Another question from the uninformed---me

[gypsycandle]

I'll try to sum it up briefly; my car didn't run when i got (after being promised it did) when I took the head off and it had water in 3&4 cylinders..duh.. no wonder it wouldn't start.. I got a new head , new head gasket, replace #1 exhaust valve(it had a burnt crack in it). Put it back together and still no start. I 've timed it 20 times (at least), I take the head off again and see that the when the timing pin falls into the dimple, the #1 piston is already 1 1/4" on the way down.
When I took the valve cover off I may have picked up the oil pump gear to look at it. it's Been 6 weeks since i did that so i don't remember if i moved it.
Question: is there such a thing as putting that gear back in so that it would throw off the timing?? If so how it that corrected?(with just turning the rotor until it lines up with #1 in the dist. again.

AND, it has no compression in #1&2 cyl.

Thanks guys...you knowledge is astounding!
Michael...
P.S. this is an engine that has sat for 50 years in a barn, but engine spins readily.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by gypsycandle

I'll try to sum it up briefly; my car didn't run when i got (after being promised it did) when I took the head off and it had water in 3&4 cylinders..duh.. no wonder it wouldn't start.. I got a new head , new head gasket, replace #1 exhaust valve(it had a burnt crack in it). Put it back together and still no start. I 've timed it 20 times (at least), I take the head off again and see that the when the timing pin falls into the dimple, the #1 piston is already 1 1/4" on the way down.
When I took the valve cover off I may have picked up the oil pump gear to look at it. it's Been 6 weeks since i did that so i don't remember if i moved it.
Question: is there such a thing as putting that gear back in so that it would throw off the timing?? If so how it that corrected?(with just turning the rotor until it lines up with #1 in the dist. again.

AND, it has no compression in #1&2 cyl.

Thanks guys...you knowledge is astounding!
Michael...
P.S. this is an engine that has sat for 50 years in a barn, but engine spins readily.

If that engine could only talk. I wonder if someone rebuilt the engine (does it look like it was rebuilt and not run?) and didn't properly align the gear on the crank with the gear on the cam? The oil pump gear cannot be put in wrong, the timing is taken care of when you move the rotor regardless of the orientation of the oil pump gear. The were some reproduction timing gears about 50 years ago that had the dimple on the gear in the wrong place but I think it was just one tooth and that wouldn't explain how far off you are.

Now for the no compression in 1&2. Are the valves opening and closing? I think you should be able to see by removing the side plate.

Charlie Stephens

[gypsycandle]

Thanks Charlie for the reply, no it doesn't look rebuilt, my friend suggested that I lap all the valves first and then try the compression, if there is none then take out the pistons and do new rings... ahh if only i had a garage..hahaha

[CWPASADENA]

I agree with Charlie.

You first have to be sure the timing gear marks are aligned. Then with the pin in the dimple, #1 piston should be at Top Dead Center. I would verify and correct as necessary before I would go any further.

Then as Charlie said, look at the valves on #1 & #2 cylinders to be sure they completely close. Valve lash, valves not fully seating etc.

With these two things verified and corrected, then you should have compression on all cylinders and with the ignition timing set correctly, the engine should run.

I would not pull the pistons quite yet. See how it runs first than decide if it is necessary to pull the pistons.

My opinion,

Chris W.

[Mike V. Florida]

Where in Florida are you?

[H. L. Chauvin]

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Wonderful advice above.

And, FWIW:

Sounds like you would benefit a lot from obtaining a friendly visit from a local, mechanical Model A Club member, if one in your area; and whether yes or no, reading a Les Andrews Model A Mechanics Handbook, Volume I .... would never hurt ..... even if you already have mechanic experience in other areas.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by gypsycandle

I'll try to sum it up briefly; my car didn't run when i got (after being promised it did) What's new about a seller misrepresenting the condition of a part! when I took the head off and it had water in 3&4 cylinders..duh.. no wonder it wouldn't start.. I got a new head , new head gasket, replace #1 exhaust valve(it had a burnt crack in it). Put it back together and still no start. I 've timed it 20 times (at least), I take the head off again and see that the when the timing pin falls into the dimple, the #1 piston is already 1 1/4" on the way down. This is strictly mechanical, the cam and crank are aligned with the gears. the crank gear has a key and the cam gear has two pin offset to prevent it from being mounted wrong. There are a set of dimples on the gears that need to be lined up. If these are lined up there is no way the #1 piston can be in any other position then TDC if you have the correct timing cover.
When I took the valve cover off I may have picked up the oil pump gear to look at it. it's Been 6 weeks since i did that so i don't remember if i moved it.
Question: is there such a thing as putting that gear back in so that it would throw off the timing?? That would effect the timing.If so how it that corrected?(with just turning the rotor until it lines up with #1 in the dist. again. Just re-time it.

