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Old 11-12-2019, 05:26 PM   #1
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

I have repeatedly stated here that skilled labor is becoming too expensive in this country. The reverse side of this is many hobbyists undervalue what a restored Model-A costs simply because they under-estimate the amount of actual time it takes to do a task. Painting, bodywork, and sheetmetal repair is a great example of this.

Adding to that, many hobbyists do not realize that as small as a Model-A is, there is a tremendous amount of surface area on Model-A sheetmetal when all those areas are added up. For example, ...fenders, body aprons, and even the hood are twice as big as they appear when you factor in that both sides of the item show. Then factor in that Black is the predominant color, -and we all know that any panel painted a dark color must be straight to look good. So, for those of you who are still in the mood for discussing this topic, take a moment to click on the link below and read Hemmings' take on this, ...and then let me know your thoughts.



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Old 11-12-2019, 06:30 PM   #2
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

That is a very interesting article. Being partially in the resto business none of it surprises me. What often does surprise (or startles) me is the cost of materials and products!
And, I find it pretty much on point. Restoring cars is sorta like renovating old houses; most don’t give credible value disassembly! One has to un-do and then start re-assembly. Ain’t that easy!
If you’re paying to get something restored it can’t be for one with a weak checkbook
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Old 11-12-2019, 07:11 PM   #3
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

I owned a body shop for five years doing mostly higher end paint on older sports cars like Triumphs, Mg's and 240z's etc. The amount of work preparing even a body in reasonably good shape for a near flawless paint job is incredible. Imperfections/welds etc from the factory that are unnoticeable with factory paint become blaring when you are doing a color sanded/polished finish. Quit after five years because we realized it was going to take a long time to gain the reputation necessary to charge what we needed to stay in business. I had a family to feed.
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Old 11-12-2019, 08:54 PM   #4
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

Like Humperhill I owned part interest in a restoration shop which was an extension of a commercial shop and the cost of materials, labor and time factors became prohibitive, now we only do special small job such as some SMALL corrective "redos" painting small objects such as wheels etc. and a full agreement with customer before any work is done. If we have a customer who says "too much," I ask buy some materials and see for yourself...
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Old 11-12-2019, 10:14 PM   #5
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

I think $$$ is the main reason old “patina” is so popular.
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Old 11-12-2019, 10:48 PM   #6
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

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I still have the receipts from the guy who originally restored my coupe in '84, and even then the bodywork and painting represented the majority of his total restoration costs. Easily over $10K in 2019 dollars.
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Old 11-13-2019, 01:02 AM   #7
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

I just painted a car a little while ago as practice. some single stage blue metallic. just a cheap used car. I think 9-12 hours spread over a few days of color sanding and polishing. A better application could have saved me a bunch of time. The body work took quite a bit and a trained eye could pick it out I did water proof filler, spot putty, a couple coats of primer. I feel Im getting a lot better at it. This is probably the 6th paint job I've done. I have some good mirroring on it. I was mindful of the flop. It looks pretty nice....for a used car. But It would never pass the scrutiny any of us put on a paint job that would be on our Babys.To pay to have the time put into this job by the cheapest of professionals would cost more than the 2000 the car is worth. This is the 67$ a gallon starfire daytona blue matallic. for the price amazing. for twice the price it would still be great paint. But its nothing compared to good stuff. The urethanes are so much better but cost so much more.



Edit:I must add every time I paint a car all the running around and sanding and work, sets off my hip pain or elbow pain or something where I cant do much till it gets better. And USE YOUR RESPIRATORS!!! CLEAR COAT IN THE AIR WILL MAKE YOU SICK!!! only did that once about 15 years ago.




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Old 11-13-2019, 06:20 AM   #8
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

I think $$$ is the main reason old “patina” is so popular.





amen to that...........


I can buy 2 cars with patina for one nice looking car.........
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Old 11-13-2019, 07:05 AM   #9
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

I have advised many people to just find the car they like and buy it. To find an old car are restore it, is a losing proposition. You are never going to get out of it what you put in it. I did my dad's 1925 coupe about 12 years ago. Every nut and bolt type of restoration. I did all of the work myself with just a pretty good paint job and I had over $16000 in it. You can buy those cars all day long for $12 - $16000.


