Axial Play in Water Pump Shaft

[Ian Curtis]

Hi All,

This previous weekend I went in a 130 mile round trip journey, which is far & away the most I've driven my truck. Made it to the destination & back with no issues, but when I parked the truck there was a serious drip out of the packing nut. It's always dripped a little, so I squeezed in some grease and tightened it a bit and walked away, but a half hour later there was a sizeable puddle on the floor with maybe a drip per second coming from the block. I eventually discovered that if I pushed "in" (towards the block) the shaft moved between a 1/16 and an 1/8 of an inch & the leak stopped.

Is this a sign of something more serious, or do I need to just tighten the packing nut until it stops dripping or replace the packing?

[Drive Shaft Dave]

The end play should be held to .006, There is a collar that the vendors sell that fits behind the fan ,held by a set screw. The boss inside the head that is used to control the end play is worn down. There are other ways to fix this but the collar is probably the simplest.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

You probably need to repack the pump, and maybe replace the shaft, to stop the leaking, and install the collar to prevent movement.

[billybronco1]

I need to understand this pump end play more. My pump does not leak for short rides and not sure about long rides because I have not done that yet. I have almost a half inch end play if I slide the shaft back and forth. This does not seem right and I need to know what to do.

Also the car has a six volt alternator and I was wondering how much play should be in the fan belt - thanks

[Ed Saniewski]

The collar will keep the shaft from sliding back and fourth,so it will keep the shaft at the pulled out toward the radiator. Ian, if you have to push in on the shaft to stop the leak, try tightening up the packing just until the leak stops. Do not over tighten it or you will score the shaft. If it still leaks then do as Chuck said and replace the shaft. Some one prior probably over tightened it and scored the shaft.

[billybronco1]

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Where does one buy this collar do you have a part number?

[Bill Cilker]

Do not use the collar if you are running a plastic fan with the steel hub. There is not enough room between the water pump housing and the steel hub when it is seated properly on the shaft.

[Ed Saniewski]

Here is a link to Brattons

WATER PUMP SHAFT COLLAR
For Year(s): 28-31

Before installing the fan on the shaft, slide the teflon washer followed by the steel collar up to the front of the pump housing. Use the set screw to secure it in place. This will eliminate all the shaft endplay, which can disturb the packing causing a leak. Collar will not be seen when the fan is installed. Set includes teflon washer steel collar and set screw. This collar will not work on the repro 6 blade fan.

Part #12500

[Ed Saniewski]

Let's try this
http://www.brattons.com/uploads/imag...arge/12500.jpg

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Ed Saniewski

The collar will keep the shaft from sliding back and fourth,so it will keep the shaft at the pulled out toward the radiator. Ian, if you have to push in on the shaft to stop the leak, try tightening up the packing just until the leak stops. Do not over tighten it or you will score the shaft. If it still leaks then do as Chuck said and replace the shaft. Some one prior probably over tightened it and scored the shaft.

Ed, is that your Piet in your profile picture? Cool shot either way!

On further inspection, I think the problem was me. I believe I thought I was tightening the packing nut and I was actually loosening it and had backed it off 1/2 a turn. Properly tightened and not leaking now...

[Russell in Tulsa]

Yes, Righty Tighty, Lefty Loosey.

[billybronco1]

Okay I plan on buying this collar looks like an easy fix for shaft end play - thanks. My car has a six volt alternator running an A8620 belt. The alternator is adjusted out all the way and I still have quite a bit of slop in the belt maybe 2". First how tight should this belt be and should I get the next size shorter belt if there is such a thing or a longer adjustment arm on the alternator?

[stewwolfe]

Alternators don't like loose belts. You should go with a shorter belt.

[billybronco1]

Originally Posted by stewwolfe

Alternators don't like loose belts. You should go with a shorter belt.

I do realize that on today's conventional cars but I was concerned on over tightening and the effect of premature wear on the water pump shaft bearing.

Has anyone used a smaller belt there is more to it then just the length - What would the part number be for a 1" shorter A8620 if there was such a thing?

[CarlG]

I use a cogged belt such as BX40. Seems to grip the smaller alternator pulley with less tension than the solid belt does.

[billybronco1]

Originally Posted by CarlG

I use a cogged belt such as BX40. Seems to grip the smaller alternator pulley with less tension than the solid belt does.

I assume a BX40 has a total length of 40" is that correct? Is that the actual part number?

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by billybronco1

I assume a BX40 has a total length of 40" is that correct? Is that the actual part number?

