Evolution of installing cylinder heads

[Ol' Ron]

The evolution of installing heads on a flathead is more complex, than a woman's mind. In the "Beginning". We slaped them on torqued them to 60/70 lbs and went racing. When we started using racing cam shafts and milled heads, we found that pistons hit the heads ar reva and the heads leaked, torque then to 80. Learning can be expensive. stripped blocks and Heli coils later?? It took awhile to realize that over torquing the heads was a bad idea, one shop used a torque plate for honing the SBC, so whynot the flatheads. Most of us used Jahnns pistons with .005/6" clearance ( Made from Lead???) Now we used .075/.100 piston clearance. But torquing the heads was still amistory. Back to 50 llbs. Problem solved.. So much for the learning curve, I have no idea who came up with all this?With the low RPM's of the street engines and the light Forged and Egge 3 ring pistons, we can tighten up the piston to head clearance.
THis doesn't address the long term installation of aluminum heads on a cast iron block. When I first started rebuilding Flatheads I began repairing used heads to reduce the price of the builds. I checked the fire ring of the heads, milled them flat. Bead blasted them and filled the corrosion areas with Devcon F and later JB weld. We had an aluminum spray sealant in the beginning, but later versions were just aluminum paint. Since then I use copper coat. However I don't think this will help the long term installation of these heads, but a new method maybe around the corner. Paint the heads with a coat of Latex paint. Install gasket with what ever sealant you want, and bolt the heads down with cadmium coated bolts (with hardened washers) . Torque to 45 lba for 3 or more heat cycles. Until there is no movement. You might wonder if this is enough?? I did. after the hydro engine made a run at over 60mph, a recheck of the head bolts gave little movement. The Evolution continues, tune in next year.
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[little howard]

Ron, A question about re-torqueing; do you break the bolt loose, and re-torque to what ever pds you want,, or, do you just re-torque to what ever pds ?
Thanks,

[Kube]

Originally Posted by little howard

Ron, A question about re-torqueing; do you break the bolt loose, and re-torque to what ever pds you want,, or, do you just re-torque to what ever pds ?
Thanks,

You do NOT break the bolt loose. that would be counter productive
of re-torqueing.

[flatford8]

Originally Posted by Kube

You do NOT break the bolt loose. that would be counter productive
of re-torqueing.

This is something I’ve wondered about....Thanks!....Mark

[HP Hunter]

You need to back em off first one at a time and then retorque em. Not just try to retorque em.

Harry

[Ol' Ron]

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You do nOT brake them Loose. The compression of the clamping force of the new installation. Changes due to the heat of the block and heads in an uneven manner. BY re- torquing the bolt/stud to 45 ft/lbs you even out the total clamping force of the fasteners.You will notice that some bolts move more than others as the gasket and materials come together. Now, with all this said. Back when a torque wrench wasn't available, we just snugged them up, every so often

[alchemy]

What are your thoughts on bolts vs. studs?

I've had problems with coolant weeping past the studs, so I use a lot of Stinky Brown Permatex on studs (basically gluing them into position). If bolts were used, the sealant would be disturbed on every retorque, right? More weeping.

[34PKUP]

Originally Posted by alchemy

What are your thoughts on bolts vs. studs?

I've had problems with coolant weeping past the studs, so I use a lot of Stinky Brown Permatex on studs (basically gluing them into position). If bolts were used, the sealant would be disturbed on every retorque, right? More weeping.

Never had a problem using non hardening Permatex.
It never glued bolts/studs in position and never leaked after re-tightening.

[Bored&Stroked]

I use a Teflon based sealer on the coarse threads of the studs or bolts . . . from ARP.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

You do nOT brake them Loose. The compression of the clamping force of the new installation. Changes due to the heat of the block and heads in an uneven manner. BY re- torquing the bolt/stud to 45 ft/lbs you even out the total clamping force of the fasteners.You will notice that some bolts move more than others as the gasket and materials come together. Now, with all this said. Back when a torque wrench wasn't available, we just snugged them up, every so often

Thanks Ron. I was taught as you advise.
And I suppose common sense would dictate that if one were to loosen them, he'd have to start the entire process afresh. And, perhaps ruin any chances of making a permanent and quality seal.

Folks, do NOT loosen the nuts (bolts) prior to (re)torqueing.

[Ol' Ron]

To seal the threads I use some stuff I had for steam pips. My dad was a plumber and he had this stuff so I used it. Never seems to harden either. Probably the same stuff they make today

[frnkeore]

I haven't dealt with this yet but, when I put my 21 stud engine back together, I had planned on using Teflon tape to seal the stud threads.

