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Old 12-28-2016, 02:06 AM   #1
Synchro909
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Default Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

A guy in our club has this combination and says that the linings are tearing up his cast iron drums. He thinks the brass threads in the linings is scuffing up the drum too much and wearing them out quickly.
Does anybody have any experience on this?
Note: Experience cannot be gained from an armchair.
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Old 12-28-2016, 02:25 AM   #2
Tom Wesenberg
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Default Re: Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

Never heard of this before.
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Old 12-28-2016, 03:47 AM   #3
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Default Re: Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

Yes , same problem , the soft linings on my slant which has cast drum way too vicious, they would grab , switched too bonded harder linings like recommended , problem solved. steel drums woven linings, cast drum the black boned linings , least that's what im told , soft on hard , or hard on soft, not soft on soft or hard on hard .
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Old 12-28-2016, 04:33 AM   #4
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Default Re: Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

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Originally Posted by quickchange View Post
Yes , same problem , the soft linings on my slant which has cast drum way too vicious, they would grab , switched too bonded harder linings like recommended , problem solved. steel drums woven linings, cast drum the black boned linings , least that's what im told , soft on hard , or hard on soft, not soft on soft or hard on hard .
As far as I know, they didn't grab and he didn't even say anything about them being vicious but I'' let him know, thanks, Quickchange.
Any other experiences?
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Old 12-28-2016, 08:42 AM   #5
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Default Re: Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

How about more details of his installation and the problem.

How much wear over how many miles?

Pictures of the drums and linings.

How is the contact patch of the linings? Where are they wearing?

How were the linings arched to the drums? How were they centered?

Who's drums are they?

Kind of hard to troubleshoot without the details.
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Old 12-28-2016, 10:35 AM   #6
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Default Re: Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
A guy in our club has this combination and says that the linings are tearing up his cast iron drums. He thinks the brass threads in the linings is scuffing up the drum too much and wearing them out quickly.
Does anybody have any experience on this?
Note: Experience cannot be gained from an armchair.

With all due respect, that fellow is a little misinformed in my opinion. Woven lining is soft and is still soft with brass. Soft woven linings are made specifically for "mechanical" brakes irrespective of the drum material.
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Old 12-28-2016, 05:26 PM   #7
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Default Re: Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

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Originally Posted by robgross1930 View Post
With all due respect, that fellow is a little misinformed in my opinion. Woven lining is soft and is still soft with brass. Soft woven linings are made specifically for "mechanical" brakes irrespective of the drum material.
That has been playing on my mind too. That's why I thought I would ask about it here. That said, the original mechanical brakes of the day all (as far as I know) all used steel drums.
When did they change to bonded linings and when did they (car makers) stop using steel drums? Did those two things happen at the same time and if so, was it because they encountered the same problem as my fellow club member?
Put another way, did car makers use woven lings with cast drums?
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Old 12-28-2016, 05:54 PM   #8
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Default Re: Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

Ford changed to a composite riveted on lining during 31 before switching over to cast iron drums if I recall my order properly.

The composite lining was a brownish color, not the black like we see today. I have half a set of NOS Ford script composite linings.

I would guess (my opinion not based in fact) that Ford changed from woven because it was either much better stopping or much cheaper to manufacture. One would think it is cheaper to smush together stuff then to have some weaving machine make it. Less moving parts to keep running. I would also think science was used to get better quality from the new materials.

Also consider..
There was never a service bulletin that I can recall telling the dealers they should not woven lining with cast drums. I am pretty sure that dealers would have had both products on their shelves at the same time. They would have used up the woven lining and not cared which drum was being used on the car. You also would have had woven and composite aftermarket linings in the stores. None of the auto books of the day to my recollection tell you to use one product over the other. So if it were an issue there would be a lot of comments over the years. Instead we have a bunch of people on these boards making claims and other saying they see no difference. So that tells me there is not likely any problem with any combination.

In the end, the important thing is to ask for evidence. People make statements and just give some basic things. They saw something. No pictures, no details that let you repeat the problem easily.
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Old 12-28-2016, 06:32 PM   #9
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Default Re: Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

When I bought my 29 Coupe, it had hard brake linings with steel drums. Wouldn't stop for anything. I put woven linings on and it now stops like a dream.
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Old 12-28-2016, 07:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

As Kevin said, Ford had composite before the end of Model A production, and Ford referred to them as for "HEAVY DUTY" use, which could mean taxi cabs. It may have been in the SERVICE LETTERS where I read about them.

