Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-23-2020, 11:49 PM   #1
ironfly28
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 27
Default Did I fry my starter relay?

So like a dummy I left an after market electric fuel pump in the ON mode for a few days... Came out to start my '38 deluxe and the only sound I got was crickets. And lots of dark. Dead, nothing no lights...nada. So I unhooked the batteries and charged them up to a good 5.86 volts. The previous owner wired two six volts in series with a cut off switch on the deep cycle Marine battery and an optima at the back of the tray... anyway, I go to start it...and I have juice but when I ground the starter I get a noise like heavy radio static and no turny. Did I somehow fry the starter relay...can I arc it back to life? Should I beat the starter with a hammer...or do I walk down to CW Moss and start buying stuff?
ironfly28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2020, 10:57 AM   #2
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 15,316
Default Re: Did I fry my starter relay?

5.86v is a dead battery! The battery has to at least be above 6.0V. It is at around 25% charge. It is possible that the battery is toast after being connected to a load for that period of time. I would take the battery to a shop that can load test it. Most auto parts shops can.

Leaving a load on the battery shouldn't have anything to do with the starter solenoid, it is only activated when the starter button or switch is connected. You would have to hold the starter button for a very extended period of time to damage the solenoid.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg maxresdefault.jpg (50.5 KB, 25 views)

Last edited by JSeery; 08-24-2020 at 11:05 AM.
JSeery is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 08-24-2020, 11:22 AM   #3
RKS.PA
Senior Member
 
RKS.PA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Marana, AZ
Posts: 890
Default Re: Did I fry my starter relay?

Wouldn't hurt to re-check your battery connections and ground just to rule out a loose connection. (Idiot Boy over here had to learn this the hard way....thanks to brother-in-law, unnecessary starter replacement avoided!
RKS.PA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2020, 02:29 PM   #4
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 15,316
Default Re: Did I fry my starter relay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKS.PA View Post
Wouldn't hurt to re-check your battery connections and ground just to rule out a loose connection. (Idiot Boy over here had to learn this the hard way....thanks to brother-in-law, unnecessary starter replacement avoided!
Even with good connections that battery is not going to do much at that charge level!
JSeery is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2020, 10:51 PM   #5
ironfly28
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 27
Default Re: Did I fry my starter relay?

Thanks for this chart! I didn't realize the margins were so tight. I guess I'm used to Turbine engines where you can have 30% under voltage and still get a start. On Morning inspection I discovered that what I thought was the charger kicking off at 5.86 was actually an I advertsnt trip of the switch. My 6 year son was the first to alert me to under voltage when he honked the horn and it sounded like a sad goose. To which he said "Dad, I think our girl is sick". Battery one is at 6.3 now and two is coming up nicely at 5.93. As mentioned I did take the opportunity to check connections and I do think the starter relay is a little loose but I'll wait until we have ignition to start fiddling with it. Thanks for the help!
ironfly28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2020, 11:25 PM   #6
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 15,316
Default Re: Did I fry my starter relay?

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
How is a starter relay loose?
JSeery is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2020, 12:21 AM   #7
ironfly28
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 27
Default Re: Did I fry my starter relay?

Apologies... semantics. I mean to say the ground cable has a little play. But it's been starting fine that way for the 4 months I've owned it and for an untold amount of time before that so I'm not going to address it until it's running again.
ironfly28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2020, 02:50 AM   #8
F-ONE
Member
 
F-ONE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Heart of Dixie ( Alabama)
Posts: 55
Default Re: Did I fry my starter relay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironfly28 View Post
The previous owner wired two six volts in series with a cut off switch on the deep cycle Marine battery and an optima at the back of the tray.
Why?

Seriously, I'm curious for the reason.
F-ONE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2020, 03:06 AM   #9
F-ONE
Member
 
F-ONE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Heart of Dixie ( Alabama)
Posts: 55
Default Re: Did I fry my starter relay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironfly28 View Post
Apologies... semantics. I mean to say the ground cable has a little play. But it's been starting fine that way for the 4 months I've owned it and for an untold amount of time before that so I'm not going to address it until it's running again.
You may have too, just to get it running.

It's not the looseness per say, it's the conductivity. Just because it's been that way for a long time does not mean it's right and not causing a problem.

A 6 volt system is very sensitive to grounds and good clean connections. By far this is the main issue with 6 volt.

The cables and wire need to be large enough.
The connections need to be clean.
The connections need to be tight.
F-ONE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2020, 03:14 AM   #10
koates
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Melbourne Australia.
Posts: 1,645
Default Re: Did I fry my starter relay?