Are any reasons why I shouldn't use it?

[leon bee]

Teflon tape is mostly kind of a lubricant so that new tapered pipe threads go together nice.

[Russ/40]

Originally Posted by Kube

Thanks Ron. I was taught as you advise.
And I suppose common sense would dictate that if one were to loosen them, he'd have to start the entire process afresh. And, perhaps ruin any chances of making a permanent and quality seal.

Folks, do NOT loosen the nuts (bolts) prior to (re)torqueing.

I can give no empirical data to back up my feelings in the matter, but my gut has always told me; if they move, their loose, if they don't, leave them alone.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by frnkeore

I haven't dealt with this yet but, when I put my 21 stud engine back together, I had planned on using Teflon tape to seal the stud threads.

Are any reasons why I shouldn't use it?

I prefer to use this stuff . . . has worked well on a lot of my high performance applications as it is a thick liquid and will fill the threads quite well:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-9904

[frnkeore]

PTFE is Teflon but that stuff is kinda spendy @ $10 for 1.7 oz. A plumbing supply house, may have it, I'll have to look.

The Teflon tape, used to be spendy but, now is very cheap. It takes a minute to rap it in the threads but, you can put on, what ever thickness you want.

It is a great sealer and the only way you can assure a leak free, pipe thread joint, on air lines.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by frnkeore

PTFE is Teflon but that stuff is kinda spendy @ $10 for 1.7 oz.

Okay Frank - going to bust your stones here In the grand scheme of flathead things, whether the stud sealer costs $10 or $.10 . . . really doesn't matter.

What matters is how well the studs/bolts are sealed in the wet deck!

Just giving you Hell a bit . . . as I've learned that I have attempted to save money on the right things in my life . . . and spent WAY too much on the wrong things! LOL

B&S

[tubman]

A lot of us older guys are on a very tight budget. $9.00 saved here and there can make a big difference in how we approach our projects. I know that I am getting by only because I have squirreled away a lot of old parts that I could not even think of purchasing these days. You bet I will be concerned about some big time outfit charging $10 for 1.7 oz. of sealer, especially when if you look hard enough, you can find the same thing a lot cheaper someplace else.

I wish I was rich; I'm not.

[Bored&Stroked]

Hey guys - not trying to be flippant with your money (or mine) . . . the only point was that we tend to worry about saving money on the wrong things. Not only in life, but in our flathead work. I know, a grand statement . . . but one I've had to come to terms with myself over the years. And - I'm not young - I hate to admit it, but I'm an "older guy".

Now I know I'm preaching here, but how many times have we seen folks (ourselves included) go 95% of the way through a difficult and time consuming job - spending a lot of money along the way - and then decide to scrimp/save at the very end? I've done this many times! It is almost like I was upset about the 95% of the money I'd already spent (probably 2X what I thought), only to NOT spend the last 5% wisely. I'm not trying to spend anybody's money here -- nor claim to have riches and lack of empathy. The only point is that we tend to worry about the costs that are the least significant at times . . . versus the costs/ramifications if we had not.

I used to worry about costs of things like gasket sealers, assembly lube, oils, etc . . . when if I'd really thought about it, these are the last places I should be worried about spending a few percent more. I'd already spent the big money and spent the big time - so I try to buy the best products I can - and they cost so very little in the grand scheme of these dang car builds.

Also, one hard lesson in life and business that I've learned is that I tend to not value my time enough. If I spend $20 more to save hours of time . . . if that worth it? Maybe - or maybe not - but at my 'young' age, seems that my time is the most valuable thing I don't have enough of.

Okay, enough out of me . . .
B&S

[frnkeore]

Dale,
The main thing about selecting things, is that you use common sense. For instance, if Teflon tape will seal a joint, air tight, then it will seal a water joint, especially if it's under high heat and pressure. I don't like using it but, I have to, if I want my air systems to not leak.

Second, I haven't looked for it yet but, if it's a Teflon past, it's probably used for sealing pipe fitting, maybe even designed for that purpose and if so, can be purchased at a plumbing supply house for $3 or less.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Okay Frank - going to bust your stones here In the grand scheme of flathead things, whether the stud sealer costs $10 or $.10 . . . really doesn't matter.

What matters is how well the studs/bolts are sealed in the wet deck!

Just giving you Hell a bit . . . as I've learned that I have attempted to save money on the right things in my life . . . and spent WAY too much on the wrong things! LOL

B&S

I am not wealthy by any means, but what is $10 when you spend $10K on a motor? Its a fraction of the overall cost to do it right.