Goodyear Engineered Products Torque-Flex V-Belt, BX40, Cogged, 0.66" Top Width, 0.41" Height, 40" Approx. Inside Length (NAPA has their own part #, but just ask for BX40)

[billybronco1]

Originally Posted by CarlG

Goodyear Engineered Products Torque-Flex V-Belt, BX40, Cogged, 0.66" Top Width, 0.41" Height, 40" Approx. Inside Length (NAPA has their own part #, but just ask for BX40)

Okay great I found the web site I need something a little shorter and they have a BX39 that is 1" shorter, should do the trick.

[billybronco1]

Can the fan blade be removed with out removing the radiator and then install the collar it looks pretty tight in there?

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by billybronco1

Can the fan blade be removed with out removing the radiator and then install the collar it looks pretty tight in there?

Generally not due to the extended length of the pump shaft (which is nearly to the backside of the radiator.)

Although one might try to play a game of undoing (somehow) the upper radiator hose connection and prying the radiator forwards to gain additional clearance. You may end up with the radiator split in pieces though. An outright removal is probably best.

Of course if the radiator is removed - then one is free to install an "ultimate" pump which, which it's cartridge/forward bearing, needs no attention to free play (it's built in.) Or even do an extended shaft/cut down to fit pump rebuild.

In a lot of ways I consider the plastic donut a "temporary fix" - and one I might not normally choose to do on that account. But given a choice between driving and not driving - it would be an easy change of mind for me to install. And I would be encouraged by others success with this option.

Joe K

[Tom Wesenberg]

Be sure the thrust washer is in place and the freeplay kept to a few thousandths, or this can happen.

[billybronco1]

Okay I picked up a B40 fan belt at Napa and it works perfect just the right tightness and still a little adjustment on the alternator arm - thanks

I do see the water pump shaft going in and out as the motor idles so next is the shaft collar, new hoses and clamps and fresh anti freeze.

Anything else while I have the hood off and the radiator out?

[mshmodela]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

Ed, is that your Piet in your profile picture? Cool shot either way!

On further inspection, I think the problem was me. I believe I thought I was tightening the packing nut and I was actually loosening it and had backed it off 1/2 a turn. Properly tightened and not leaking now...

[billybronco1]

Originally Posted by billybronco1

I need to understand this pump end play more. My pump does not leak for short rides and not sure about long rides because I have not done that yet. I have almost a half inch end play if I slide the shaft back and forth. This does not seem right and I need to know what to do.

Also the car has a six volt alternator and I was wondering how much play should be in the fan belt - thanks

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I pulled it apart to day to find the metal retainer seal on the water pump shaft had popped out that is why I had so much end play. I pounded it back in but I will also install the collar as well. I thought I saw the recommended spacing some place here but can't find it - was it .006 of end play in the shaft once collar is installed?

Funny thing someone mounted a collar on the other side that seem to do nothing.

[BlueSunoco]

Originally Posted by 1930 coupe

Until recently end play was fixed by brazing the end of the shaft to make it longer then machining it for the proper fit. The vendors are now sell a extra long shaft that can be machined for a proper fit. The collar works but is not as good as a longer shaft that has been properly fit to the head. If you do not have the proper tools you might have to use the collar.

And, I've seen guys drill and tap the end of the shaft and put a brass screw in to take up the slack. Not sure how long the fix is but brass machine screws are not that costly...............

[billybronco1]

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Okay now that my car is all back together and the collar is in the water pump it seems the water pump make lots of noise and is ready to come apart. I think because there was so much end play maybe 1/2" it chewed up or wore out the bearings and maybe more. Its not loose now (.006+/-)and does not leak. I think I'm going to just buy a new pump assembly. I took off the fan belt and ran it and she is quiet.

What do you think? Should I get the new style leak-less pump? Should I take it off inspect and maybe rebuilt?

[Tom Wesenberg]

Use a stethoscope and make sure the noise is coming from the water pump. Can you feel any scraping while turning the fan by hand?
The last generator I did a week ago had a front bearing that felt very smooth and rolled nicely, but when I tested the generator it squealed like a stuck hog.

[billybronco1]

Yes, if I spin the blade with the belt off I hear a clicking and ticking sound. This sound is very pronounced with fan belt on and engine running.

[billybronco1]

Okay got my new fan blade today and I also ordered a new leakless packing nut because the rubber in my old one looked a little beat up. Question is - the old packing nut is steel and smaller on the OD and the rubber inside goes the whole length of the nut. The new one is I guess zinc looks like aluminum to me and the rubber seal is just in the top part of the nut, is this the way the new ones are? How tight do you crank down on the packing nut?

[DHZIEMAN]

Originally Posted by Drive Shaft Dave

The end play should be held to .006, There is a collar that the vendors sell that fits behind the fan ,held by a set screw. The boss inside the head that is used to control the end play is worn down. There are other ways to fix this but the collar is probably the simplest.

