New block, a further discussion

[Ol' Ron]

While in dream world. I'd like to see the spark plug moved to the transfer area, so we could get better gas mileage.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

While in dream world. I'd like to see the spark plug moved to the transfer area, so we could get better gas mileage.

So Ron, there is a Superflow flow bench within about a mile from my home. I believe if I build the fixtures I can get something "flowed" for reasonable cost.

I'm curious do you have flow stats for Flatheads with various port, relief and cylinder head combos? It would be nice to baseline off known data and save the bench time for any new configuration.

Thanks in advance.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by 38 coupe

I am not interested in new blocks. I have a couple in the barn myself (a lot of us seem to be the same). However, new cast iron heads with the "Denver" chamber and stock exterior would really get my attention. My personal request is for the 1938 only 24 stud head exterior...

I don't know that I've ever had my hands on a "Denver" cylinder head. Would like to see some detailed pics if anyone has some.

Do we know the story behind the Denver heads? Why they existed. Who designed them? What purpose did they serve? What specific vehicles did they appear in?

Anyone know the true backstory on those heads?

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

I don't know that I've ever had my hands on a "Denver" cylinder head. Would like to see some detailed pics if anyone has some.

Do we know the story behind the Denver heads? Why they existed. Who designed them? What purpose did they serve? What specific vehicles did they appear in?

Anyone know the true backstory on those heads?

Different chamber and compression ratio to help combustion at high altitudes.

I would also be interested in a set of these; especially if the spark plug location was tweaked like 'Ol Ron suggested.

[Fordors]

Uh, oh. Moving the lifter angles sounds like you are copying the big block Chevy method of enhancing flow.
Seriously though, that comes with other changes. The right bank will now open the intakes early and the left will be late unless cam timing is corrected on the lobes.
I am really an OHV guy, never built a flathead but here's something that I have thought about before. Say a guy finds an original Winfield SU-1A for an early f/h and he uses an adapter to run it with his 8BA block and ignition system. Does anybody check the difference in camshaft events and is it enough to matter? If I check cam timing events on no. 1 and then check no. 6 won't I see them different because the lifter angle was changed in the later block, or "rotated up" as Andy put it? Or am I just looking at that all wrong?

[Henry Floored]

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Originally Posted by Fordors

Uh, oh. Moving the lifter angles sounds like you are copying the big block Chevy method of enhancing flow.
Seriously though, that comes with other changes. The right bank will now open the intakes early and the left will be late unless cam timing is corrected on the lobes.
I am really an OHV guy, never built a flathead but here's something that I have thought about before. Say a guy finds an original Winfield SU-1A for an early f/h and he uses an adapter to run it with his 8BA block and ignition system. Does anybody check the difference in camshaft events and is it enough to matter? If I check cam timing events on no. 1 and then check no. 6 won't I see them different because the lifter angle was changed in the later block, or "rotated up" as Andy put it? Or am I just looking at that all wrong?

You are 100% right. In the case of this discussion I don't think it would add a great deal of cost to the bottom line. We are talking about adjusting timing events intake to exhaust. I'm no cam grinder but that doesn't seem like that's an expensive hurdle.

So to sum it up, the cost of a camshaft which is an expense in almost every build. Not much else changes as far as what you'd have to buy. Even the current crop of cyl heads would be fine. The exception being the normal valve to head clearancing which is normal procedure in the higher lift cam builds.

[Fordors]

I guess I gave the wrong impression with my initial comment, I completely agree that the cam change is no big deal. I hi-jacked your thread by asking my question about early/late cam adaptations.

[Ol' Ron]

In the combustion chamber there is an area known as the " transfer area" This area can be considered as part of the ports. It has an angle in which air/fuel enters the cylinder. The angle, shape and length along with the exit angle determines the CR as well as the flow cheristics of the head. By changing these dimensions and angles, you change the CR and air flow. The "Denver and most aftermarket heads just reduce the angle which raises CR but limits flow. When I was making flow tests I found that an 11/12 degree angle was best and is what most stock heads have. However the exit angle is pretty sharp and increasing it to 60 degs flow improves, Unfortunately this reduces the CR. As for the spark plug location. I would suggest that placing it in the transfer area and at the same angle would improve combustion and low the Octane number of the chamber.
AS you can see this is a complicated issue involving many things. I have some flow data in my book. However it in percentages as I couldnot get accurate CFM
Good luck Plese excuse the spelling

