Vanadium Steel

[2935ford]

I see many sites that state Ford used vanadium steel in the T but I do not find any stating Ford used it for the Model A.
Can anyone confirm this?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by 2935ford

I see many sites that state Ford used vanadium steel in the T but I do not find any stating Ford used it for the Model A.
Can anyone confirm this?

This is a great question that I had never really thought about. While Ford used the Vanadium added to key chassis components and touted it as being stronger in his advertisements, I have heard that the amounts that he added did only minute strengthening of the steel. I have also been told it was more about a 'rust prevent-er' at the levels he used. By the late 1920s, he had the Raven or 'bluing' process figured out on certain chassis fasteners, and he also had the enamel paint dipping process figured out, so maybe it was deemed an unnecessary??

With the Model-A, the front axle beam is spec-ed as hot rolled and a Type AA forging. Components like the Differential gears, Axles shafts, Differential Spiders, etc. are spec-ed as Hot Rolled Steel and either a Type A or AAA forging. Nothing mentioned on the prints that I glanced at calling for Vanadium. Maybe someone else who has some prints of other chassis components can chime in.

[2935ford]

Thanks Brent.

[Jack Shaft]

This was taken from the henry ford trade school workbook..ford was highly refined as a steel maker,he made over 46 different designs.besides the forge and foundry they had a bank of electric ovens at the Rouge for alloying steel.From the blast furnace to the soaking pits to the blooming mill to the ovens Ford used a tremendous amount of energy in custom steel production..

[Pete]

Originally Posted by 2935ford

I see many sites that state Ford used vanadium steel in the T but I do not find any stating Ford used it for the Model A.
Can anyone confirm this?

In the mid 50’s a young guy that was building a sprint car started hanging out at our shop. Friday nights after work was drinking time around there along with talking race strategy for the Saturday night midget races. (The shop owned a midget)
After hanging out a couple Friday nights this guy started bringing in a jug of the best moonshine anyone had ever tasted, but I digress.
He worked at US Steel Corp. in the rolling mill. He also had a friend that worked in their testing lab.
We had wondered many times what type of steel Ford had used for various parts of his cars so eventually we had this kid take various pieces of Ford steel and have his buddy do a quantitative analysis on them. While not exact SAE formulations most of the stuff followed their formulas fairly close. The drive shafts and axles were close to SAE 6000 series steel. This is a chrome vanadium steel with about .1 % vanadium. These steels have extremely good fatigue life and quite often used for torsion bars and solid driveshafts.
Spindles, perch bolts and spring hangers were close to SAE 4100 series.
Keep in mind, these tests were run on just one each sample part.

[2935ford]

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Thanks Pete.
Were these parts Model A?
I'm trying to find out if Ford did in fact use vanadium steel in the making of the Model A?

It appears vanadium is a rather isolated item found in just a few places.

The story I heard was one of Henry's engineers or possibly Henry himself picked up a piece of steel on a race track after a race which included French cars. He had his metal men figure out what its composition was finding out it contained vanadium. Now knowing this he began using this metal in the Model T front axles and other items in the car.

He had T axles twisted like licorice and distributed to his dealers to show potential customers the strength of his cars.

The use of this steel seems to end at the Model T run as no more mention I can find of this steel in Model A's or beyond.

[Jack Shaft]

The chart is hard to read easier if you download it and blow it up..but Ford used vanadium to alloy his type A steel.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Jack Shaft

This was taken from the henry ford trade school workbook..ford was highly refined as a steel maker,he made over 46 different designs.besides the forge and foundry they had a bank of electric ovens at the Rouge for alloying steel.From the blast furnace to the soaking pits to the blooming mill to the ovens Ford used a tremendous amount of energy in custom steel production..

John, what is the date of that workbook?

Ford was really big in their advertising of Vanadium in the Model-T era, however I am not seeing any mention during Model-A era advertising. Maybe you are correct in that he was an accomplished steel maker and did not want to purchase the Vanadium blend of metal when he could blend it himself.

[Jack Shaft]

Its the Henry Ford Trade school 'Shop Theory' workbook from 1934..a basic primer for aspiring apprentice tool makers.