The article is right on about everything. Labor rates quoted might be low. Thanks for posting the link!
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Old 11-13-2019, 08:04 AM   #10
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

Thanks for Posting this article Brent. It says it all. I put my remarks in a facebook page that also had it. Like you I've been doing restoration work for 45 years. It took me a long time to get honest with people and tell them what they where looking at in the end. I've tracked the time on this work over the years, so I have a good idea of the time it takes and sometimes I'm still out by 20% due to the condition of the vehicle. I tell most people today that your looking at $125,000. to start for a ground up restortation and we'll go up from there depending on how detailed and correct you want the car. Because the cars we start with a pretty rotted it can easily take 8 weeks just to do the metal work including fitting. Then 3 weeks to do the filler work. 6 weeks for paint prep. 1 week to paint all of the pieces, 10 days to watersand and polish. And then go from there for the assembly, mechanics, upholstery, wiring, glass chrome. This is why when you own a Model "A" you need to learn to do as much as you can. But we do Love them!! JP
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Old 11-13-2019, 08:09 AM   #11
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

I am currently painting my 31 Slant Windshield Cabriolet using TCP Global, Acrylic Urethane. Wonderful paint! I agree with this article 100%. I've spent 2 summers on the body work and finally started painting in September. I have completed the fenders, splash aprons, hood and doors and so far so good. I can't say enough good things about the new paints. I am using epoxy primer/hardener, high build primer/hardener and (3) top coats with hardener. The next day this paint is hard and smooth as glass!


The labor on a job like this is a killer. The cost of the paint is the least of your worries. Getting the rumble lid perfect is proving to be the most difficult for me. I am using full sheets of sand paper and sanding in multiple directions and find that I have to skim coat again in one area.



I am painting Kewannee and Elkpointe Green. There are so many different interpretations of these colors. I couldn't find any codes for these colors, so I held my breath and purchased quarts of blue, green, white, black. I used a web site called "TryColors.com that allows you to electronically mix colors to get close to what you want. I used liquid oz. as units. It is amazing, I couldn't believe how close I came to what I wanted on the first test batch. After you get the lower body color the way you like it, you simply add black to get the darker trim color, in my case, Elkpointe Green.



The challenging part of all this is that TCP Global has many different shades of the various colors of white, blue and green. You just have to pick base colors that are in the right direction for the color you want. The paint was mixed in pint batches and finally poured into a gallon container and mixed for 10 to 15 minutes to be sure it was all in the final color. The various paint colors all mixed and blended very easily to get the final color. I mixed 4 quarts of Kewannee Green and 3 quarts of Elkpointe Green. I figure I have about $1200.00 in paints, hardener, solvent, sand paper, mixing cups, fine line masking tape and painters tape.


The sad thing for me is this is my last paint project (I'm 77). I think I finally know what to do to get a presentable paint job and it is over! If you are young and love this hobby, purchase the necessary equipment, do a lot of reading and do the body work and paint yourself. You will save a ton of money and most likely be able to sell your car for what you have invested in it.
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Old 11-13-2019, 08:52 AM   #12
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

That article and all of the above comments are spot on. Def. cheaper in the long run to purchase a car already finished than to restore one, IF youre paying someone to do so. Some people (like myself) restore as a hobby. Labor is def. the highest cost factor, and even for a do it yourselfer, time is valuable, although it may not have a dollar amount. There was similar discussion on another forum I belong to and it was the general concensis that a min. paint job would cost $20k plus. I agree, again IF you have a shop. I posted a thread that I called my 'cheap paint job'. On my car (70's Pontiac) I have about $3k in product and tools. On my current project I have less than $1k into the paint and everything is done but the hood. Both jobs are far from concours quality, but are at least as good as factory. Not a knock on any pro shops, but it is still possible to have a quality car with a quality finish if you are willing to put in the sweat equity.
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Old 11-13-2019, 08:55 AM   #13
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

Edit to above post: In my never ending quest for a Model A, I am def. looking to get one already restored for all of the reasons described, however I would also love to find one that needs restored, just because. I would really love to do a woody, being a lifelong woodworker, master carpenter, furniture maker.
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Old 11-13-2019, 09:37 AM   #14
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed in Maine View Post
I am currently painting my 31 Slant Windshield Cabriolet using TCP Global, Acrylic Urethane. Wonderful paint! I agree with this article 100%. I've spent 2 summers on the body work and finally started painting in September. I have completed the fenders, splash aprons, hood and doors and so far so good. I can't say enough good things about the new paints. I am using epoxy primer/hardener, high build primer/hardener and (3) top coats with hardener. The next day this paint is hard and smooth as glass!


The labor on a job like this is a killer. The cost of the paint is the least of your worries. Getting the rumble lid perfect is proving to be the most difficult for me. I am using full sheets of sand paper and sanding in multiple directions and find that I have to skim coat again in one area.



