomes a safety valve releasing pressure to protect the system and people. As far as operating temperatures for these engines 180 seems to be the optimum temperate as far as I determined by my testing and is a little warmer than Ford expected by the thermostats provided by Ford at the time. When I talk temperatures I'm talking of driving at highway speeds not in traffic or at idle. With a temperature of 180 highway speeds on a 90 to 95 day you have a cushion of temperature range when getting into slow traffic and stop and go conditions. At slow speeds in hot weather the poor air flow through the radiator due to poor fans allows the engine temperatures to rapidly rise. Getting back to highway speeds as fast a possible provides forced air through the radiator bringing the engine temperature back to normal in less than 2 miles. I live where it's 90 most of the year and have performed 100's of tests under the same driving conditions. Static testing can be done at a stationary position with a large house type fan AGAINST the center of the grill with the engine running at a speed of 20 to 25 MPH.
The temperatures shown in this test will be just about the same as highway driving. This is better than just trying to drive and get temperatures because the conditions change when driving. You have to LEARN how to drive these old Fords to avoid getting them hot. As far as thermostats there can't be any restriction of coolant flow or enough water don't flow through the radiator for the forced air to cool it. I have tested lots of modern stats and any I found that fit in the hoses have smaller flow opening. These will work in cold weather but even with holes drilled in the flanges will cause the engine to get hot in warmer weather. The only hose stats that I know works are provide by Bob Shewman [email protected] I have 4 sets in my old Fords for over a year and they all run from 178 to 182. G.M.

[Old Henry]

If you really want the thermostats to heat up the engine in the very cold winter Shewman's stats are not likely to do that since they are nothing more than standard stats with holes drilled through them to increase water flow both when open and when closed. So, they do not totally close off as thermostats should to warm the engine up in the cold winter.

[Bluebell]

G.M. My point to you, was about the purpose of thermostats.
In particular, where they related to Henry Fords Flathead V8s, from the day he built the first one, that was designed to have thermostats. (after all he was determined (for a while) to have NO waterpumps and NO oil pump,in his V8) I'm not sure how he viewed thermostats, early on.

Your point about the thermostat keeping the temperature up, was a good point, that some people need to be aware of. It is however, only a part of the function.

I was referring to the non pressured era, however included the info for the pressure systems, for those guys, that were worried about running "too hot"

Good info in your previous post. Thankyou.

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by Bluebell

G.M. My point to you, was about the purpose of thermostats.
In particular, where they related to Henry Fords Flathead V8s, from the day he built the first one, that was designed to have thermostats. (after all he was determined (for a while) to have NO waterpumps and NO oil pump,in his V8) I'm not sure how he viewed thermostats, early on.

Your point about the thermostat keeping the temperature up, was a good point, that some people need to be aware of. It is however, only a part of the function.

I was referring to the non pressured era, however included the info for the pressure systems, for those guys, that were worried about running "too hot"

Good info in your previous post. Thankyou.

The original stats from Ford that went in the hoses had large flow openings and did not restrict the flow. The stats from Bob Shewman also have large flow openings about the same size as the early Ford stats. Bob's stats have some predrilled holes to move a slight amount of water at start up so a very small amount of water starts to move so the water isn't just sitting behind the stats. The small amount going through the holes may increase flow by a very small amount but the flow opening is sufficient for cooling in hot weather. G.M.

[cmbrucew]

Bluebell

Contintental made a flat head 4 cylinder gas engine, Y69, for forklifts.
They had no waterpumps. Not a good idea. Some later retrofitted with a pump.

Bruce

Works good
Lasts long time

[Bluebell]

Bruce, I have been a mechanic for 40 plus years, but I haven't seen it all. only a little bit. The only continentals I have come across are the air cooled industrial motors. (seen on welders and bailers etc) I have worked on Clarke fork hoists with the 6 cyl. in line Continentals.
I mentioned the water pump/ oil pump bit because I wasn't sure when Henry Ford, started using thermostats in his flat head. I would guess the earlier ones never had them, but like all of us, he learned along the way.
When I think about it a bit more there were quite a few makes that relied only on thermo siphon for water circulation, but they all had a lot of radiator above the cylinder head. Little steps brought us to where we are.

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by Bluebell

Bruce, I have been a mechanic for 40 plus years, but I haven't seen it all. only a little bit. The only continentals I have come across are the air cooled industrial motors. (seen on welders and bailers etc) I have worked on Clarke fork hoists with the 6 cyl. in line Continentals.
I mentioned the water pump/ oil pump bit because I wasn't sure when Henry Ford, started using thermostats in his flat head. I would guess the earlier ones never had them, but like all of us, he learned along the way.
When I think about it a bit more there were quite a few makes that relied only on thermo siphon for water circulation, but they all had a lot of radiator above the cylinder head. Little steps brought us to where we are.

Stranger thing. I have a 1945 Sawin Midget race car that has a 60 tin side engine, dual carbs and finned aluminum heads. This engine has NO water pumps. It was two 3/4 inch copper water pipes soldered from the bottom of the top radiator tank to the top of the bottom tank. These pipes run straight up from bottom to the top. I took it out to an "old timers" midget race one night at our local track in Punta Gorda, Florda. The driver of this car from 1945 Sam Packard that was one of the original 13 NASCAR founders was there to drive it. TV and news paper people were there and Sam couldn't bend his old boney legs enough to get in. Someone else drove it about 30 laps and it ran cool. I can't get in it either, I can get down in it but my legs are crossed and not enough room to untangle them with the drive shaft in the way. Number 80 is the midget I'm talking about which is a 1946. I posted the wrong picture first and couldn't delete it. The other one which I purchased later was raced on the same track in the same races which I have track roosters listing them both. I didn't know this at the time I bought it. Sam told me the guy lived a few streets away from him when they raced. 80 is all original including tires and upholstery. G.M.