Ford made alot of alloys and was on the cutting edge of steel production techniques yet very little historical information exists..we know who Farkas, Galamb,Sorenson and Bricker were,engineers and production men,first rate..but what about his steel engineers?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Jack Shaft

Its the Henry Ford Trade school 'Shop Theory' workbook from 1934..a basic primer for aspiring apprentice tool makers.

Ford made alot of alloys and was on the cutting edge of steel production techniques yet very little historical information exists..we know who Farkas, Galamb,Sorenson and Bricker were,engineers and production men,first rate..but what about his steel engineers?

Well sure enough! There it is on Page 204 in my book. I guess I need to move that one from the bookshelf to the bathroom for some quality study time!


.

[Jack Shaft]

What amazes me is how much they put on the lads..you had to be smart and driven to stay in that program,no 'dumbed down everyone gets a trophy' school..imagine they had them spend time in the foundry as an incentive to succeed..

[rotorwrench]

Look up historic information on C. Harold Wills. Ford tasked him with steel development just prior to the model T era so that they would have a more reliable drive train than the earlier models. The chrome vanadium steel that he developed was used for a lot of different parts and C H Wills patented his processes. From Charles Sorensen's book, he mentioned that he and Henry Ford tired of Will's constant pushing for the use of his patented steel formulas. This eventually ended with Wills and Ford parting ways. Wills went on to found his own auto manufacturing company Wills Sainte Claire but it didn't even survive till the depression. Ford may have used his formula further but patents only last 19-years.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by 2935ford

Thanks Pete.
Were these parts Model A?
I'm trying to find out if Ford did in fact use vanadium steel in the making of the Model A?

It appears vanadium is a rather isolated item found in just a few places.

The story I heard was one of Henry's engineers or possibly Henry himself picked up a piece of steel on a race track after a race which included French cars. He had his metal men figure out what its composition was finding out it contained vanadium. Now knowing this he began using this metal in the Model T front axles and other items in the car.

He had T axles twisted like licorice and distributed to his dealers to show potential customers the strength of his cars.

The use of this steel seems to end at the Model T run as no more mention I can find of this steel in Model A's or beyond.

The parts we had tested were taken off of a model A.

Something I forgot to mention, 6100 series steels are not recommended to be welded.

[2935ford]

Thanks Pete

[mhsprecher]

"The story I heard was one of Henry's engineers or possibly Henry himself picked up a piece of steel on a race track after a race which included French cars. He had his metal men figure out what its composition was finding out it contained vanadium. Now knowing this he began using this metal in the Model T front axles and other items in the car."

This was in a recent issue of the Model T Times, too. I think it was Henry himself who picked up the steel. As mentioned above, Harold Wills, influenced this, as well.

This brings me to another point, which doesn't answer the question posed, but how Henry was able to attract an amazing array of talent to work with him. Success does attract attention and on his third try, Ford Motor Company was a success from the very beginning. Henry had a lot of faults, but in the early days, he had some of the best people in the industry working for him in engineering, finance and the like. A remarkable story.

[Jack Shaft]

Ford didn't make steel at Highland Park,production began when the Rouge came on line in the twenties

Top men in engineering, finance and production worked full careers at and with Mr Ford.Book writers have a problem with success,they need drama to sell books

[rotorwrench]

Ford started building at the Rouge River property when they set up the new Fordson tractor line of manufacturing in 1917. It also had a purpose of making the remaining Ford Motor Company stock holders know that Ford could start another company any time it wanted and used it for a leveraged buy out.

Ford purchased the John R Keim company in Buffalo, NY in 1911 and eventually moved all the equipment and some of the people like Bill Knudsen to Dearborn as part of the Rouge complex. The Rouge was set up to make a lot of the hard parts that went into the Ford vehicles but stuff like the interior trim was made over at the Highland Park plant. Highland Park did have a complete foundry and machine shop in it's time but it was smaller than the Rouge by a good bit even though it was not small by any means. Ford eventually moved tractor production over to Highland Park. They needed the room at the Rouge to keep expanding. They built a lot of stuff at the Rouge complex. The Ford patrol boats were made there during WWI and the Ford Trimotor airplanes were also build on the airport grounds & hangars there.