[aonemarine]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

In the combustion chamber there is an area known as the " transfer area" This area can be considered as part of the ports. It has an angle in which air/fuel enters the cylinder. The angle, shape and length along with the exit angle determines the CR as well as the flow cheristics of the head. By changing these dimensions and angles, you change the CR and air flow. The "Denver and most aftermarket heads just reduce the angle which raises CR but limits flow. When I was making flow tests I found that an 11/12 degree angle was best and is what most stock heads have. However the exit angle is pretty sharp and increasing it to 60 degs flow improves, Unfortunately this reduces the CR. As for the spark plug location. I would suggest that placing it in the transfer area and at the same angle would improve combustion and low the Octane number of the chamber.
AS you can see this is a complicated issue involving many things. I have some flow data in my book. However it in percentages as I couldnot get accurate CFM
Good luck Plese excuse the spelling

love to see some pictures of the combustion chambers if you have them....

[Ol' Ron]

Yes, I'll gather up a few. Have to get my grandson to post them

[Lawrie]

Are you saying that the cam from an 8ba would alter the timing if used in an early (36) engine
Lawrie

[Fordors]

In Post #94 Andy mentioned that the valves had been moved .090 away from the cylinders by altering the angle the lifter bores were machined on. From my experience as a budget (if there is such a thing) nitro racer the low buck racers will buy used parts. When buying a camshaft for a 426 Chrysler there are two lifter angles for aftermarket aluminum blocks, 45°, which is the stock angle and 48°, used in raised cam blocks. Just to be sure that a cam is in fact ground for 45° we always degree the cam , naturally using no. 1 cylinder and then checking no. 6. If they don't match then the cam was ground for the 48° or vice-versa. I know the flathead was not changed by raising the cam tunnel but changing the lifter angle had the same effect on the lobes, the cam timing is not as designed. I don't know how much the lifter angle changed, maybe it is not enough to matter but that 3° change in angle makes a big difference to our engine.

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

Excellent post, thank you for your input Andy.

I would like to ask you if say a new block is never approved for competition in any current vintage engine classes, would there be any reason why a racer couldn't just run this theoretical new engine just to get a "personal" record for instance?

If said engine could simply bolt into the same place as an original Flathead Ford what would prevent someone from running this engine in an "open" class?

While the SCTA will not allow a replacement flathead block the other timing associations ECTA and LTA allow the use of replacement flathead blocks on the East Coast. The French block is legal for the X class racers to use if they so chose. I was the guy who proposed this rule change to the ECTA and it was approved.
The last records I set running my XF/BGL Lakester at the Ohio mile was with a French flathead block turning just over 172 MPH the record set at the LTA event with the French block was 182 MPH. These records are the first ever set using the French block for land speed racing.
If and when a replacement block is produced there will be a place to set records and if its determined the improvements are an unfair advantage a class for the new block would be proposed and Im sure approved at least on the East Coast.
Ronnieroadster

[awelker]

I couldn't remember the angle change off the top of my head. Had to look it up.

They are rotated 0.72 degrees up on the post war motors.

[Ol' Ron]

How come, you can use aftermarket Chrisler Hemi and SBC and Ford blocks. Lot of them around, or nobody checks.

[awelker]

In the SCTA the oem blocks applies only to vintage engine classes and the fairly new iron roadster class. All "normal" engine classes that are simply cubic inch ranges you can do anything you want. It could be your very own design engine whittled out of a solid block of metal. All they care about is the cubic inches.

There are three main vintage engine areas:
- V4F/V4 - pre 1935 4 cylinder
- XF/XXF - Ford flathead V8 up to 325 cu in
- XO/XXO - inline 6 (pre a year I can't remember) and other brand flathead V8

[Henry Floored]

Guys this question is a bit off from our technical discussion but I am curious about this.

Would it make a big difference if this new "service" block would be a Ford product or at least a Ford licensed product?

Meaning when a buyer decides to install one of these in his '36 Roadster he or she can feel no qualms because this is still a "Ford" engine.

Is that important? I mean obviously the original design makes it a Ford type engine automatically but wouldn't it be better with Ford Motor Company involvement in some capacity, if only just a Ford certified product?

This is common practice today. A major car company will sanction a block or head in order to make it legal for whatever purpose they intend it for.

Now I'm not saying this is a racing part at all. In fact I hope it would become a reasonable option for a stock rebuild. But in my gut I think Ford badging would authenticate this for many if not all people.

[flatheadmurre]

Ford will have a big chunk of money for making anything official...and since youre not using the ford logo no real need for it.