AND, it has no compression in #1&2 cyl.

Thanks guys...you knowledge is astounding!
Michael...
P.S. this is an engine that has sat for 50 years in a barn, but engine spins readily.

....

[Art Newland]

Maybe his cam gear (fiber type) is coming apart from the center?

[Charlie Stephens]

How about a picture of your distributer to be sure it is Model A and a picture of the boss on the timing cover where the timing pin screws in? Hold off on lapping the valves and pulling the pistons for a ring job as my guess is that there is another problem. My guess would be rust keeping the valves open. Pull off the side plate and see if the lifters are functioning when you turn the engine over with a hand crank. Pull off the timing cover and be sure the timing gear is not coming apart as Art said and also that the dimples are aligned on the crank gear and the timing gear. Where did you go for instructions on how to time it? I assume it is in the Service Bulletins or you can use http://www.abarnyard.com/workshop/timing.htm. Post the name of the person that sold you the engine to protect the rest of us.

Charlie Stephens

[gypsycandle]

Hi Mike V. I'm in central FL. between Ocala and Leesburg just out side the Villages.

[gypsycandle]

Hi H.L. yes i am familiar with Les. i have both his books here and have watched his videos.
There is a local club here and i will contact someone. I just finished putting together a 1930 PU for a member of the club, and this is the 4th A i have built but I never had any engine problems before, so i'm completely in the dark there.

[H. L. Chauvin]

1. From your above report in Reply 11, no doubt you will succeed.

2. Fifty years of sitting in a barn depends a lot on the type of barn; but, in thinking positively, at least your engine is about the same age as all of the other engines mentioned on this Forum. LOL.

3. It is very possible that you have original valve tappets which are moved up and down by the cam; hence, if you installed a new, non-adjusted no.1 valve, it is very possible that this valve is not closing tightly to seal the no. 1 combustion chamber.

4. When one grinds valve seats, metal is removed from the valve seat area; hence the required valve stem gap near the tappet is reduced to where metal has to be "very carefully" removed from the end of the valve stem until one obtains a gap of 0.011" at the ends of intake valves, and 0.013" for exhaust valves.

5. Providing such small miniscule valve stem gaps with the original tappets is never mentioned often, but is not a big deal. After doing about (2) valves, it is about as easy as rolling (8) cigarettes with a pack of tobacco and a book of cigarette paper. Let me know if you would like to hear how this was easily done often years ago with simple non-electric hand tools ....... in the 1930's rural electrification had not happened everywhere yet ..... kerosene lamps, chamber pots, and wood stoves were considered Uptown ...... but the Model T's and Model A's kept rolling with vintage rural mechanical ingenuity.

[gypsycandle]

here are some pics i just took..i'm pretty sure it all Model A parts.
5frontengine.jpg

5topengine.jpg

5sideengine.jpg

3112016water in cylinders.jpg

[gypsycandle]

Hi Charlie, pics have been posted... yes i have seen that timing article by Marco several time..I think i have it memorized..lol I just finished puttiing that front timing cover bacj on..not looking forward to taking it off again...
By the way where or what is the alignment mark on the crank gear?
I have two extra blocks in the spare parts i recieved but they are way beyond repair. one has both front gears on it and i don't see any mark on the crank gear, maybe i don't know what i'm looking for?

[gypsycandle]

If anyone would like to email me or phone me it's ok.
[email protected] or 352-483-6901.

I'll be out in the tent for a few more hours...lmao

[Patrick L.]

