Trying to loosen a seized engine

[The "A" Team]

Hi everyone,

My father left me his 1930 Model A Coupe, but unfortunately he took it apart to have the engine rebuilt and to paint it, but left it apart sitting in a leaky garage for at least 15 years.

Anyway, the engine has been sitting on the engine stand since it was rebuilt, and somehow, even though it's about 3 feet off the ground, the oil pan got water in it which made some of crankshaft, that was low enough to dip into the water in the oil pan, get some rust on it. The whole engine was pretty seized up too.

About two weeks ago, I removed the oil pan and started the arduous task of getting the engine to turn. I took off two of the connecting rods off the crankshaft and then sprayed WD40, engine oil, and rust dissolver in any and all joints. I tried an engine crank, but it wouldn't budge. I finally bought a socket and used a breaker bar to get it to turn. Every few days, I've been turning the engine with the socket and breaker bar while spraying all the parts with WD40, rust dissolver, and oil. Even after doing all that, it's still very hard to turn, and I really don't know how easily it should be turning at this point. I don't want to put it all together with the transmission, install it, just for it to not be able to turn over.

I attached some pics in a PDF. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks.

John

[51504bat]

50/50 mix of ATF and acetone instead of WD40 to loosen it up. My guess is that even if you get it to rotate freely it should be completely disassembled and thoroughly cleaned before reassembly. But that's just my guess. Others will have different opinions.

[The "A" Team]

I also heard about using mineral spirits. Do you think that would work?

Also, what would you put the mixture into, a spray bottle, oil can?

[johnneilson]

It is time to disassemble completely.
how did the water get into the pan?
Just a guess, but I would be concerned about the bores and rings in the pistons.
Just have been thru too many needing bore done from rust damage.
The crank looks pretty good from the journals we can see, open up the rest.
The flywheel needs be removed anyway to fix the ring gear.

A little labor now will be better than a lot of labor later.

J

[The "A" Team]

I really don't know how water could've got into the pan. The property does flood with heavy rains, but I've never seen water get that high. I was thinking there was a leak in the roof, but the head of the engine doesn't show any sign of water damage. I didn't even think water got into the pan until I unscrewed the plug and rust came out, and then I saw the real amount of rust when I took the pan off.

The rings and pistons look fine, almost brand new, which made me think there was no rust in the engine to begin with.

Do you think I should bring it to someone to get it cleaned up, or would it be way more cost effective to try and do it myself? I don't know how much it would run to have it done by a garage.

[1crosscut]

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Less expensive to do it yourself if you have the tools and the knowledge.
It does need to come apart not only to clean it but to check clearances etc...
To me it doesn't look like it has been rebuilt.

[The "A" Team]

It was definitely rebuilt, I found the paperwork and receipts with my father's other Model A stuff, but it was done about 15 years ago, and was sitting on the engine stand ever since.

[WHN]

The first thing I would ask is what are you looking to end up with.

Just a running engine? Or a rebuilt good running engine?

If the answer is a good running engine. Than I think it has to come completely apart. I really don’t see a short cut here. But I only like to fix things once.

Good luck.

[MickyD]

Since the engine is on the stand I would tear it apart and clean everything up and put it back together. Better safe than sorry.

[1crosscut]

Glad you have the paper work for it. Most times it is missing.
I didn't think it looked to be rebuilt based on the picture showing the oil grooves in the #1 rod. In the picture it looks as if it shows considerable wear.

[CWPASADENA]

Take it apart.

My opinion,

Chris W.

[Conaway2]

I just went through a very similar situation. - bought a ‘29 Sport Coupe that had ben stored in a leaky trailer for 35 years. A rebuilt engine was sitting on the trailer floor next to the car - head with plugs and pan were on the engine. I pulled the head and pan and checked bearing clearances with Plastigage. There was minimal rust. Re-torqued all the bearings, checked the timing gear and replaced the head gasket and started pouring Kroil down each cylinder daily for a week. The engine had never been run and was spotless inside.

I put a starter on the engine and began to spin the engine over (no plugs) for several days. When the engine would spin fairly well, replaced the plugs and found all cylinders had good compression. When I was ready to start it a week later, I poured about a quart of oil down the distributor hole, file the crankcase with 4 quarts of oil, mounted distributor, manifolds and carb and it started about. 5 seconds after cranking. It runs quite well now and I’mstill breaking. It in slowly, as I have lots of body work to do.