I am painting Kewannee and Elkpointe Green. There are so many different interpretations of these colors. I couldn't find any codes for these colors, so I held my breath and purchased quarts of blue, green, white, black. I used a web site called "TryColors.com that allows you to electronically mix colors to get close to what you want. I used liquid oz. as units. It is amazing, I couldn't believe how close I came to what I wanted on the first test batch. After you get the lower body color the way you like it, you simply add black to get the darker trim color, in my case, Elkpointe Green.



The challenging part of all this is that TCP Global has many different shades of the various colors of white, blue and green. You just have to pick base colors that are in the right direction for the color you want. The paint was mixed in pint batches and finally poured into a gallon container and mixed for 10 to 15 minutes to be sure it was all in the final color. The various paint colors all mixed and blended very easily to get the final color. I mixed 4 quarts of Kewannee Green and 3 quarts of Elkpointe Green. I figure I have about $1200.00 in paints, hardener, solvent, sand paper, mixing cups, fine line masking tape and painters tape.


The sad thing for me is this is my last paint project (I'm 77). I think I finally know what to do to get a presentable paint job and it is over! If you are young and love this hobby, purchase the necessary equipment, do a lot of reading and do the body work and paint yourself. You will save a ton of money and most likely be able to sell your car for what you have invested in it.
Ed, TCP Global have all the paint code and color chips in their library for all the Model A colors. Did you talk to them about it?
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Old 11-13-2019, 09:42 AM   #15
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

The restoration of what is termed as low end antique cars such as the model A and many other marques started out as a hobby for DIY guys. The only big restoration shops back in the 50s & 60s were the ones that had clients or wealthy owners that wanted to restore Duesenbergs, Marmons, or Auburns and the like. They weren't interested in the lower end cars so much.

Folks that have made a living in the general restoration of automobiles & related items have always experienced ups & downs but the sad thing is that the next generations may not be interested in the older cars. Automobiles manufactured in this day and age are pretty much throw away cars and few will last into future generations.

My own business in general aviation has experienced the same downturns but no one really has the funds to restore or overhaul them either. They have priced themselves into a smaller and smaller niche market where only experimental stuff and the least expensive stuff will likely survive. It goes back to the hobby DIY guy that wants something and doesn't have the funding to buy it in complete form.

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Old 11-13-2019, 10:08 AM   #16
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

Many of the costs associated with first class paint jobs today can be attributed to EPA regs on paint booth air quality and hazardous materials disposal. Too, minimum wages in the fifties was around a buck an hour.
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Old 11-13-2019, 10:10 AM   #17
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

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Automobiles manufactured in this day and age are pretty much throw away cars and few will last into future generations.

Ironically, when you go back and consider many of teen-era and earlier automobiles, those were "throw away cars" also. The technology that was coming on each subsequent year's automobile made them obsolete by the time they were one year old. Additionally, many of these orphan automobiles suffered from breakage that also made them a 'throw away'. Today these early 'throw away' automobiles now have one of the strongest followings and command big prices. Maybe throw away vehicles are not a bad thing.



Also some food for thought. While 'Patina' is a fad that presently does seem attractive, I wonder how long that trend will last? Look at the infatuation that folks had with the vehicle know as a 'Rat Rod'. These were vehicles that were very popular due to the low entry-level costs. It appears the trend has now exited about as fast as it came in, and most hobbyists care nothing for them. What will be interesting to watch in the Model-A hobby is what becomes of the 'restored' vehicles when they become used-up and need to be re-restored.
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Old 11-13-2019, 06:15 PM   #18
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You guys are going about this all wrong. You need to do your homework.

Luckily I'm not too real far from Chicago. I can get a car painted plus $20 free body work by Earl, for $99.95

You just have to shop around I'll show you what I mean look at this 30 second advertisement.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Auvf7DDw5z0
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Old 11-13-2019, 06:37 PM   #19
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

While I agree most all cars in the low budget market have always been considered as throw aways by the original owners and even the manufacturers to some extent. The difference is basic simplicity and popularity of the models. Cars of the modern era are not made from quality structural and trim materials and they have complicated electronics that don't necessarily have long service lives. If we think it's hard to get parts for model As, just wait till you have to restore a 21st century car 40, 50, or more years after production is over. I just don't think folks have as much nostalgia for the modern stuff. It all looks the same from year to year. When I was a kid, a model A was only 35-years old but it just looks so much different than a 60s car. I just had to have one. I'm just thankful that I can look back at the cars of my youth and still like a lot of them. I look at older 21st century cars and they just don't do that for me anymore.
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Old 11-13-2019, 06:59 PM   #20
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

All that has been said above applies over here too. There is one advantage I see in doing a resto yourself over buying a car someone else has done. You know what you have. I have seen (both here and in the US) cars that look great but when you get right down to it, they have not been restored to the standard I would want. OK for a driver maybe but rarely more.
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Old 11-13-2019, 08:30 PM   #21
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois View Post
You guys are going about this all wrong. You need to do your homework.