The timing cover has just been off and reinstalled ?
Both timing gears are marked and need to be aligned. The crank gear with have a dimple just to the right side of the key. The cam gear will have a corresponding dimple between the teeth which needs to be installed aligned with the dimple in the crank gear. This may be hard to see because the slinger gets in the way.
When aligned correctly, when the timing pin is inserted in its hole it will drop into the cam gear dimple at TDC [ top dead center] [ when the piston is at the top of the bore].

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by gypsycandle

Hi Charlie, pics have been posted... yes i have seen that timing article by Marco several time..I think i have it memorized..lol I just finished puttiing that front timing cover bacj on..not looking forward to taking it off again...
By the way where or what is the alignment mark on the crank gear?
I have two extra blocks in the spare parts i recieved but they are way beyond repair. one has both front gears on it and i don't see any mark on the crank gear, maybe i don't know what i'm looking for?

Here is the mark on the crank gear. It is hard/impossible to see behind the oil slinger. The distributer and timing cover both look correct eliminating them as being part of the problem.

Charlie Stephens

[gypsycandle]

Hi Patrick...ok thank you , i'll look again.. Yes i took the cover off to make the fiber gear dimple more pronounced so i could find it with the pin. It wasn't even dropping in before.

[gypsycandle]

ok charles....thank you..lmao no wonder i din't see it... OMG.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by gypsycandle

If anyone would like to email me or phone me it's ok.
[email protected] or 352-483-6901.

I'll be out in the tent for a few more hours...lmao

Just a suggestion. When you start getting emails back and forth instead of posting on the forum a couple of things happen, none of them good. If someone makes a mistake, and we all do, no one will see it and correct it. People assume you already have the correct answer and won't respond. You miss out on other solutions that may be generated from people reading other peoples ideas. Happy birthday wishes and thanks are good topics for direct emails, technical questions and responses are probably not.

Charlie Stephens

[gypsycandle]

good point charlie....thanks for that advice, i didn't think of that.

[1930artdeco]

Just to muddy the waters a bit, my first thought was a 'B' timing cover was installed. I don't know how to tell them apart (someone here will chime in). Another tip is that if you have to take the timing cover off again, you may want to drill the dimple a little larger. That makes it easier for the pin to drop in-or use a small cross point screw driver.

Mike

[Tom F OHIO]

Originally Posted by 1930artdeco

Just to muddy the waters a bit, my first thought was a 'B' timing cover was installed. I don't know how to tell them apart (someone here will chime in). Another tip is that if you have to take the timing cover off again, you may want to drill the dimple a little larger. That makes it easier for the pin to drop in-or use a small cross point screw driver.

Mike

Mike, he made the dimple a little deeper. You must of accidentally read over post #18.

[1930artdeco]

Yep missed that Tom.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by 1930artdeco

Just to muddy the waters a bit, my first thought was a 'B' timing cover was installed. I don't know how to tell them apart (someone here will chime in). Another tip is that if you have to take the timing cover off again, you may want to drill the dimple a little larger. That makes it easier for the pin to drop in-or use a small cross point screw driver.

Mike

The model A intake was curved on the top. The Model B had a flat top. There were two Model B intakes. The first ones had the vacuum intake in the front and the later ones had it at the rear. I prefer the look of the later ones on a Model A.

Charlie Stephens

[Tom Wesenberg]

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Before you remove the timing cover, do a check.
Do all the valves move up and down OK?
If so, then do a piston/valve overlap check. Hand crank the piston to TDC on the exhaust stoke and the exhaust valve should be just about closed and the intake should be just a little open? Is this the way it actually is now?

BTW, another example of someone thinking they don't need antifreeze because it almost never freezes. So what is the coolant is all rusty. Sermon over.

Here's a picture of the timing marks. The right side of the keyway lines up to the cam gear mark. With the oil slinger in place, you probably can't see the dot in the gear, but you can see the keyway.