[tubman]

Tim, not be be argumentative, but you and I live in two different worlds. I would (or could) never spend $10,000 building a flathead. The last one I did (2 years ago), was around $2100 with new pistons. a reground crank, and a MAX-1, finished off with vintage used speed equipment. It seems to me that lately, a lot of ancillary stuff we need (such as the aforementioned PTFE sealer), have become "boutique items" sold at extreme prices by some of the specialty dealers. For some of us, scrounging and networking allow us to do a quality job on a shoestring. A good example is the sealer mentioned. I was talking to a friend who is a union pipe fitter a few years ago, and the conversation came around to the aforementioned sealer. He said, "Do you need some?". When I answered in the affirmative, he gave me a peanut butter jar full. He also threw in about 6 rolls of Teflon tape, just to be sure.

A $10,000 flathead is a luxury item, pure and simple. If you are chasing performance, there are a myriad of ways to get a lot more for a lot less. A good performing, good looking engine can be put together for a lot less. Don't get me wrong; I really like to see these top end builds, but a lot of us just can't afford them.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by tubman

Tim, not be be argumentative, but you and I live in two different worlds. I would (or could) never spend $10,000 building a flathead. The last one I did (2 years ago), was around $2100 with new pistons. a reground crank, and a MAX-1, finished off with vintage used speed equipment. It seems to me that lately, a lot of ancillary stuff we need (such as the aforementioned PTFE sealer), have become "boutique items" sold at extreme prices by some of the specialty dealers. For some of us, scrounging and networking allow us to do a quality job on a shoestring. A good example is the sealer mentioned. I was talking to a friend who is a union pipe fitter a few years ago, and the conversation came around to the aforementioned sealer. He said, "Do you need some?". When I answered in the affirmative, he gave me a peanut butter jar full. He also threw in about 6 rolls of Teflon tape, just to be sure.

A $10,000 flathead is a luxury item, pure and simple. If you are chasing performance, there are a myriad of ways to get a lot more for a lot less. A good performing, good looking engine can be put together for a lot less. Don't get me wrong; I really like to see these top end builds, but a lot of us just can't afford them.

Tubman, the problem is I can't afford it either. LOL!

All kidding aside, the point is one thing I learned from all this is building a flat head is a labor of love, blood, sweat and tears. The amount of effort is no where near the amount of performance you'll get, but there is no other choice of motor for me.

Somewhere down the line, I'd love to get an aluminum 427 SBC and put it in a '35 Roadster, but that is down the road a spell. Point being, that 427 small block comes in around $10K and puts out 525 hp out of the box. My $10K flat head will be lucky to get 200 hp, but I'll be smiling on every mile.

If there is a product that cost 10X's as much (Ex: ARP sealer @ $10 vs. Teflon tape @ $1.00) but is known to do even a fractionally better job, I'm picking the $10 product.

Between removing studs, humping blocks to machine shops, tearing down stuck motors, etc., if I never have to do it again, I'll pay $10 all day long.

It is also coming from the stand point that I am finding my time is valuable and in short supply.

[tubman]

Mine isn't!

[frnkeore]

A quick search on Ebay, turned this up:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...+sealing+paste

4 oz of the stuff, for $13, that's 2 3/8 times as much for probably the same price (or less) if you consider shipping. Then, if you buy the 16 oz bottle, you get it for $3.18, per 1.69 oz quantity and no shipping cost. But, I'll stick with the tape.

[tubman]

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You mean "tape" don't you Frank? Dropping one "e" in this context amounts to a serious error.

[frnkeore]

LOL yes, it's suppose to be tape I'll fix it.

[Bored&Stroked]

Good conversation gang - enjoyed the heck out of all of it! Thanks!

[A bones]

I believe the best thing is to consider options when making a move.

To not stick to some hard fast rule conjured up in the past.

I spent twelve years doing my own thing. I constantly created rules to maximize my returns of money and time. Time being of the essence. One of the important things I learned was not every intention would pay off every time.

Today I don't regret letting go of the dollars if its simpler to reach a goal.

That said I sometimes think I'm destined to do everything twice over. HAH

Thanks for listening

[Ronnieroadster]

For me the best teacher was the trial and error method. Way back when there was no sites like the Barn to post question on how to do stuff those of us working in their back yards just had to figure out how to do things on our own since few of us knew anyone doing what we were doing. Figuring it out was part of the fun and now at times some of us post on how we do it while theres a few ways to do the same thing the important part for those asking and learning is to pay attention to those who actually do this and continue to do this stuff. For me sealing the stud or bolt threads is easy using a good quality pipe thread sealer or the sealer available from ARP I find each have worked perfectly not only on my street engines but also under the extreme environment of racing. Your results will be similar.
Ronnieroadster