Electrical verification 32 Ford

[rockfla]

Okay…I’ve been chasing a dead short in the 32. First I found the generator was wire incorrectly and shorted the generator and pegged my ammeter. Sent them both for repair. Put them both back in after repair, installed a brand new cut out and still have a dead short. I can wire yellow to the ammeter, check at the battery terminal, NO short. Attach the yellow/blue wire to the opposite side of the ammeter, Short - popping and arching at the battery terminal. Remove yellow/blue, NO arching. So I removed the in wire at the cutout, no arching. Logic is telling me the generator is my dead short? NO??

[Bob C]

The generator should not be in the circuit if the cutout points are open.

[rockfla]

According to the wire diagram I have yellow (hot from battery) Goes into the ammeter, yellow/blue goes out from ammeter to switch and also Into the cutout on generator, correct?

SO, whenever yellow/blue is “removed” from either, ammeter gauge OR from in (side) of the cutout, short at the battery cable stops!!!

[Brian]

Have you reversed the wiring to/from the cutout?...in other words, is your cutout mounted backwards?

[Bob C]

This is from Van Pelt's site.

[DavidG]

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May I assume at the cutout on the generator that your yellow wire with the black (not blue originally) is attached to the front of the cutout?

Your first paragraph in #3 is correct as to the wires at the ammeter.

If your cutout is the original '32-34 variety with slotted, not fully enclosed attachment feet, it cannot be installed backwards unless the output stud on the generator is not located as original.

[rockfla]

Yes David, yellow/black, far be it from me to read the legend of colors to the right!! SO yellow/black wire from back of ammeter to switch&generator cutout!! I have the “original” type cutout!!

[DavidG]

All the wiring in your two photos is as it should be.

[rockfla]

Yes BobC that is the diagram I have, the YELLOW/BLACK wire from ammeter to switch/generator, THAT wire when attached at the ammeter is causing a “Dead short”! I can remove it from the ammeter OR remove the YELLOW/BLACK wire from the front of the cutout and it DOES NOT short??

[Mart]

Does the generator need polarising? When I did my first start on my 32 I had a big draw on the ammeter. I polarised the generator and it was ok after that and charged normally. I can't explain what happened but that is what did happen. It's on video.
Mart.

[JSeery]

Sounds like the cutout may be bad (new does not mean good). Check the terminal on the cutout to the ground on the generator, there shouldn't be any continuity with the engine not running. If there is, that would be your short.

[jimTN]

If your bat pos terminal is the ground as it should be and the wire to your cut out is hot and it shorts when touched to the cut out terminal then the cut out is closed, points stuck or what ever. Check the gen side of the cutout for a short to the case or bad insulator.

[rockfla]

Okay
No continuity on the cut out

No I have not polarized my generator Since I got it back from Michael

I have not checked the wire TO the cutout for an arch BUT the yellow/black wire will arch when I connect it to the ammeter!!

[Terry,OH]

How many wires on the ammeter?
One YB to the ignition switch and then to the coil.
Second YB goes directly to the cutout
Third YB goes to the lighting fuse.
All three wires on one side of the ammeter (rear view RH side) The second side of the ammeter (rear view LH)
One Y wire to the foot starter switch, for battery -

[rockfla]

Terry
I have the one YELLOW wire (HOT) to the left side (from the drivers view) of the ammeter. The YELLOW/BLACK is one eyelet wired to the right (from drivers view) and it splits shortly after the eyelet, one to the back of the on off switch, one goes into a bundle of wires wrapped in black cloth sleeve to the firewall SO assuming that is the wire to the cutout......NO light wire, unless it splits off further down the line??


As a side note: I was talking with Michael at Third Gen, he is the one who rebuilt my generator and he told me he had a problem with several generators and that mine "may" be one he did that is causing the "short"???? I wanted to get a consensus on that before I pulled it and sent it back to him!!!! SO "Could" it be my problem??

[rockfla]

Originally Posted by jimTN

If your bat pos terminal is the ground as it should be and the wire to your cut out is hot and it shorts when touched to the cut out terminal then the cut out is closed, points stuck or what ever. Check the gen side of the cutout for a short to the case or bad insulator.

Jim
Isn't there only one insulator, the one on the "HOT" wire to the cutout between the wire fork end and the housing of the cutout??? OR Where else would an insulator be???

[rotorwrench]

With three wires connecting the Gen side of the ammeter and a single wire connecting the Bat side of the meter, there could be a direct short in any of those wires or a cross short. Check all wires to ground and to each other with the charging circuit completely isolated from components. Use an Ohm meter to check. Check components to the best of your ability. If you suspect the generator or cut out and you don't have the means to test. Find some help with that somewhere.

There is no mystery to electrical systems. The circuit wiring is either intact or it is shorted somewhere. Make sure the cut out is still open but it sounds like that has been done with good results. Polarize the 3-brush generator as required.

It's not uncommon for wiring to be damaged if some mistake is made during connection. It just depends on how the system was wired the wrong way initially. We all have are good days and bad ones too. Anything that checks OK under test usually is OK. Test everything in the circuit including the battery and it's connections. Even an amp meter can be shorted if the insulators are bad.

