Servicing Steel Drums

[Henry's Lady's Man]

I've tried DIY but need some advice from the experts... Brakes have been redone, I bought 4 cast iron drums and studs from Randy Gross. Before I get the hubs swaged out of old and into new, I want to give my steel drums a chance with the restored system. (I have next to NO experience driving my '30 A, since when I bought it, and had it delivered, the brake rods were rusted shut, not to mention the "death Wobble" at 25 mph. I nearly killed me and some friends. It's been up on the jacks for 8 months getting restored... king pins, steering linkage and full brake job.)

My rear drums have some minor surface rust where the shoes contact. My shoes are new, woven, and cut to a taper on the ends. For now, I decided against arcing, since the shoes should wear in. Again, still on the jacks, I have not driven this car. My question is, will the minor surface rust get worn off by the shoes quickly or at all? The drums are near perfect, yet steel, and have no evidence of ever having been turned. I have an impending short tour with our local club and want to participate with the steel drums. Can the rust be turned down, or ground down, or should I use EvapoRust to dissolve the rust?

If all goes well, I may use them for a while, and install the cast iron drums some time in the future.

Chuck

[J Franklin]

Scuff the rust off with some sandpaper and try out those drums, if they haven't been turned the shoes shouldn't need arcing.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Buy one of those sanding wheels that you use with an electric drill. I call them a flap sanding wheel. I'm not sure of the correct name, but they have several short strips of sandpaper around the wheel. These would work well for a job like sanding rust out of brake drums or rusty cylinder walls before removing the pistons.

Here's an example:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Pc-1-x-1-...item5b10514c9a

[Big hammer]

Have you seen newer cars with disc brakes and rusty rotors
When in a few miles of driving they clean up

[Mitch//pa]

the cast iron will dissipate heat better and give you overall better stopping. you can scuff up the rusty surface on your old drums using something like 80 grit reg sandpaper. have fun with your experiment and post your results

[Kevin in NJ]

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Chuck, what you propose to do is not very smart and I would very strongly recommend that you not do what you propose.

First off you will be risking substantially less breaking unless the brakes are are awfully close to right. This is very unlikely so you will have very crappy brakes. The second aspect is time to wear. When you put shoes in a car that was driven every day the shoes would wear in and maybe over a few weeks or few months they would get to full contact. This equats to years of driving in an antique car as you just do not drive it enough. The third problem to consider is the high level of heat. When you do not have full contact you generate more heat because you do not have enough surface area to effectively brake the wheel.

Now you have driven with the new shoes on the old drums and got them worn into place. You realize that the original worn steel drums are really not that good cause they aren't so you put the new drums on the car. Well now the shoes are worn for the larger diameter shoes. So the ends of the shoes contact first and they do not work right (shoes are ground to be slightly smaller diameter then then drum) as I believe they chatter in this condition.

So in the end you get to drive a lot of miles on a car with substandard brakes because you do not feel like making the effort to do the job right. There is even a chance that after change to the cast drums the shoes will have to be relined because they were worn wrong to fit the new drums.

Be smart. Put in new wedges, arc the shoes, center the shoes and put the new drums on all in one sitting. Yes it is expensive and yes it is some work, but it will let you have great and much safer brakes.

Remember, the reason why people say the Model A brakes suck is because they don't fix them properly. Your idea will teach you just how bad poorly done brakes can be.

[mhsprecher]

I agree with Kevin on this one. Plus, you don't know whether the steel drums are within tolerance. I have written here many times that I have one car with cast drums that stops on a dime and another with steel drums where you hope you don't have to panic stop. Cast iron drums are on the agenda for that car within the next month or so. That said, I have not had my steel drums checked, so I have no idea whether they are in or out of tolerance. There can be other factors contributing, as well. If you have bought the drums, you are most of the way here.

I don't know who here has this tag line on his posts, but it is one of my favorites: "If you don't have time to do it right the first time, how do you have the time to do it a second time?" Or something to that effect.

[Mitch//pa]

i agree also just didnt put in in book form

[larrys40]

I totally agree with Kevin as well. You will be putting wear and a seat in the new linings that will definitely not match and can cause premature wear on your new shoes rendering them much more ineffective once the new drums are installed . You state the brakes have been redone so not sure how extensive that is but I would not go to all the trouble if the brakes were done right and them do what you are proposing . This is Monday . I can get drums fixed up in a day or two . Do it by the weekend and be done . Be sure to turn the new drums to true before install. ... And if course arc the shoes to fit the new drums
It DOES make a difference along with centering . I use kr wilson centering gauges with a feeler gauge that the ford dealers used when these cars were new .

Larry Shepard

[Marco Tahtaras]

Most of whats been said is hypothetical. Nobody has yet determined just what you are working with. For starters, many shoes have been altered by changing the structural radius instead of arcing the lining by grinding. It also makes no sense to gather all the parts and taking them to a shop and having shoes arced without first knowing what is or isn't needed.

Obviously it's easiest (and best) if you have access to a simple drum gauge. Then you will know precisely what you are working with. I would be shocked if your drums were indeed standard but it's not impossible.

Check the fit of the shoes to the drums. Simply remove the springs and slip out the shoe assemblies. Place one inside a drum to see if it rocks (smaller radius) and by how much. If you hold one end against the drum and the other end is .025" away from the drum it's a serious problem and I'd guess that in 10k miles you may reach 50% contact. If it's .010" then it's conceivable the brakes could wear in given enough time.

