Vibration - rumble

[Talkwrench]

Well back for the new year.. My pickup has sat for about 2 weeks while on holidays, yesterday took my daughter out for a drive and noticed that at around the 65 - 72 kph [40 -45mph] which happens to be our average speed limit it had developed a bad rumbling vibration. Today going to work its there an quite bad
So I need some tips on trying to pin point what it might be?
Ive tried clutch in and its still there except going down hill, not making a good noise either if I just cruise and hold the clutch to the floor [in 3rd gear] ..

[51 MERC-CT]

One thing I have done is put the rear up on jack stands and run it thru the gears.

[alanwoodieman]

closed driveshaft? sounds like the pinion is loose, rear coupling is failing

[Talkwrench]

Yes I'll probably have to get it off the ground .
The pinion and coupling has been in for a few years now , was a real good original Ford one, I had to tap it on, nice an tight.
Im starting to think , uni or a bearing? .. center bearing..? But the uni has been in for a year and I checked it , seemed fine?

[deuce_roadster]

What year is the pickup? What about a rear wheel bearing? If it was a front you would probably feel it in the steering wheel. If you are coasting down a hill turn the engine off and push in the clutch and maybe you can hear better where the noise is coming from. Does it change if power is being applied verses coasting?
Not flat spots on the tires from sitting is it?.

[Talkwrench]

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Its a 35 pickup, 37 engine, 39 box , 40 rear.
wheel balance is my first thought and I'll check for weights missing, just not convinced its that. Just recently checked front wheel bearings and king pins.. , I know Ive had play in the pins been like that for sometime. Rear bearings... Ok I'll check it.
Flatspots, mmm wasnt sitting that long and never an issue before, but I'll jack it up and check..
I'll try turning it off, see what happens I'll see if I can do it on the way home..

[ford38v8]

Wheel weights may be of the less reliable variety that use sticky stuff instead of the older metal clips. Tires also may separate internally, causing a bubble or other imbalance. It does seem to me that your speed would be slightly greater to have a wheel imbalance, but then, your turtle may be a mismatch to your gearing if that is so.

[Talkwrench]

Hopefully this link will work to the video https://youtu.be/OhTJ-4jFQpQ
The grinding rumble noise and vibration was still coming through clutch in or out at the specific speed . It seems like it was coming from the gearbox area while driving.. I checked the front end and nothing has changed there. Attached is a video, took the rear wheels off and it really sounds like the bearings. It does it both left and right, in 3rd gear also out of gear. It didn't appear to be coming from the diff centre / coupling area?.. Guess the sound could travel?? Anyone recognise the noise?

[51 MERC-CT]

Could be wrong but do I see bare metal where the drum safety bracket wraps around the drum? Possibly rubbing? Or even broken axle?

[deuce_roadster]

I would suspect a broken axle, and the external bracket/clip prevented the wheel drum and end of axle from exiting the car. Agree with 51-Merc-CT. If you take the safety bracket off you can probably pull the drum and whatever is left of the axle out. That bracket probably saved you a lot of grief. I am guessing the rear end needs to come apart.

[Lawrie]

If it had a broken axle ,it would, nt drive ,unless it has a locked rear end.
Lawrie

[Bored&Stroked]

That sounds like something in the brake shoes/hardware . . . doesn't sound "deep enough" to be in the rear itself. Anyway, that is my guess!

[deuce_roadster]

That hub turns awfully easy, is the other one turning the opposite direction as it should? I don't think I have ever put one of these rear ends together where going through the spider gears it turned with so little force.
Put the trans in neutral and have someone else turn the other side the same as you and see if the noise is different. If both hubs can be turned the same direction, the ring gear/driveline/u joint will be turning, might give you a different noise. The safety bracket is clearly rubbing on the hub pictured, so that is some of the grinding sound.