I have a complete drivetrain from a March 1930 Model A that was rodded. It has steel drums and composite linings, and they are in nice condition, and perfectly smooth.
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Old 12-28-2016, 09:34 PM   #11
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Default Re: Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

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Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
That has been playing on my mind too. That's why I thought I would ask about it here. That said, the original mechanical brakes of the day all (as far as I know) all used steel drums.
When did they change to bonded linings and when did they (car makers) stop using steel drums? Did those two things happen at the same time and if so, was it because they encountered the same problem as my fellow club member?
Put another way, did car makers use woven lings with cast drums?
Bonded lining means bonded to the shoe using a bonding process that uses a special adhesive. The solid looking linings, as compared to woven, are “molded” linings. Some molded linings are bonded and some are riveted. I have also seen woven linings that were bonded and of course riveted which is what we like for Model A’s.

The softer the lining material, the greater the coefficient of friction. Ford made a “soft” molded lining, I think about 1932 or so, maybe later, that had a greater coefficient of friction than the typical “hard” molded lining. The woven lining, being soft, has a higher coefficient of friction.

There are only a few things that one has to really consider: the type of brake system and the pressure it’s capable of applying and the coefficient of friction of the type of lining used. A brake system that has a weaker applied pressure, i.e., mechanical brakes, requires a soft lining that creates more friction, such as woven, to have the best brakes with that type of system. A brake system that has a strong applied pressure, i.e., hydraulic brakes, needs a harder lining with a lower coefficient of friction, such as a hard molded lining. If a lining with too high of a coefficient of friction, such as woven, is used on hydraulic brakes, the brakes can grab or lock up. On the other hand, a hard or harder molded lining used on mechanical brakes will not supply enough friction relative to the pressure applied on the shoes, and the brakes will be poor as compared to woven linings.

Last edited by robgross1930; 12-28-2016 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 12-28-2016, 09:47 PM   #12
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Default Re: Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by robgross1930 View Post
Bonded lining means bonded to the shoe using a bonding process that uses a special adhesive. The solid looking linings, as compared to woven, are “molded” linings. Some molded linings are bonded and some are riveted. I have also seen woven linings that were bonded and of course riveted which is what we like for Model A’s.

The softer the lining material, the greater the coefficient of friction. Ford made a “soft” molded lining, I think about 1932 or so, maybe later, that had a greater coefficient of friction than the typical “hard” molded lining. The woven lining, being soft, has a higher coefficient of friction.

There are only a few things that one has to really consider: the type of brake system and the pressure it’s capable of applying and the coefficient of friction of the type of lining used. A brake system that has a weaker applied pressure, i.e., mechanical brakes, requires a soft lining that creates more friction, such as woven, to have the best brakes with that type of system. A brake system that has a strong applied pressure, i.e., hydraulic brakes, needs a harder lining with a lower coefficient of friction, such as a hard molded lining. If a lining with too high of a coefficient of friction, such as woven, is used on hydraulic brakes, the brakes can grab or lock up. On the hand, a hard molded lining used on mechanical brakes will not supply enough friction relative to the pressure applied on the shoes, and the brakes will be poor as compared to woven linings.
Could you please give references to prove what you have stated?

I am not saying you are wrong. I do not know for fact about some of what you have stated above.

What is the friction ratings of the linings? Where is this written?

What says the hydraulic brakes are applied harder then mechanicals in the same application?

Where does the idea that you need harder linings for hydraulic brakes vs mechanical brakes and how does it translate to the Model A/ V8 brakes?

Again, I am not trying to be a smartass or trying to disprove you. I do not know if what you said is true or false and want to see it for myself in reliable documentation.

What you say may seem to have intuitive sense, but I like to back up intuition with data. True data about the brakes system on the A has been difficult to find. I have bought some early manuals and other documentation in hopes of getting hard fact and have not found much about various brake issues that I have questions about in my mind.

Thanks
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Old 12-28-2016, 09:58 PM   #13
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Default Re: Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

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Originally Posted by 29spcoupe View Post
When I bought my 29 Coupe, it had hard brake linings with steel drums. Wouldn't stop for anything. I put woven linings on and it now stops like a dream.
I am going to be a pain in the butt here.