The 1932 models shared the same basic system as the model A in the fact that there were no fuses or circuit breakers in the design. There could be a problem in the lighting circuits or horn since all that stuff is interconnected to the charging circuit. Test it separately for shorts if it is found to be part of the problem.

[koates]

If you say the short goes away when the battery wire is removed from the cut out then the short is in the cut out somewhere. What type of cut out do you have on there ? An original Ford one or a replacement modern diode type or a Fun Projects voltage regulator? It does not look like an original Ford type to me. Disconnect the battery wire to see if the short goes away. Those little curved insulators on the cut out terminals have to be very accurately fitted against the cut out cover so that the terminal screws dont short out on the cover. Also the white nylon terminal insulator on the generator terminal is not the correct type. I see the terminal screws are not the correct type. These have to be the correct length and if too long will touch something they are not supposed to touch inside the cut out. I suggest that you remove the cut out and have a close inspection inside it if you can. Michael would have test ran your generator after rebuilding it so polarizing it will not be necessary. Was the cut out on the generator when Michael tested it or did you fit it on later ? You know one has to be very particular when fitting up electrical components on any type of vehicle otherwise problems are the result. Get back to me. Regards, Kevin.

[DavidG]

Robert,

The photo below is from page 6-30 of the book (originally from one of the '32 Service Bulletins) which may be helpful or not depending on the vintage of your Ford Werke's electrical system. The photo depicts the ongoing arrangement of the wires' various attachments within the instrument panel after a fuse block for the lighting system was added and the ignition resistor was moved from being attached to the back of the ignition switch on the steering column support bracket.

With respect, Terry, your wiring connection line up may or may not be relevant for Robert's purposes depending the vintage of his German electrical layout.

Also with respect, rotorwrench, all but very early '32 V8s had fuse blocks as did late '32 four-cylinder electrical systems.

[koates]

I reread your post and you say you fitted a new cut out. If it is a diode type and not a points type then it has to match the polarity of the car which should be POS GROUND. If it is the wrong polarity cut out you will get a short through it. Regards, Kevin.

[rockfla]

Originally Posted by koates

I reread your post and you say you fitted a new cut out. If it is a diode type and not a points type then it has to match the polarity of the car which should be POS GROUND. If it is the wrong polarity cut out you will get a short through it. Regards, Kevin.

I "HAD" a fun projects diode type cutout on the car originally BUT when it came back to us, generator wired incorrectly(basically wired without the cutout in the system) and it pegged my ammeter and fried the generator, I eliminated it from the system as well AND have not sent it back to fun projects to have it tested and repaired as needed. I ordered a new, standard type cutout, had Mike at Third Gen rebuild my generator and had Williamson Instruments repair my ammeter SO at this juncture I feel confident that the ammeter is NOT the issue!!!!!!

[DavidG]

Robert,


As I noted earlier, everything in those two photos of your generator are by the book. With all due respect to koates, the cutout appears to be correct for a '32 Ford, the screws on the cutout are correct for a '32 Ford and he is evidently unaware that the insulators for those screws came in two thicknesses, one thicker one for the front and a thin one for the back screw; see photo below from the '32 Service Bulletins (assuming that's what you have there, white or otherwise) . In fairness, his comment about the cutout screws being possibly too long is relevant. But if they came from either Michael or Roy Nacewicz (RIP), they are likely not too long.

[rockfla]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Robert,


As I noted earlier, everything in those two photos of your generator are by the book. With all due respect to koates, the cutout appears to be correct for a '32 Ford, the screws on the cutout are correct for a '32 Ford and he is evidently unaware that the , insulators for those screws came in two thicknesses, one thicker one for the front and a thin one for the back screw; see photo below from the '32 Service Bulletins (assuming that's what you have there, white or otherwise) . In fairness, his comment about the cutout screws being possibly too long is relevant. But if they came from either Michael or Roy Nacewicz (RIP), they are likely not too long.

David, I will check the insulator on the back side of the cutout this evening, I'm most positive it is there as I did not remove the L-Bracket from it when I installed it (Just looked and it can be seen in my previous posted photo). I do know the "thicker" insulator is on the Inlet side between the wire end and the housing!!!! I will still double check it this evening.

[koates]

David, when I stated that the cut out was not the correct type I meant that it was not an original Ford made unit, it is a reproduction and as such its quality is very suspect. Many of these reproductions have a tiny diode inside them which is only rated to carry 5 amps current. Some much older reproductions have a large round alternator type diode inside which is rated at 20 amps and will handle the Ford generator maximum output of approx 15 amps, but depending how the third brush is set. I am well aware the terminal insulators are of different thicknesses to each other but the one on the generator side does not look correct to me because it does not appear to be black. But I guess the photos are not really very clear. The best quality cut out is an original Ford made one which has a points type relay inside it. Diodes do loose a tiny amount of voltage across them. Regards, Kevin.

[rockfla]

@Koates
This car has not run since all the repaired items talked about in this post have been installed!!! Not even one attempt at trying to start it!! So they are as ordered, as repaired as recalibrated