[gypsycandle]

Hi Tom, Thanks for the input, yes all the valves move up and down and seem to be seated well...(well almost well) I had intended lapping them all to remove any rust that may be on the seat. The car sat for 50 years in a barn in florida and yes there was much rust in the water and much water in the oil(looked like a delicious milkshake) lol.
I did check the gear cover and it's a A cover, here is a link for you to look at to explain the differences in the covers. http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/timingcovers.htm
I don't know if that worked right but you can copy it and paste it..
I'll do the overlap test tomorrow...as I stated before I'm not well versed on the engine but this week i've learned a lot and read a lot.
Look at post #13 for the pics that I posted, the last is of the water that was in the cylinders #2,#3,#4.
After i replaced the head and new gasket...the weird thing was that it started and ran for 15 seconds...(shut it off because there was no oil or water in it).
Since then have only gotten it to sputter never actually run.
I haven't had a chance to put antifreeze in it yet but yes i know it needs it (even though I live in FL.) It does freeze here too.
I have to remove the cover again because now i'm curious about the marks and to see if the gear broke?
HaHA...my simple project has turned into a MEGA project, I know i could go the easy route and get a short block but I'd like to solve the problem if I can.
Thanks for your interest,
Michael...

[Tom Wesenberg]

If the valve overlap is correct, then you shouldn't have to remove the front cover again. I have the head off my engine, and if I remember, tomorrow I'll take a picture of the piston at TDC on the exhaust stroke, and show the valve overlap.

I've run engines for 15 seconds without coolant, but would never start an engine with no oil.

[30ccpickup]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

1. From your above report in Reply 11, no doubt you will succeed.

2. Fifty years of sitting in a barn depends a lot on the type of barn; but, in thinking positively, at least your engine is about the same age as all of the other engines mentioned on this Forum. LOL.

3. It is very possible that you have original valve tappets which are moved up and down by the cam; hence, if you installed a new, non-adjusted no.1 valve, it is very possible that this valve is not closing tightly to seal the no. 1 combustion chamber.

4. When one grinds valve seats, metal is removed from the valve seat area; hence the required valve stem gap near the tappet is reduced to where metal has to be "very carefully" removed from the end of the valve stem until one obtains a gap of 0.011" at the ends of intake valves, and 0.013" for exhaust valves.

5. Providing such small miniscule valve stem gaps with the original tappets is never mentioned often, but is not a big deal. After doing about (2) valves, it is about as easy as rolling (8) cigarettes with a pack of tobacco and a book of cigarette paper. Let me know if you would like to hear how this was easily done often years ago with simple non-electric hand tools ....... in the 1930's rural electrification had not happened everywhere yet ..... kerosene lamps, chamber pots, and wood stoves were considered Uptown ...... but the Model T's and Model A's kept rolling with vintage rural mechanical ingenuity.

This would be great! Since he did say OK, can you start it as a new thread. I have one I need to do.

[gypsycandle]

Hi 30ccpickup, Yes please let let know how they did that back when.
Michael...

[gypsycandle]

Hi Tom, Well it's all apart again so I may as well take the cover off and see what i'm dealing with as far as the fiber gear goes. Maybe it was only 10 seconds worth of running but I had the pistons soaked in marvel mystery oil(i hope that helped prevent any damage).
I really was testing the new head to see if there was any more water seepage anywhere into the pan. I didn't see any.
thank you,
Michael...

[katy]

I really was testing the new head to see if there was any more water seepage anywhere into the pan. I didn't see any.

You said you ran it w/out water or oil, so you're not going to get any "water seepage anywhere into the pan" without water in it.

The MMO might have saved the pistons, rings and cylinder walls, but I'd be more concerned about the bearings. That's a huge NO NO running w/out oil.

[gypsycandle]

Hi Katy, you are right , I was out of logical sequence there. I had done so many things to the engine that I confused myself upon recalling events. Thanks for keeping it real.
Gotta love this forum...lol

[gypsycandle]

30ccpickup...sry thought it was H.L. that said that"Let me know if you would like to hear how this was easily done often years ago with simple non-electric hand tools ......
Yes let me know how..
Michael...

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by gypsycandle

30ccpickup...sry thought it was H.L. that said that"Let me know if you would like to hear how this was easily done often years ago with simple non-electric hand tools ......
Yes let me know how..
Michael...

Before electric drills, I had to use my coal fired steam drill.

[katy]

Something like this?

[CarlG]

Boy, does that bring back memories. The first picture in post #36. As a lad of 10 or 11, I was using one of those that came off of it's mount and landed on the back of my hand while still spinning. I carried that reminder scar for many years