Can you give more details?

What was the contact area on the shoes?

How close was the diameter of the shoe to the drum?

What condition were the other parts?

What size are the drums?

What steps did you do to the shoes to make them ready for the drums?

What is the top speed you drive at?
What do you consider great brakes?

My 30 fordor did not have brakes as in 200 feet at 30 MPH when I got it. I stopped driving it at slow speeds when I almost rear end someone and I was going slow. None of the brake parts were good or assembled right. There was like 10% shoe contact. When I got done with steel drums and woven linings I felt good at safely stopping quickly from 55 MPH. That was before I could get the shoes arched to the drums and do a good job centering the brakes like I can now. I know now that car could stop even better then what I had working then.
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Old 12-28-2016, 10:08 PM   #14
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Default Re: Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

There is a 1929 service letter than indicates a portion of all production used molded linings. I will do some research and see if I can find that letter.
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Old 12-28-2016, 11:45 PM   #15
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Default Re: Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ View Post
Could you please give references to prove what you have stated?

I am not saying you are wrong. I do not know for fact about some of what you have stated above.

What is the friction ratings of the linings? Where is this written?

What says the hydraulic brakes are applied harder then mechanicals in the same application?

Where does the idea that you need harder linings for hydraulic brakes vs mechanical brakes and how does it translate to the Model A/ V8 brakes?

Again, I am not trying to be a smartass or trying to disprove you. I do not know if what you said is true or false and want to see it for myself in reliable documentation.

What you say may seem to have intuitive sense, but I like to back up intuition with data. True data about the brakes system on the A has been difficult to find. I have bought some early manuals and other documentation in hopes of getting hard fact and have not found much about various brake issues that I have questions about in my mind.

Thanks

You obviously have no experience in tribology and its relation to industrial friction material. So I'll leave it at that.
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Old 12-29-2016, 04:10 AM   #16
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Default Re: Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

Kevin, you may wish to look at this LINK for some modern lining coefficient data.
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Old 12-29-2016, 06:13 AM   #17
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Default Re: Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ View Post
I am going to be a pain in the butt here.

Can you give more details?

What was the contact area on the shoes?

How close was the diameter of the shoe to the drum?

What condition were the other parts?

What size are the drums?

What steps did you do to the shoes to make them ready for the drums?

What is the top speed you drive at?
What do you consider great brakes?

My 30 fordor did not have brakes as in 200 feet at 30 MPH when I got it. I stopped driving it at slow speeds when I almost rear end someone and I was going slow. None of the brake parts were good or assembled right. There was like 10% shoe contact. When I got done with steel drums and woven linings I felt good at safely stopping quickly from 55 MPH. That was before I could get the shoes arched to the drums and do a good job centering the brakes like I can now. I know now that car could stop even better then what I had working then.
As I said, my car was restored 10 years before I bought it and seldom driven. It would not stop worth a damn. I adjusted them following the instructions in the red service book and they still didn't stop the car. After talking with a few Model A guys, I bought the woven linings and replaced the linings on the shoes. The car now stops fine. I usually drive at 45 to 50mph. I don't personally don't need to know all the other details. The car stops fine at those speeds, and that's fine with me.
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Old 12-29-2016, 08:49 AM   #18
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Default Re: Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by 29spcoupe View Post
As I said, my car was restored 10 years before I bought it and seldom driven. It would not stop worth a damn. I adjusted them following the instructions in the red service book and they still didn't stop the car. After talking with a few Model A guys, I bought the woven linings and replaced the linings on the shoes. The car now stops fine. I usually drive at 45 to 50mph. I don't personally don't need to know all the other details. The car stops fine at those speeds, and that's fine with me.
Cast iron or steel drums?
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Old 12-29-2016, 08:56 AM   #19
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Default Re: Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

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When I bought my 29 Coupe, it had hard brake linings with steel drums. Wouldn't stop for anything. I put woven linings on and it now stops like a dream.
As stated, steel drums
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Old 12-29-2016, 12:47 PM   #20
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Default Re: Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

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Originally Posted by Doug Clayton View Post
There is a 1929 service letter than indicates a portion of all production used molded linings. I will do some research and see if I can find that letter.
It's in the Feb. 5, 1930 Indianapolis Service Letters.

Bob
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