Rivet Installation - A Hot Topic!

[California Charlie]

Would a Mapp Gas propane torch heat a rivet red hot enough to install it?

I also thought I read something about using a Mig Welder (?) to heat a rivet hot enough to install it. If that is fact, how exactly is that done?

This looks like a big challenge to me and I've got a lot of sheet metal to assemble this way. I would rather use something that I have than to rent or buy a gas torch I've not used before.

Thanks guys, CC

[Wello]

What are you riveting?

[Jim Parker Toronto]

"I've got a lot of sheet metal to assemble this way."

I would assume the sub rails.... and maybe some body panels.... right?

[Kurt in NJ]

Those small rivits can be done cold, this way you won't burn the primer/paint from between the parts, I remember my father holding down the top with big iron piece while I hammered the bottom , the next time I made a waffle pattern on a punch, used it to finish after the rivit was mostly set
Now I would use a long travel air hammer

[oldmanandakid]

Is there something like the hardware list for rivets? I've looked and have not found anything. Such a list with recommendations about how to install each (hot or cold) would sure be helpful.

[Aerocraft]

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It has been my experience that cold setting the smaller diameter "body" rivets works better with a long stroke 4X gun. The rivets do work harden as they are driven so the lighter blows of the short guns may harden the rivet before it is set.

I would be careful using any torch and not heat the surrounding body sheet metal. A third set of hands might be helpful to heat the rivet by itself, place it in the hole, and then have two other workers drive the rivet.

If you also have to drive frame rivets it is much better to heat them red hot prior to driving. I heat the rivet in place and then drive with a 4X gun. A Mapp torch should work well although I personally prefer my oxy/act gas torch.

Suppliers such as Bratton's have the correct size rivets.

Gar Williams

[shamas]

First things first.
Mapp gas will not get a frame, 1/4 inch or larger, rivet hot enough to set. I recommend an oxygen acetylene torch. Same applies to propane.
I don't know how a mig could be used other than to weld the rivet in place.
Despite the vintage films showing bridges being built, heat the rivet in place, not before.
Body rivets, floor pan, etc should be set cold. My concern is that excess heat can warp the sheet metal.
Whatever you are doing, bolt it together and get it aligned, remove one bolt at a time and replace with a rivet.
I have never seen a hardware list with rivet applications. I'd love to see one for Model A.
More info at http://www.bigflatsrivet.com/install.html
Consulting available at 607 562 3501.
Jim Dix
Big Flats Rivet Co.

[Don/WI]

Originally Posted by Aerocraft

It has been my experience that cold setting the smaller diameter "body" rivets works better with a long stroke 4X gun. The rivets do work harden as they are driven so the lighter blows of the short guns may harden the rivet before it is set.

I would be careful using any torch and not heat the surrounding body sheet metal. A third set of hands might be helpful to heat the rivet by itself, place it in the hole, and then have two other workers drive the rivet.

If you also have to drive frame rivets it is much better to heat them red hot prior to driving. I heat the rivet in place and then drive with a 4X gun. A Mapp torch should work well although I personally prefer my oxy/act gas torch.

Suppliers such as Bratton's have the correct size rivets.

Gar Williams

What is a long stroke "4X gun"? Thanks. Don/WI

[Doug in NJ]

You could use a TIG (not MIG) welder to heat rivets.

Doug

[Aerocraft]

Don: Here is a link to a video that should explain a 4X gun. The longer stroke makes it more powerful since the sliding hammer has more length to accelerate. I also like it since by "feathering" the trigger I can do a better job of controlling the setting when I am using small (1/8" & 3/32") aircraft rivets on light gauge (.016" & .020") aircraft aluminum as I reskin aircraft components.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ascL8MDv3Rw

Gar Williams

[lindy williams]

Any solid steel rivet bigger than 3/16 inch is too big to set cold. Even 3/16 inch subrail and floor pan rivels take a large bucking bar and powerful pneumatic rivet gun with a hardened waffle tool. No harbor freight rivet guns for this job.

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by shamas

I have never seen a hardware list with rivet applications. I'd love to see one for Model A.
More info at http://www.bigflatsrivet.com/install.html
Consulting available at 607 562 3501.
Jim Dix
Big Flats Rivet Co.

Sir,...that would be X 2

[mass A man]

I would think many Model A riveting jobs, done cold, would most likely warp or disfigure the surrounding area sheet metal. As a shade tree mechanic, my friend heats the rivet tip fast, with a small pointy flame with my oxy/acet. torch, I buck the head of the rivet with a hefty bucking bar while he peens the tip with just a few blows of the hammer. This works very well and goes very fast. Many of the rivets were found locally at my ACE hardware store, exactly like the ones the vendors sell.

[juke joint johnny]

Gar ,
Would you use that 4x gun on frame rivets ie front cross member or revert to the air hammer & oxy acetyline torch?

John Cochran

[California Charlie]

All the floor sheet metal, some frame, etc.

[Aerocraft]

John: I use the 4X gun on all the rivets in the Model A. As Lindy said, every rivet over 3/16" is done hot. The last frame I assembled was for my '34 Sedan and I replaced every rivet in the frame. All were done with my veteran 4X and all the rivets were heated red hot with my Oxy/act torch. As an aside, the gun is stamped "USN" and was given to me by a Navy WWII vet who was a aircraft machinest mate.

Gar Williams

[tdlmomowers]

Any rivets that are set hot, must have the whole rivet heated so that the body of the rivet can expand as it is peened. If not, the rivet will loosen up in the hole.

[spike]

make sure you use a waffel head on your gun...you dont need heat on the rivit. it will look just like the orig and be tight. I think bratton has this tool and works great. good luck bud

[Richard/Ca]

Bigflatrivet Co. as mentioned by d.j. moordigian in the above post has a Model A rivet list.

[juke joint johnny]

Thanks Gar ,
It's a small world, My Dad was a WW11 US Navy aircraft mechanic ,

I have some of his wartime snap on tools but he never gave me a rivet gun.

John Cochran