I suggest checking all bearing clearances, cylinder walls for scoring and the timing gear. If all looks good, reassemble and use a good penetrating oil (not WD40) to continue loosening the engine up. Connect a starter to help spin it over and get oil moving. Pour oil down the distributor hole to lug the main bearings and add oil to the crankcase. Try to start it when you feel the engine is free enough. Shut it down immediately if you hear any knocking.

Good luck - Jim

[chap52]

Just went back and looked at the pictures. Tear it apart. Better now while it on the stand. Were there spark plugs in the holes while it was sitting? Figure out how to keep it dry.
At one time many years ago (53) I rolled my Harley onto a shower curtain in my living room and rebuilt it. I was single then.
If I tried that again I would be single again...LOL Chap

[McMimmcs]

Originally Posted by chap52

Just went back and looked at the pictures. Tear it apart. Better now while it on the stand. Were there spark plugs in the holes while it was sitting? Figure out how to keep it dry.
At one time many years ago (53) I rolled my Harley onto a shower curtain in my living room and rebuilt it. I was single then.
If I tried that again I would be single again...LOL Chap

That is very funny !

[rich b]

I guess I would take it further apart; pull the head and pistons and check the bores and rings. Pull the crank and check the mains. Check the cam, lifters, and valves to see if you need to do anything there. Polish the crank, clean everything up, and reassemble it.

A Model A engine is relatively simple and besides being the smart thing to due; it would be a good learning experience.

[jack backer]

It’s cheap to disassemble, check and reassemble a fresh engine. It can get expensive forcing seized parts.

[rotorwrench]

There are four major concerns when the engine is hard to turn. Bottom end journal corrosion of the crankshaft, corrosion of the cylinder walls, corrosion of cam bearing interface, and corrosion of valve train bearing interface. Oil pump internal corrosion is less likely but it's at the bottom of the pan. A person should pop the dipper tray out of the oil pan and repair any corrosion down in there.

The cylinder head, valve chamber cover & oil pipe, front timing covers, and any oil pump/distributor drive components should be removed and scrutinized for condition and serviceability. This way the moving assemblies can be properly checked for condition. Some light corrosion can be removed by basic cleaning but heavy corrosion is going to take some elbow grease. The corrosion on the flywheel cover parting flange should be thoroughly cleaned off and evaluated. Same with the cylinder deck and all other gasket parting surfaces. Take a good look and the timing gears for condition. A fiber cam gear can crack if the cam was a bit too stiff during initial turning of the rotating components.

Your going to have to purchase new gaskets but it's well worth it to keep whats supposed to be inside there from leaking out. I would replace every one of them.

You don't have to remove the crankshaft to check journals but the main and rod caps should be removed one at a time and clearance checked along with a good visual inspection. If I rotate the crank after a long slumber, the first thing I do is inject oil down into the ports that feed the mains from the valve chamber. The rods need oil too but it can be injected through the dipper tubes on the bottom of the big end caps since it's on a stand. If the babbitt was redone then it should have around 0.0015" clearance or no less than 0.001". If it is that tight or tighter then it would explain stiffness when turning if all else is in good condition. Keep careful tabs on shims so as to get it all back right if things are within specs.

The valves love to stick in the guides and it can take a while to free them up. If there is much of any corrosion on the stems then they should come out to be cleaned up and checked for pitting.

If the cylinder walls have light corrosion that comes off with turning it through then leave the pistons in. If there is pitting and a bit heavier corrosion then the cylinders should be re-honed unless there is deep pockets of pitting in there. Heavy corrosion would require a re-bore & new piston assemblies to fit. Use good common sense on this. You don't want a bug-o-fogger motor spewing blue smoke everywhere.

If there is any procedure you're unsure of, just ask folks on here. You'll find many who are willing to help out with answers. You might check around your area for a local MARC or MAFCA chapter near you. Model A folks love to help out when they can.

[ronn]

If I tried that again I would be single again...LOL Chap


not always a bad place to be....

[The "A" Team]

Great advice everyone. I guess I was hoping I'd find a solution without a total teardown, but that looks like the direction I'm heading.

Like you said, it is a fairly simple engine and shouldn't take forever to disassemble and reassemble.

Thank you very much!

[jack backer]

Look at it this way, you will be confident it is correct. Sort the entire car out and you’ll find out how reliable and tough they actually are.