Luckily I'm not too real far from Chicago. I can get a car painted plus $20 free body work by Earl, for $99.95

You just have to shop around I'll show you what I mean look at this 30 second advertisement.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Auvf7DDw5z0
When did the price go up? in 1970, Earl painted my '49 Chevy for $29.99, including some overspray on the tires. When I complained, they told me the overspray was a bonus. Scheib always gave you a half-pint can of the matching paint so you could touch up the peel-offs that would start to happen a few months later.
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Old 11-13-2019, 09:04 PM   #22
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

Although the subject article described a highly collectible muscle car being restored to new, or better than new, condition, the unmistakable take away is that contracted restoration work is very expensive. Most of us do not plan to drop off a rough collectable, a starter check, send another check every month, pick up a beautiful piece of rolling stock six months later, and drive to Pebble Beach. Most are happy just to have a nice driver to go on ice cream missions. However, just building a driver can be prohibitively expensive. If there were rules for new folks entering the hobby, Rule #1 would probably be to only pursue a car with a clear title with numbers that match the car, preferably on the engine block. Rule #2 should be to locate a car that is at or close to the condition the new owner plans to maintain it. If a buy-motivated middle aged would-be enthusiast with fundamental wrench bending ability located a $6500 barn find that was solid, complete, rust free, but also dirty, had not run in 30 years, and was something of a critter condo – what kind of advise would you give and why ? Pretty sure the old heads can provide some worthwhile information that would be helpful to a new troop working his way into the Model A culture. Welcome any other thoughts on the recommended rules for buying a Model A.
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Old 11-13-2019, 09:04 PM   #23
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

Before I gave my daughter my Rdst. PU that my dad and I restored when I was 15 I re-restored the truck in the color of her choice, red. I was living in central Mexico at the time so I loaded the truck on my trailer and took it about 13 hours south of the border for a face lift. My painter did a pretty good job and it has held up well. Can't remember what I had in it but it was a fraction of the cost of having it done in the states. And to be honest, I couldn't have afforded to have it done in the US.

I'm in the process of restoring two cars now and doing all the work that I can myself. I happen to enjoy working on a car more than driving so the process is saving me money, actually making it possible for the cars to be restored and I'm enjoying the process.
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Old 11-14-2019, 02:41 PM   #24
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

An earlier post mentioned that TCP Global has the original paint codes. I did obtain two spray out samples ($35.00 ea.) for the Kewannee and Elkpointe Green. They were too dark and muddy looking. Don't assume that the colors will be to your liking without getting samples. Ed
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Old 11-14-2019, 03:38 PM   #25
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

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An earlier post mentioned that TCP Global has the original paint codes. I did obtain two spray out samples ($35.00 ea.) for the Kewannee and Elkpointe Green. They were too dark and muddy looking. Don't assume that the colors will be to your liking without getting samples. Ed
That is true.....and PPG and Dupont did not have a good color match for the Elkpoint Green. The Kewaunee green was pretty close, but the codes were not correct for Elkpoint.
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Old 11-14-2019, 03:41 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulletwagon View Post

Most of us do not plan to drop off a rough collectable, a starter check, send another check every month, pick up a beautiful piece of rolling stock six months later, and drive to Pebble Beach. Most are happy just to have a nice driver to go on ice cream missions.

However, just building a driver can be prohibitively expensive. If there were rules for new folks entering the hobby, Rule #1 would probably be to only pursue a car with a clear title with numbers that match the car, preferably on the engine block. Rule #2 should be to locate a car that is at or close to the condition the new owner plans to maintain it. If a buy-motivated middle aged would-be enthusiast with fundamental wrench bending ability located a $6500 barn find that was solid, complete, rust free, but also dirty, had not run in 30 years, and was something of a critter condo – what kind of advise would you give and why ? Pretty sure the old heads can provide some worthwhile information that would be helpful to a new troop working his way into the Model A culture. Welcome any other thoughts on the recommended rules for buying a Model A.
Yeah, you can almost stake your life on not being able to have one restored in 6 months. They only do that type of thing on TV shows!!


