Tech Q ?

[hardtimes]

I'm taking apart a model b diamond engine.
Have run into a 'strange' situation, that I haven't figured an answer for...yet.
Thot I'd ask here...early, in case someone has a helpful tip as to their thots.

This Texas guy sold a diamond B....as 'possibly' rebuilt.
Hey, it looked good with NEW paint ....that was puzzleing, as a guy would have to strip the b down to do such a good even paint job ?
Anyway, he did NOT provide any oil pressure testing orifice....that made me suspect of him. Without oil pressure assurance and with oil leak at front main...hm what's up ?

Ok, I pulled engine, took down pan and found a full THREE inches of sludge, to the extent...that it was covering oil pump half way up !! WTFudge ??

Pig in a pretty painted poke ??

So, took of pretty winfield 6;1 alum head. NO ridge ring..in any cylinder ??

Pistons...standard..hm ?

I did not take a compression test, but ran engine briefly till verified front main oil leak. NO smoking. Too rich fuel with excessive fuel not being burned..black plugs.

I'm stuck as to why ANYONE would bother to strip and engine to apply proper paint block/ pan, etc....and not remove pan for cursory inspection ??

Why no oil pressure and/or gauge ...to indicate 'remove pan and inspect' ?
Pump couldn't be putting out pressure...as it was !

And, how do you have 3 inches of sludge in engine with standard/no smoke pistons and no ridge rings ?

Still have to look further at bearings, etc.. Valves look ok/black on too rich fuel.

Kinda stumped on why so much sludge and engine still in condition it is in ?

Thots ... anyone ?

[J Franklin]

Maybe you were the first person to ever drop the pan.

[jb-ob]

Just maybe the seller never looked at the engine either but because it looked fresh, bought it to flip.

Your choice now either to flip or salvage what you have.

Hey it's the car biz... story of a wealthy collector with a mega dollar restoration on a Ferrari, first time at the track finds he has only first & fifth gear. "We'll be back....'

You'll be back......

[hardtimes]

Im leaning towards your idea relative to this B.
Ive opened a LOT engines... and found a lot of sludge... at times !
Never with near this much , and never without ridge rings , standard bore and otherwise clean as this B !
What causes sludge ? We all know that answer. That leads me to believe that this B MAY have started life as a truck or donkey engine-i.e., many starts/stops, no time to warm up properly, no hard work, lack of regular PMs = sludge !
If it isn't cracked... I may have a diamond (B) in the ruff/jewel !!

[Jack Shaft]

Sludge is from years of non detergent oil. Instead of being held in suspension and flushed out during a change like detergent oil,non detergent oil allows debris to settle out in the pan.

Cracking with a late B happens,I have one.Since it was repaired correctly and has fresh babbit Ill build it over the two uncracked late B's I have. B engines as Jim says,don't need an oil pressure gauge..stock.Instead of gravity fed main bearings and cam bearings like the A,Ford supplied positive oil flow to the bearings with the B..not pressure...constant flow.

[redmodelt]

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I have done and in car engine paint after doing some crack repairs to the water jacket for a customer. You would be surprised how well enamel paint sticks to old hard grease! This one was cleaner when I got done then that, but have run across more then a few cases when got to cleaning found the grease was just painted over.

[Jim Brierley]

You got a raw deal, but on a stock engine there was never an oil pressure ga., or need for one.

[johnneilson]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

You got a raw deal, but on a stock engine there was never an oil pressure ga., or need for one.

Nor did they ever build pressure as stock.............J

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

You got a raw deal, but on a stock engine there was never an oil pressure ga., or need for one.

Jim B,
I learned all this... good, from your #1 book !
I do not usually mess with ‘stock’ oil pump. I use high pressure pump..ergo the pressure gage useage.

However, this time I’m thinking using stock pump.
I have a question for you, regarding stock pump
Configuration.
Can I just flip over the gear cover, to get a new unused surface ?
There is slight wear on the plate where it touched the gear faces.
Thanks Jim

[Jack Shaft]

The 'money' shot in any Ford flathead four cylinder is under the oil pan.

[johnneilson]

No, this is the money shot........

[hardtimes]

Hey John,
Nah, not THE money shot... nice, but only 4 mains !!

[Jack Shaft]

Originally Posted by johnneilson

No, this is the money shot........

Big time..guess I'll take my toys and go home ...btw..I didn't know you were a crossdresser..you got matching stockings to go with that girdle??

We used to lap oil pump plates. .light scoring is unavoidable.

the only salt my junk will see is if its spilled in the drivethru..

[old31]

Originally Posted by johnneilson

No, this is the money shot........

What engine is this?

[Jack Shaft]

How much did you pay for this engine? I only ask because either somebody lied..or somebody didn't do due diligence..I can understand neglecting diligence based on price,get a decent block cheap enough all the talk about what was done doesnt matter.

I've bought plenty of used engines,if I can't see the lower end I don't pay..imagine there should have been some kind of documentation or pictures showing the rebuild..

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Jack Shaft

How much did you pay for this engine? I only ask because either somebody lied..or somebody didn't do due diligence..I can understand neglecting diligence based on price,get a decent block cheap enough all the talk about what was done doesnt matter.

I've bought plenty of used engines,if I can't see the lower end I don't pay..imagine there should have been some kind of documentation or pictures showing the rebuild..

Hey Jack,
Bought unseen, except for pictures.
I usually do as you say you do, hands/eyes on.
Have you bought from a Barn member ? Do you trust established Barners ? I do !
I also hav dealt with members here for decades ...without incident like this !
Sorry to say, I bought this from a HAMB member !!
Like said, I’ve dealt with HAMB guys for decades, with never a problem !
When I notified him of situation, and of my requested / suggested solution...He would not answer me back, respond... other than to say he was “shocked”... his only response.
I paid good amount of $ .... based on his word as a HAMB member. He had advertised it on this ( Ryan’s) domain. That , to me, gave creds to this guy !
Everyone is wrong at times...
I hope he feels good, having taken an old guy/fellow HAMB ! May he live forever.

[johnneilson]

Originally Posted by old31

What engine is this?

It is a model B with girdle
Pushed a coupe with flathead to 121 mph

J

[GeneBob]

Years ago Quaker State had a problem with a batch of oil where it would turn to jelly if it got too cold. I wonder if your engine had something react with the oil in the pan and make a LOT of sludge all at once while having almost no wear on the engine.
BTW, John Neilson, that is the LOTTA money shot. Is that a Donavan block?

[nkaminar]

That is called a Krylon overhaul.



Sludge comes from the crap settling out, as Jack Shaft said, with non detergent oil. An engine that runs cold will have more sludge and it means that the oil was not changed very frequently or not at all. I remember engines full of sludge. Use detergent oil in your Model A but only after making sure that the engine is not full of sludge.

[updraught]

It's probably driven an emergency generator and been started every now and then.