Yblock valves

[Habusailor]

Were the valve seats on a 1957 yblock hardened? I have one it was advertised as a 312 but my bet is it’s a 292.


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[darrell]

no early engines that i know of had hard seats.you dont need them anyway.

[56sedandelivery]

Hardened valve seats were to prevent erosion due to the lack of lead in the gas. Why would you not need them for that reason?

[darrell]

you can go 100,000 without them and many have.the y block book by charles morris has this to say quote do you need hardened seats.there are probably many viable arguments for installing hardened seats in cylinder heads,particularly since the abolition of leaded fuels and their lubricating properties.i have not found a need for for hardened seats in any of the engines i have assembled since the advent of unleaded fuel and i have not suffered any ill effectsbecause of it.end quote.its little more than a racket that wouldnt quit.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by Habusailor

Were the valve seats on a 1957 yblock hardened? I have one it was advertised as a 312 but my bet is it’s a 292.

No hardened valve seats.
Is it a 312 or a 292?
The original 312's have an aspirin sized dot on the rear flange of the crankshaft,
and ECZ main bearing caps.
Photos attached.

http://ford-y-block.com/identify312.htm

http://ford-y-block.com/crankshaftid.htm

Is it really a '57 engine?
Look for the engine block casting number on this chart...

http://ford-y-block.com/Block%20identification.htm
.

[mercman from oz]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Very helpful information on these 312 Y Block engines.

[KULTULZ]

Everything you need to know concerning hardened exhaust valve seats -

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...s-valve-seats/

Please feel free to take notes as there may be a pop quiz later in the week ...

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

No hardened valve seats.
Is it a 312 or a 292?
The original 312's have an aspirin sized dot on the rear flange of the crankshaft,
and ECZ main bearing caps.
Photos attached.

http://ford-y-block.com/identify312.htm

http://ford-y-block.com/crankshaftid.htm

Is it really a '57 engine?
Look for the engine block casting number on this chart...

http://ford-y-block.com/Block%20identification.htm
.

I have a Fairlane 500. A 292 punched out to 312 is not the same engine as the Thunderbird Special 312. when you say "it's got the 312 in it", if a person dos not qualify that statement I think it's a person telling a lie. I keep trying to tell people that, and you just can't get it through their head. The caps, the block, the crank, the cam, the list goes on and on...

[darrell]

another thing nobody talks about maybe theyve solved this is seats coming loose.i know people who woundnt use a head with seats for this reason.i took a 272 apart that ate one.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Gene F

I have a Fairlane 500. A 292 punched out to 312 is not the same engine as the Thunderbird Special 312. when you say "it's got the 312 in it", if a person dos not qualify that statement I think it's a person telling a lie. I keep trying to tell people that, and you just can't get it through their head. The caps, the block, the crank, the cam, the list goes on and on...

You are correct, but ...

The 292 and 312 uses the same block and heads (heads may be different according to assembly detail).

The 292 is preferable (IMO) with a 312 crank (stroker kit) as the 312 block received different machining protocols which led to problems such as cam tunnel bore sloppiness and rear seal problems..

[Gene F]

I did not know that.

[Habusailor]

Thanks I will check the engine casting number, it will give me some clues. I don’t have the engine or tranny out so can’t check the crank or caps.

It smokes like a diesel when it starts after sitting overnight or longer. After the cloud is gone minimal if any smoke from exhaust. It doesn’t use much oil so I don’t suspect the rings but I am thinking valve seats are gone causing sloppy valves. I will do compression check sometime soon. Any other suggestions are welcome.


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[Gene F]

I had a 305 Chevy once that had a bunch of oil flakes in the heads from Quaker State. I pulled the valve covers off, and cleaned the heads. Rana coat hanger down the oil return ports. Smoking cleared up. One of the perrils of buying a used car I guess.

[KULTULZ]

It smokes like a diesel when it starts after sitting overnight or longer. After the cloud is gone minimal if any smoke from exhaust. It doesn’t use much oil so I don’t suspect the rings but I am thinking valve seats are gone causing sloppy valves.

It sounds like oil is puddling in the cylinder heads (poor oil return) and flooding the valve stem seals at START. Once the pudding is lowered, it will visibly not smoke.

Reading the spark plugs will give an indication of excess oil usage.

Run the car in 1st and 2nd and then let off the fuel. If she smokes badly then suspect valve stem seals/stem guides.

ADDENDUM - (Fr.)

I will do compression check sometime soon

A compression test may not find a bad oil ring as the compression rings may still be good. You need to perform a leak-down test and spark plug reading.

What shape is the crankcase ventilation system in?