Using your analogy of a 30-40 year old restoration that has not been driven, the thing I have typically seen is these cars were parked and not used for a reason. Granted there will always be exceptions but generally it is because the vehicle performed unreliably or poorly where there was usually an issue with it every time it was taken out of the garage, so it just stayed in the garage. Therefore my advice is budget for the worst and hope for the best.

So depending on expectations and goals, my minimum maintenance advice to that newbie would include an engine rebuild by a reputable rebuilder. Just because an engine has new bearings from 40 years ago does not mean the job was done correctly with proper materials. Next would be tires and tubes. Next would be a complete mechanical brake rebuild bringing everything back with factory specifications. A complete steering assessment would be in order too. I would also budget for a gas tank restoration and new radiator and hope those are not needed. Then you get into lesser thought of items such as battery, generator, carburetor, distributor, hoses, lube change-outs, etc. Realistically, the parts alone on these items alone will easily surpass the initial purchase price.

And for what its worth, I can tell you that from experience that buying a running/driving car for more money does not always make it a better value. Spending a few extra thousand dollars on a vehicle that has a running engine yet needs the engine to be rebuilt (out of bearing shims, improper bearing material, etc.) does not make it a better value. Buying a 'restored' vehicle where the Seller suggests the brakes and steering probably only need to be adjusted, and maybe a quick tune-up to make it "ready to drive anywhere" generally is found to be far from factual when it is then parked in the Buyer's garage.




I do agree that "in theory" it does makes sense to buy a collector car that is already restored, ...however most buyers will tell you that finding one that has truly been restored (-or even repaired correctly) is very difficult. Most collector vehicles available on the market are really 'Repair & Repaints' that generally leave their new owners disgusted at their purchase as they quickly learn their vehicle seemingly is a money pit. For that reason alone, I find that is the sole reason why having one restored makes sense to them.


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Old 11-14-2019, 03:54 PM   #27
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The best way I think to buy a “done one” is to join a club and get to know the members and their cars. Then wait until one of their cars goes up for sale. If if you haven’t seen the car out much if it comes up for sale the others members in the club will let you know
the good and the bad, you can bet on it.
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Old 11-14-2019, 06:20 PM   #28
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

I think folks way overthink the restoration process. These cars when new were cobbled together fast. Same as the '60's muscle cars. Orange peeled paint, mismatched body lines. Fit and finish were far down the list of priorities. Oil leaks. All that and more.

I chose to restore my '71 F350 to what it could have looked like 10 years into it's life. Faded paint, couple rust streaks are perfect. 6bt and aluminum diamond plate dump bed just top it off like a good owner might have. I think too many folks expect too much from a restored car.
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Old 11-15-2019, 12:21 AM   #29
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I have always done my own body and paint work. I do it to satisfy myself. I still use lacquer as it is very forgiving and easy to touch up. I did this 30 roadster about four years ago and all the materials to do the bodywork and paint work came in around $900 dollars. I was going to post the pictures but I can’t figure out how to do that 😂
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Old 11-15-2019, 07:15 AM   #30
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

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I think folks way overthink the restoration process. These cars when new were cobbled together fast. Same as the '60's muscle cars. Orange peeled paint, mismatched body lines. Fit and finish were far down the list of priorities. Oil leaks. All that and more.

I chose to restore my '71 F350 to what it could have looked like 10 years into it's life. Faded paint, couple rust streaks are perfect. 6bt and aluminum diamond plate dump bed just top it off like a good owner might have. I think too many folks expect too much from a restored car.

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Old 11-15-2019, 09:12 AM   #31
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

I get that for many people, the work itself is meditative and fulfilling, but if I were going to take on a project that involved substantial bodywork, I'd look for a luxury marque. You end up putting in the same amount of time and money, and the result is more aesthetically pleasing and retains more of the value. It's easy to forget these cars were mass-produced and there are still many thousands of them out there. There's no ROI on essentially hand-building part of the body when there are many others out there that still have more or less the body they left the factory with.
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Old 11-15-2019, 09:59 AM   #32
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

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You guys are going about this all wrong. You need to do your homework.