Had the same water pump shaft movement (over 1/4 inch)
I found a company that makes a split 3/8 collar! The advantage is not having to take a bunch of things apart to put on the collar on. I also added a nylon washer so that the split collar installed did not rub against metal and adjusted the tolerance with a gauge! All is now well!

[johnbuckley]

Originally Posted by DHZIEMAN

Had the same water pump shaft movement (over 1/4 inch)
I found a company that makes a split 3/8 collar! The advantage is not having to take a bunch of things apart to put on the collar on. I also added a nylon washer so that the split collar installed did not rub against metal and adjusted the tolerance with a gauge! All is now well!

Can you share with us the contact details please ( ....saves using a worm drive small hose clip!)

[john charlton]

If your car is not show standard and just a happy driver there is a very quick simple fix for end float problems . My 30 CCPU suffered a heavy leak which was caused by very excessive fore and aft shaft shunting ,I would guess about 1/2" . I fitted a small stainless hose clip around the shaft allowing about 1/16" end float . Choose a clip which has a smooth section where the clamping screw section is to avoid wear where the clip contacts the packing nut . This contact area in practise is lubricated by a little waterpump grease which exudes from the shaft .This cured my leak, it does have a slight drip now and again but now I dont have to top up my rad after every trip . This fix has been on my truck for over 1000 miles and there is no discernable wear on the packing nut . The setup does not look unsightly as the clip is small I will try to get my son to post a pic . This saves a whole bunch of labour pulling apart etc etc and gets the same result .(and cheaper!!!)

John in same place, weather was cancelled today.

[3.6rs]

I know tis is an old thread ;
I welded up the end of the shaft. Don't know if this is a correct repair, but it works for me.

[100IH]

3.6 Welding the end of the shaft is relying on principles that the original pump used when first designed. I have had luck with making a Delrin wear tip for the end of the shaft and so far works very well. I like the original W/Pump and wonder why so many feel the need to go to the super pumps that can't be fixed easily, Kind of like which electronic ignition is the best.

[Purdy Swoft]

If you don't want to take the pump apart a shaft collar could be installed behind the fan . The fan would hide the collar and the collar is cheap . Longer shafts with pinned impeller is available , thats what I usually do .

[IndyA]

I'd like to "join" this conversation ...... I have a rebuilt standard pump and a newer metal (maybe aluminum?) 2 blade fan. There's about and 3/4" of lateral play (front to back) when the engine is running. When the engine is not running, I cannot make the shaft move at all.There's no leaking water. The engine keeps cool on longer drives and rarely gets over 135 degrees .....a newer radiator helps this, I'm sure.

The Question: Do I need to worry about this ???? Many thanks in advance for your thoughts... IndyA..

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by IndyA

I'd like to "join" this conversation ...... I have a rebuilt standard pump and a newer metal (maybe aluminum?) 2 blade fan. There's about and 3/4" of lateral play (front to back) when the engine is running. When the engine is not running, I cannot make the shaft move at all.There's no leaking water. The engine keeps cool on longer drives and rarely gets over 135 degrees .....a newer radiator helps this, I'm sure.

The Question: Do I need to worry about this ???? Many thanks in advance for your thoughts... IndyA..

Yes, you need to worry because this can happen when the thrust washer isn't in it's correct position in the pockets of the impellor. When the shaft moves more than about 1/8" then the thrust washer comes out of place.

[asapguy]

Ian if you want a spare to rebuild let me know I have approx. 40 used water pumps & I can bring one to the bd. mtg. tonight at CCR. The price is right, FREE.

[DHZIEMAN]

Originally Posted by johnbuckley

Can you share with us the contact details please ( ....saves using a worm drive small hose clip!)

Sorry this response took so long! I got on ebay, and searched on "Steel 3/8 collar" A bunch popped up off the search and I ordered several. Ya gotta do a little hunting to find a split sleeve! It really works great!

[DHZIEMAN]

Also Grainger Got to https://www.grainger.com/product/CLI...-Collar-29NX80

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by IndyA

I'd like to "join" this conversation ...... I have a rebuilt standard pump and a newer metal (maybe aluminum?) 2 blade fan. There's about and 3/4" of lateral play (front to back) when the engine is running. When the engine is not running, I cannot make the shaft move at all.There's no leaking water. The engine keeps cool on longer drives and rarely gets over 135 degrees .....a newer radiator helps this, I'm sure.

The Question: Do I need to worry about this ???? Many thanks in advance for your thoughts... IndyA..

With 3/4" of play there is something very wrong, I'm surprised the fan
hasn't hit the radiator.


Bob