[55blacktie]

Ted Eaton (eatonbalancing.com) routinely installs hardened exhaust-valve seats when rebuilding engines. He doesn't take shortcuts because he backs his work. If your car is seldom driven, hardened seat are not necessary, as long as your existing seats are in good condition. However, I will have hardened seats installed when my engine is rebuilt. I want it done right the last time.

[55blacktie]

Great photos!

[JimNNN]

Is there any truth to the notion that Marvel Mystery Oil or lead substitute in the gas will help valve seats (in an old non-hardened engine) last longer? I'm talking about light/standard driving, not thrashing.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by JimNNN

Is there any truth to the notion that Marvel Mystery Oil or lead substitute in the gas will help valve seats (in an old non-hardened engine) last longer? I'm talking about light/standard driving, not thrashing.

You know something (and the following is IMO), there is so much conflicting theory and the differences in periods of engines and metallurgy that the only person I would trust with an answer is TED EATON.

On an engine of this period, it would also depend on what modifications the engine has received over the years.

[Ford blue blood]

Got to jump in here. The 351C in my street rod has 147K I put on it. It came out of a 72 Ranchero, got a "rattle can" overhaul and was put in the car and run. I have no idea how many miles were on the engine when I got it from a wrecking yard in 74. No engine problems what ever. It has made several trips from Norfolk, VA to WI over the years.

[craig]

The hard valve seat issue pops up on this forum every year or two. Everyone has their own opinion, so I'll throw in mine.

First, I ran an automotive machine shop for about 25 years, starting in the early 70's, and yes, we installed many stelllite or hard exhaust seats in early car engines. Not just because of the lack of lead scare, but because most of the cast in seats were sunk and distorted because the valve guides were shot and the valves walked around, hammering out the seats. SBC's from the 50's and 60's are famous for this. Y block Fords weren't as tough on guides, but both the intake and exhaust seats were intenionally cut low to begin with, so we usually replaced both just to get the valves up. Starting around 1971, Ford, along with most other manufacturers, flame hardened the ex. seats, partially to deal with the lower lead content in the gas, but also in hopes of less cracking in the seats. Bill's 351C is an example of this process.

Actual hard seats were installed by the factories for various applications on some engines. All FT series (truck FE's) came with stellite ex. seats and 7/16 valve stems. Most of the industrial flatheads and a few car blocks in the late 40's came with pressed in hard seats as well. I remember rebuilding a 1958, original owner Ford C700 (COE) with an 292 HD engine. It also had facory installed hard ex. seats. The issue with a seat popping out isn't as common as some believe. It can happen from an improper installation, but more often than not, the engine has been overheated or the head cracked.

Todays gas, even ethanol, is much better than the stuff in 1975. The average Y block, flathead or early sbf owner probably won't have a problem with seats/valves if they start out with good valve guides and the valve stems aren't worn out and they are properly ground.

[KULTULZ]

THANX! for that info craig.

Like I said, there are so many years and designs that it is hard to focus on fifties tech.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by Habusailor

Thanks I will check the engine casting number, it will give me some clues. I don’t have the engine or tranny out so can’t check the crank or caps.
...

If you lift the car and remove the lower bellhousing inspection cover, then turn the engine over with a remote start switch (and have a good work light) the dot on the crank flange can usually be seen.
I've been told it's easier on a manual transmission car than with an automatic, but fairly possible.

[Patrick brophy]

I had my heads done when I lived in New Jersey by a friend
in a raceshop.
When I moved down here to Alabama I encountered several people who were car collectors, and they had a million questions about the engine rebuilding that I had just completed.
The valves were one of the topics. They hammered me for weeks about not putting in the hardened valve seats etc. It got so bad that I went to a local machine shop run by by a bunch of oldtimers.
I explained what I wanted to do,and requested a price for the work and the cost of the part required to do the job.
The fellow who was dealing with me pulled his glasses down to the tip of his nose and asked me "how old are you?" I told him,I was in my sixties. He asked if I was going to drive the car on weekends shows etc.i said yes.
He told me to just drive the damn car,the valves will out last you,than turned and walked away.
That was the end of the valve controversy.

[Gene F]

Patrick, I bet you are gonna be just fine.

[KULTULZ]

I’ll add that without the hardened seats, valve guide wear increases significantly which ends up just costing more in the long run. If it’s a vehicle that’s just being driven 2500 miles a year or less, then the cost of hardened seats my not be justified depending upon your budget. 70K miles on unleaded fuel without hardened seats seems to be the record here with 35-40K miles being the average where the heads must be pulled again and worked on. At that point, most customers simply opt to go with the hardened seats and never look at the inside of their engines again.

TED EATON - http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic31944.aspx