Luckily I'm not too real far from Chicago. I can get a car painted plus $20 free body work by Earl, for $99.95

You just have to shop around I'll show you what I mean look at this 30 second advertisement.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Auvf7DDw5z0
I worked at Earl Scheib when I was a young pup, back then it was $29.95, masking was extra, so if you did not pay for masking we painted everything...and I do mean everything.
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Old 11-15-2019, 02:00 PM   #33
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My dad had that done in the early 70s at Earl's - had to do all prep work himself - body and filler, sanding, masking, trim removal if needed. I seem to remember he had to supply the paint since there was something special about it, and Earl did not carry it.
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Old 11-15-2019, 02:27 PM   #34
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

There are enough photos from the manufacture of model As to see that they were put together very well with excellent quality control. They were inexpensive, yes, but cobbled together, No. Fit and finish was very good on these cars. Ford never accepted crap work from any of the sub-contract companies either. When some part or assembly gave problems, it was changed by engineering. This is evident in the service bulletins that were so many, it takes a book to hold them.

As far as how long it takes to do a thorough and accurate restoration, that depends on a multitude of factors. A one man shop can do as good a job as any but the time involved is going to be a lot longer due to the hours of labor it take to do the average job. There are only so many hours in a day.

A multi man shop can do it a lot faster since the labor is split between the workers. The larger the shop, the larger the payroll and overhead. Different people have different skill levels and work ethics so that really has an effect. If work gets slow then some employees have to go but where do you find skilled help and how much do you have to pay to keep them when times are good. I don't envy larger shops since I've been there myself and know how much fun it can be. As a forman, I've had to be a customer care guy, teacher, a quality control fixer of problems, and a worker in my own right. It's not an easy job. Things go more quickly but not necessarily smoothly. This always reflects in the costs of the job.

The DIY guy can take as long as he wants but even those folks need some professional help now and then for skill sets they don't possess & tooling they don't have. Some DIY guys possess a lot of drive to finish their projects. Others may never completely finish and it will go on to the next owner. The simpler cars like the open cars and pickups suit a DIY guy better than a fordor or station wagon since those cars have a lot of wood or trim that is more complicated to work with. The coupe is less complicated than a tudor model but similar skill sets are required and they are still relatively simple. The cabriotlets are high on the complicated list and not very easy to restore or find parts for. All of these different cars have different amounts of labor involved for a restoration and that has to be considered by the prospective buyer.

Folks that have done restorations can generally tell you how long it takes for the different models they have experienced. Clubs helped a lot back when they were more popular by guys willing to help each other out when they needed and giving some much needed motivation at times.
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Old 11-15-2019, 02:58 PM   #35
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

My '29 Tudor took me over 2300 hours of my time to restore and my newly finished early '28 Coupe took me 17 years from start to finish!
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Old 11-15-2019, 05:53 PM   #36
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Gary, nice cars they look great Well done.

I agree with rotorwrench, that the Model A Fords left the Assy. lines in pretty darn good condition. Henry wouldn't have accepted junk. And also, in previous posts here, experienced Model A Ford guys have said 'If you EVER get the chance to drive or ride in a very low mileage original car, you will be amazed at how well they run and handle and how the doors have a solid 'clunk' sound to them when shutting, etc.'

In the Nov., 2019 Hemmings Muscle Machines there is an article about a guy who restored a '71 Torino Convt. He went way above and beyond and 'fixed' body gap issues, etc. from the factory. I wouldn't have gone that far myself. Here is a link.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/articl...convertible-2/
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Old 11-15-2019, 10:18 PM   #37
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Excellent, well-informed article. Thanks for starting this excellent thread. But to tell all about restoration the article would have to be so long it would take ten years to read; the same amount of time it takes to start to become a proficient restorer IF that restorer is dedicated to reading, researching, intense self-training and practice for at least two hours per day on his own time every day, with a consuming passion for excellence and honesty(Then it becomes a consuming life-long habit that can't be broken). The message on cost of a restoration is not arguable for the kind of quality necessary, mentioning a minimum of $125,000.00 and going much higher as skilled hours, parts, materials and specialties dictate for each project. 'Good article; I'm not putting it down at all by mentioning that I never put a "sealer" over stripped or blasted bare metal. I always clean the bare metal with a phosphoric acid solution, then prime it with an acid wash primer, then seal that with epoxy primer. Another difference I have with the good author is that I have never seen, in 46 years of professional restoration pitted rust successfully removed by "sanding" unless it is a small part that is thick enough to lose .010" or more of its thickness without weakening it and the customer can afford the inefficiency. 'Lots of good comments on this thread.
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Old 11-16-2019, 01:07 PM   #38
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