So is your 1938 Ford a 6 volt car as original or a 12 volt car, as you have said the two 6 volt batteries are connected in series which will give 12 volts ? Or are the two 6 volt batteries in parallel ? Where is the cutout switch fitted? Different types of batteries should not be connected together either in series or parallel. Your description is not very clear. Regards, Kevin.
koates is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2020, 10:30 AM   #11
ironfly28
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 27
Default Re: Did I fry my starter relay?

It is a six volt car... positive ground. I'm not sure why he put in two batteries but I presume it's to assist with the modern light bulbs the car is running. I also assumed that maybe the second battery was for backup. I just don't know. For clarity the negatives are wired together the positives terminate at the same point on the body...
ironfly28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2020, 11:11 AM   #12
itslow
Senior Member
 
itslow's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central Iowa
Posts: 530
Default Re: Did I fry my starter relay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironfly28 View Post
It is a six volt car... positive ground. I'm not sure why he put in two batteries but I presume it's to assist with the modern light bulbs the car is running. I also assumed that maybe the second battery was for backup. I just don't know. For clarity the negatives are wired together the positives terminate at the same point on the body...
In this case, the batteries are wired in parallel and not in series as your original post seems to convey.
__________________
Mike

Wanted:
- '32-34 Open Cab Pickup (RPU) parts and documents/articles/info
- ARDUN parts
itslow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2020, 12:03 PM   #13
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 15,316
Default Re: Did I fry my starter relay?

They are wired in parallel, but this still doesn't address the dissimilar batteries issue.
JSeery is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2020, 01:06 PM   #14
ironfly28
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 27
Default Re: Did I fry my starter relay?

They are in parallel, thanks. If you look at them without taking into account positive ground they're in series...see what I mean? Anyway, what issues would dissimilar batteries create? If they're rated the same and grounded equally what trouble could they make?
ironfly28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2020, 01:25 PM   #15
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 15,316
Default Re: Did I fry my starter relay?

If the batteries are not the same they conflict with each other. They charge and discharge at different rates.
JSeery is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2020, 01:28 PM   #16
Bob C
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: So Cal
Posts: 7,123
Default Re: Did I fry my starter relay?

Negative or positive ground has nothing to do with series or parallel. Series
is when the negative on one battery is connected to the positive of another
battery.
Bob C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2020, 02:16 PM   #17
ironfly28
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 27
Default Re: Did I fry my starter relay?

I never could get parallel and series right. Two batteries one point for electricity to flow is what I'm dealing with...the rates for charging are way different as exemplified by the time it took to charge the optima versus the conventional battery.
ironfly28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2020, 02:43 PM   #18
F-ONE
Member
 
F-ONE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Heart of Dixie ( Alabama)
Posts: 55
Default Re: Did I fry my starter relay?

I think I understand the logic but it's flawed. A Deep Cycle and a conventional battery wired in series is not a good idea. Both are different animals. Deep Cycles are designed to be discharged completely, thus being able to be recharged from dead, again and again. Deep cycles are designed for gradual draws at a long duration. Deep cycles have half the cranking amps but can last longer on a charge.

Conventional batteries have twice the cranking amps and are designed for heavy draws at a shorter duration. Conventional batteries are not designed to be totally discharged.

Conventional vs Deep Cycle, as said they are two different animals.

I suspect the car has a weak or non functioning charging system and has been "fixed" to run off batteries alone. That's the reason for the deep cycle in series.
It could possibly last a long time on a charge. With that said, it's not right.

My advice, rip that Rube Goldberg battery system out and repair the car correctly.

PS...

What can happen when batteries are wired up in an unconventional manner?

I'll summarize in one word.

BOOM!

I have seen this first hand. BOOM. This was a fire engine with batteries wired in series hooked to a shoreline charger. It worked for a long time and then one day...boom.

Last edited by F-ONE; 08-25-2020 at 02:51 PM.
F-ONE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2020, 02:51 PM   #19
tubman
Senior Member
 
tubman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys
Posts: 6,803
Default Re: Did I fry my starter relay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by F-ONE View Post
.........

My advice, rip that Rube Goldberg battery system out and repair the car correctly.
This has always been one of my guiding principles.
tubman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2020, 04:08 PM   #20
ironfly28
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 27
Default Re: Did I fry my starter relay?

Well, I'll have to get into it then. It is Odd that s car would need two batteries.
ironfly28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:26 PM.