[Harylufa]

Hi all!
I was reading all posted and today I changed the radiator cap. I drove my engine and It was at 69 ºC temperature. I filled water till radiator neck.

In #1 post I wrote that my engine had 77ºC...but, with new cap is different now (69ºC). Can be this possible?

No thermostat installed yet...what do you think?

Thank for posting your knowledge, I have faith in keeping a good temperature in my engine.

Thank all

[Bluebell]

G.M. That's what I meant about the thermo siphon engines. No waterpumps.

[Tom Walker]

I used to run a 1921 Hupmobile R, a very under-rated and well engineered car, which had no water pump, and a large efficient radiator. I ground the cam and shaved the head, and she pulled like train. It never boiled and in the winter I used to block off half of the rad with a piece of card, to get the temperature up!
OK this is in our miserable little island where the sun dont shine much, but all the same....!

Cheers, Tom.

[G.M.]

Hary, I have posted a hundred times the problem with MOST pressure caps on the old Fords don't seat and seal down on the bottom brass seat at the bottom of the filler neck. If the bottom of the cap don't seat you don't have the benefit of a pressure cap you just have a cap sealing on the top of the filler neck like an early style older cap. If your new cap is now seating at the bottom you can fill the radiator up to the filler neck and the water will stay there. If the temperature runs below 210 and there is no compression leaks the water will stay filled for months. I'm not sure if the depth of the bottom brass seat is a little low or if the pressure caps are a little short. On some radiators I had to add a rubber spacer to make the cap seal. Also notice in the picture how clean the radiator tubes are. These were polished by years of running Barr's heavy duty stop leak with aluminum granuals in it polishing the surface. G.M.

[Harylufa]

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HI G.M!
I must check what you say, today went out water from the tube when I stopped the engine. This happened all the time when I fill water in radiator (till neck) ALWAYS, I thought this was NORMAL.
I will check this:
"If the bottom of the cap don't seat you don't have the benefit of a pressure cap"

I will back with news

Thanks

Hary

[Old Henry]

Harylufa, If you fill the water as full as you can get it and then put the cap on, the cap will not keep the water from expanding and pushing past the cap. That is normal. If you leave 1-2 inches of space above the water and put the cap on no water should come out of the tube. If it does than you may have a problem.

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Harylufa, If you fill the water as full as you can get it and then put the cap on, the cap will not keep the water from expanding and pushing past the cap. That is normal. If you leave 1-2 inches of space above the water and put the cap on no water should come out of the tube. If it does than you may have a problem.

OLd Henry!

You are right, water is all the time at 2 inch of space above water and seem to be happy. I reviewed it and it is as you say.

Well, I checked the radiator and I attach some pics how it is.

Thanks and keep posting

Hary

[Old Henry]

Harylufa, It looks like your water is totally clear and that you do not have any antifreeze or other anticorrosion and pump lubrication in it. If that is so you should add one or the other or both to prevent corrosion and lubricate your pumps. It is not good to run just plain water.

[Harylufa]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Harylufa, It looks like your water is totally clear and that you do not have any antifreeze or other anticorrosion and pump lubrication in it. If that is so you should add one or the other or both to prevent corrosion and lubricate your pumps. It is not good to run just plain water.

Old Henry!

Is the water level ok? I put soluble oil (two tea spoon), it is used in grinding machines to cool the tools of the machines and avoid corrosion recomended by radiator maker.

What do you think?

Thanks

Hary

[cmbrucew]

Harylufa


There are two kinds of soluble oil. One for machine tool cooling, the other is radiator soluble oil. Not the same.

Bruce

Works good
Lasts long time

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Harylufa

Old Henry!

Is the water level ok? I put soluble oil (two tea spoon), it is used in grinding machines to cool the tools of the machines and avoid corrosion recomended by radiator maker.

What do you think?

Thanks

Hary

Water level looks OK. One way to get it to max is go ahead and fill it to the top then drive it and it will push out however much is too much and stop when it's at the maximum level it can hold.

I don't know what soluble oil is. Sounds like you may have put the wrong kind in according to cmbrucew who said the kind that is put in radiators is not the same as the kind used in cooling machine tools which you put in.

When I'm running without antifreeze I use Hy-per Lube Super Coolant that not only has a water wetter but also prevents corrosion and lubricates water pump seals.



Details here: http://www.hyperlube.com/Super-Coolant-c8.html
Available from Amazon here: http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&nod...l_3c4y2do068_e

Note how plain water cools better than water with antifreeze in it and even better with Super Coolant in it.

[Harylufa]

Hi all!
The soluble oil was given to me by radiator maker, so I think it is for radiator. He insist to put soluble oil to avoid corrosion.

I will investigate antifreeze.

Thanks for posting..

Hary

[Old Henry]

There are two different kinds of antifreeze. Here is a great article that tells about the two and the advantages and disadvantages of each. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/et...col-d_904.html I use propylene glycol because it's safer for animals and has better heat transfer.