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Cars of the modern era are not made from quality structural and trim materials and they have complicated electronics that don't necessarily have long service lives.
Having been a mechanic (or 'auto service technician', to be fancy) for about 40 years, I have come to a different opinion. Reliability and longevity have greatly improved over the years. In the '50's you had bragging rights if your engine went 100,000 miles without being opened up. Usually a valve job was needed by 50-60,000 miles and by 100,000 it was a leaky, smoking mess. Now 300,000 miles is relatively common, and still no smoke, and few or no oil leaks. Back then, seats were torn and the stuffing coming out in just a few years. Seat covers were big business. Now how often do you see a late model car with seat covers on it? Now, seats look almost new after 100,000 plus miles. In the Rust Belt, rocker panels and floorboards were dissolved in 2-3 years! That's rare now.
Automatic trans shops used to be everywhere. Now even Aamco has to do general repair to survive. A lot of this improvement is due to those complicated electronic controls on transmissions, plus closer tolerances, better fluids and better materials. When I've had the heads off a late model engine (usually a Dodge one ton with recessed valve seats), even after 100,000 plus miles you could still see factory honing marks at the top of the cylinders. A major factor here is electronic fuel injection which prevents flooding and cylinder washdown on cold starts.
Brake shops are hurting, too. Brakes last far longer now. When was the last time your newer car needed a muffler and tailpipe? The switch to stainless steel exhaust parts forced a lot of muffler shops to also diversify. What happened to the corner gas station that used to stock belts, hoses, tune up parts, brake shoes, shocks, mufflers, etc.? When did you last have to replace a front or rear axle bearing? And the list goes on.
True, the often extremely high cost of repairs may doom a car to an early trip to the junkyard but that's always been the case. Back when $100 would buy a fairly decent used car, a rebuilt engine was maybe also $100, and so doomed the car to the junkyard, too. Or a kid bought the car cheap and did his own ring and valve job (or clutch or whatever). Here is where there's a big difference. Diagnosis and repair of the complicated electronics is no longer a backyard job. And shop labor rates have gone from $4-5 an hour to $100 or more.

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Old 11-16-2019, 02:57 PM   #39
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

I remember getting a 1959 Chevy painted for 29.99 at Earl Scheib back in the early 70s Looked great to me at the time.
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Old 11-17-2019, 11:54 AM   #40
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

I've seen Bob Green's green 71 Torino in person. My former salesman sold him his original grabber blue 71 convertible at Mount Carmel, PA. (Kuzo Brothers Ford Mercury). Jack and I had the same reaction when looking at the car "they never had that good of panel gaps, ect. from the factory". We both thought the restoration cost had to be north of 100k. He has a 69 Mach 1, 428 4speed that I think has around 5k miles. I remarked to Bob the fit and finish on the 2008 Shelby GT 500 we sold him was 100% better but I'd still give a body part for the 69 Mach 1.....
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Old 11-17-2019, 07:10 PM   #41
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

I have a friend who grew up in LA in the 60s and remembered the Earl Shieb guy at the end of the paint job painting the tires in one smooth circlular stroke with tire black to cover the overspray.
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Old 11-17-2019, 08:59 PM   #42
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I've seen Bob Green's green 71 Torino in person. My former salesman sold him his original grabber blue 71 convertible at Mount Carmel, PA. (Kuzo Brothers Ford Mercury). Jack and I had the same reaction when looking at the car "they never had that good of panel gaps, ect. from the factory". We both thought the restoration cost had to be north of 100k. He has a 69 Mach 1, 428 4speed that I think has around 5k miles. I remarked to Bob the fit and finish on the 2008 Shelby GT 500 we sold him was 100% better but I'd still give a body part for the 69 Mach 1.....
You're probably right on the restoration cost, and, the guy did a lot of the work himself. Could you imagine hiring out that level of restoration. Yikes.

I guess bringing this back to Model A Fords, the same applies. Those guys that have those beautiful 490 plus point Fine Point Judging Model A's have a lot of sweat and money in the cars.

I'm glad they do. I love seeing them, and will never be at that level myself so I gladly look over their cars.

One thing I like about the Model A News from MARC, is the pages of DETAILED photos they publish on the Fine Point cars. Amazing stuff.
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Old 11-18-2019, 08:13 AM   #43
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Yeah, you can almost stake your life on not being able to have one restored in 6 months. They only do that type of thing on TV shows!!


Using your analogy of a 30-40 year old restoration that has not been driven, the thing I have typically seen is these cars were parked and not used for a reason. Granted there will always be exceptions but generally it is because the vehicle performed unreliably or poorly where there was usually an issue with it every time it was taken out of the garage, so it just stayed in the garage. Therefore my advice is budget for the worst and hope for the best.