Obviously you don't want the shoe to touch the drum on each end and be able to get a feeler gauge between the drum and the shoe at the center. This would however indicate that particular shoe has been altered as mentioned above.

The bottom line is you need to know going in if there even a chance of things functioning 'as-is'. The odds are not in your favor. Then there is the aspect of shoe centering, but that's another story.

As far as steel drums go, I've done several where you will wish your passenger had a shoulder harness if you ever had to panic stop.

[Henry's Lady's Man]

Great stuff to work with. Thanks for the advice. I did install Flathead Ted's floater kit, and did (what I think) extensive restoration. I got a good deal on completely restored rear brake assemblies L/R as well. I have FH Ted's "Pins" for the rear, but haven't yet installed them.

I work full time, so haven't been able to post back and forth like some members. I will go with the cast iron drums soon. I just haven't taken it off the jacks and wanted to try the steel drums for a very short time. I don't want the new shoes wearing into the old drums much at all.

The shop is 15 miles away. Do I need to take the shoes off or bring the car in to have them arced? I'm not familiar with the arcing machinery or process.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Try fitting the shoes to the drums first. They may not even need arcing. I haven't arced shoes since the 70's and I've had brakes that stop well.

BTW, in a panic stop, if the brakes lock up, there is no longer heat generated in the steel drums, so they don't expand other than the shoes pushing against the sides.

[1930artdeco]

My steel drums were turned several times-and they were never meant to be turned at all. When I had to stop I would hit the brakes only to have them fade away. Then I would let off the pedal for them to cool down. Now that I have the cast Iron ones I don't have that problem.

As far as the process of arcing goes, you need to take the shoes off and place them in the drum and take measurements with a feeler gauge (or the shop will). Then the shop will know how much to grind off so you get 100% contact.

Mike

[Henry's Lady's Man]

Most everybody is saying the same thing, so I will take the old and new drums to the shop to have the hubs switched, and the shoes to be arced.

Thanx for all the input. I was forestalling the inevitable. ~Chuck

[Tom Endy]

Originally Posted by Henry's Lady's Man

Most everybody is saying the same thing, so I will take the old and new drums to the shop to have the hubs switched, and the shoes to be arced.

Thanx for all the input. I was forestalling the inevitable. ~Chuck

My advice is be very careful where you take the new drums and old hubs for installation. Most modern shops do not have a clue about the art of swaging. They are likely to warp the hubs and crack the cast iron drums.

You need to find a shop or cottage industry that speaks Model A and know what they are doing. Randy Gross has that knowledge and capability and can easily do the whole job.

Tom Endy

[Henry's Lady's Man]

Thanx, Tom. Since I already had the drums shipped from Mel/Randy in California, I think it would be smart to try it locally. I am in Albuquerque, NM and there is a brake and clutch shop that the club uses and recommends (dang it, they have the same work hours as I do).

I also have an issue with one of the hubs in the steel drum; someone welded the wheel studs onto the hub. Frank, at Lewis Brake and Clutch, says that indicates loose holes in the hub. I can get a new hub for $135 from Snyders or Tam's. Hopefully, using an old hub with a new one should not be an issue. I think it is part A-1115.

By the way, I've read a few of your articles. Good stuff. ~Chuck

[Henry's Lady's Man]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Try fitting the shoes to the drums first. They may not even need arcing. I haven't arced shoes since the 70's and I've had brakes that stop well.

BTW, in a panic stop, if the brakes lock up, there is no longer heat generated in the steel drums, so they don't expand other than the shoes pushing against the sides.

Thanks Tom, just for curiosity's sake, I will see how the shoes fit the steel drums. Though there is some minor rust under the car, this '30 Town Sedan (Briggs) is in amazing original shape, with 4150 on the odometer. It just may be the original steel drums. I'm curious also, because of resale value, since I'm switching to cast iron.

I've got to see it for myself... new shoes with an uncut, low mileage original steel drum. I will measure. Also, I only have a caliper with extensions to get the ID of the drum. It is not the appropriate tool, but I'll see what it says. What are the new specs for fresh drums? ~Chuck

[Tom Wesenberg]

11.00" is standard for a new drum.
Try Bert's for a good used original hub that matches your's. 800-321-1931

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Henry's Lady's Man

Thanks Tom, just for curiosity's sake, I will see how the shoes fit the steel drums. Though there is some minor rust under the car, this '30 Town Sedan (Briggs) is in amazing original shape, with 4150 on the odometer. It just may be the original steel drums. I'm curious also, because of resale value, since I'm switching to cast iron.

I've got to see it for myself... new shoes with an uncut, low mileage original steel drum. I will measure. Also, I only have a caliper with extensions to get the ID of the drum. It is not the appropriate tool, but I'll see what it says. What are the new specs for fresh drums? ~Chuck

That is EXACTLY what I was striving for and why I spent so much time on a single post. You are far better off knowing what you have and just where you want to go, than having someone else making decisions (often questionable at best) for you!

[Henry's Lady's Man]

I don't have any means of accurately measuring the ID, but my calipers gave me 0.14 thickness. There is one rivet valley in one drum, but shallow. For the hub, I'd "Better Call Bert".