So depending on expectations and goals, my minimum maintenance advice to that newbie would include an engine rebuild by a reputable rebuilder. Just because an engine has new bearings from 40 years ago does not mean the job was done correctly with proper materials. Next would be tires and tubes. Next would be a complete mechanical brake rebuild bringing everything back with factory specifications. A complete steering assessment would be in order too. I would also budget for a gas tank restoration and new radiator and hope those are not needed. Then you get into lesser thought of items such as battery, generator, carburetor, distributor, hoses, lube change-outs, etc. Realistically, the parts alone on these items alone will easily surpass the initial purchase price.

And for what its worth, I can tell you that from experience that buying a running/driving car for more money does not always make it a better value. Spending a few extra thousand dollars on a vehicle that has a running engine yet needs the engine to be rebuilt (out of bearing shims, improper bearing material, etc.) does not make it a better value. Buying a 'restored' vehicle where the Seller suggests the brakes and steering probably only need to be adjusted, and maybe a quick tune-up to make it "ready to drive anywhere" generally is found to be far from factual when it is then parked in the Buyer's garage.




I do agree that "in theory" it does makes sense to buy a collector car that is already restored, ...however most buyers will tell you that finding one that has truly been restored (-or even repaired correctly) is very difficult. Most collector vehicles available on the market are really 'Repair & Repaints' that generally leave their new owners disgusted at their purchase as they quickly learn their vehicle seemingly is a money pit. For that reason alone, I find that is the sole reason why having one restored makes sense to them.


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I know of a fellow that bought what looked like a very nicely restored car at a BJ auction. It was pretty much a half decent paint job and little to no mechanical work. He paid a premium because it looked so nice only to end up spending a lot more to get it running in top shape. I have bought many a motorcycle at auction and my only advice is buyer beware!
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Old 11-18-2019, 12:40 PM   #44
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I know of a fellow that bought what looked like a very nicely restored car at a BJ auction. It was pretty much a half decent paint job and little to no mechanical work. He paid a premium because it looked so nice only to end up spending a lot more to get it running in top shape. I have bought many a motorcycle at auction and my only advice is buyer beware!
77Birdman that very same thing happened here at home to a rather wealthy farmer friend that goes to our church.

He was at the B-J auctions about 4 or 5 years ago and plunked down cash for what he thought was the Vette of his dreams.

That dream turned into a nightmare after the car was sent back here and he was able to really go over it. He is mechanically talented and knows his way around cars. He told me that they wouldn't let him really look the car over when he was there, that they rudely ran him off. I didn't know they would do that.

He cusses those guys every time we bring them up at the coffee house
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Old 11-18-2019, 12:47 PM   #45
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77Birdman that very same thing happened here at home to a rather wealthy farmer friend that goes to our church.

He was at the B-J auctions about 4 or 5 years ago and plunked down cash for what he thought was the Vette of his dreams.

That dream turned into a nightmare after the car was sent back here and he was able to really go over it. He is mechanically talented and knows his way around cars. He told me that they wouldn't let him really look the car over when he was there, that they rudely ran him off. I didn't know they would do that.

He cusses those guys every time we bring them up at the coffee house
Was it the seller that ran him off, or B-J?


I think I can understand if it was B-J. If my car was for sale I would not want just anybody/everybody crawling all over my car if I was not present.
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Old 11-18-2019, 02:33 PM   #46
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Was it the seller that ran him off, or B-J?


I think I can understand if it was B-J. If my car was for sale I would not want just anybody/everybody crawling all over my car if I was not present.
Not sure I'll ask him next time I see him. I think it was the B-J people
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Old 11-19-2019, 09:35 AM   #47
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I have not been to a BJ auction, dont know how they are, I have bought and sold m/c's through Mecum with success. I dont think I would ever buy online after seeing a bike one time that looked amazing that I had to have. At the last minute I was able to swing the trip to FLA and attend. In person the bike was a POS! The cost of the trip more than paid for itself in the aggrevation and waste of money I would have spent on it.
We have a local Richie Brothers that sells mostly construction related stuff. I have bought a lot from them in the past, they put the stuff on the lot with keys in the ignition, you can start them, run them, check hydraulics, just about anything else. Takes most of the guess work out.
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Old 11-19-2019, 10:25 AM   #48
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

I'm sure that I am reiterating what has been said, but many car people have no idea what goes into paint and restoration. It's not hours. It's months or even a year on one vehicle, but they think you should do it for a couple grand. Not happening, so they go away angry. I do my own paint and bodywork on my own cars and leave it at that.
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