[Talkwrench]

yes I did notice the rub from the bracket, not convinced its sinister yet, was always tight. The corners I do going to and from work surely would have made it howl and screech if it was moving that much..?

when the wheels were on and I turned one side I did see the opposite wheel going in other direction, I dont suspect a broken axle[s].

Yes B&S it does sound like that, but it sounds the same even when Ive backed the brakes off, AND both sides? the right side sounds a little worse...? It dosen't sound deep in towards the diff center

[Brian]

Years ago in my 35, the RH rear hub [the bit the roller bearing runs in], actually broke right off the rear of the drum; it was the brake shoes carrying the weight. It was about 400 miles from home. I didn't know what it was at the time; I actually thought the problem was in front of car, anyway drove home like that.

[Talkwrench]

Its funny how you make it home in these old buses.. in 7 years Ive never failed to get home driving it. worn ring gear, collapsed countershaft bearing, support bearing in diff, poling stater motor, stuck float ..
Ive only put about 45 miles on it since changing the yearly gearbox and diff oil, nothing wrong with it? Even when I went out the first time it played up on the weekend I pulled 60 mph in second gear.. there was no big bang soooo.....

Guess I'll start by removing the drums and see what lies beneath

[35ragtop]

Rob,
I had a similar experience in my 38 pickup. It turned out to be the bearing behind the speedo drive. This roller bearing just pealed off the hardening . It was a repo bearing. I subsequently replaced it with a good NORS from Obsolete (Barnfind08). No further issues with that part at least.
Dave

[Talkwrench]

Originally Posted by 35ragtop

Rob,
I had a similar experience in my 38 pickup. It turned out to be the bearing behind the speedo drive. This roller bearing just pealed off the hardening . It was a repo bearing. I subsequently replaced it with a good NORS from Obsolete (Barnfind08). No further issues with that part at least.
Dave

I know the bearing I replaced it and the sleeve probably just over 5 years ago when I did the diff.... But as I go from back to front I guess I'll start finding it

[Bored&Stroked]

Do you have emergency brake hardware in the rear? Maybe some of that crap has come loose? Or maybe something with the wheel bearing or hub . . . just sounds like it is located outward of the axle tubes . . . but that is just a hunch. Bottom line, I'd pull both rear drums and have a looksie!

[Mart]

That hub/drum looks like a 32-34 to me. They're supposed to be used with 1.5" brake shoes. If you're running juice brakes they're 1.75" wide. I have that setup on my 33. The shoes will rub occasionally, especially when cornering. If something has come slightly adrift it will rub far more readily than with the 39 or 40-48 brake hubs/drums.
I ground some material off the outside of my shoes and it is ok 99% of the time.

Pulling the hubs/drums should reveal what is wrong and hopefully the fix should be simple.

As a side issue, I can't see that well in the video but if they are still there, you need to remove the nubs on that hub if you're running steels.

Mart.

[TJ]

Sounds to me like some brake hardware has come loose. Pull the drum and you'll soon find out.

[Talkwrench]

Well I didn't get a chance to pull the hubs yesterday , had to get a new TV

yes it sure does sound like brake hardware, but thats not going to cause the vibration and rumble at specific speed , its both sides and with the brakes backed off.. the hand brake still works..

Mart, well spotted, I would not have know the year of the drums and I think I understand what you mean about the nubs... Had a quick look at the vids again and it looks like someone may have already ground them a bit .. do they have to be completely flat?
Never had an issue with the rear brakes but I'll check that all out. Thanks for looking guys!

[Talkwrench]

https://youtu.be/1v3EGJh5k_8
https://youtu.be/M5MK1cBRIM4
OK a couple of vids.. Thoughts? Think that's enough to cause vibration at a given speed,? couldn't see anything wrong with the brakes.
The right side had lateral movement in it, you can see it. Guess it's why the the safety retainer was rubbing?
big thanks to Lawrie for the tip on getting the seal out without wrecking it.

[Talkwrench]

https://youtu.be/1v3EGJh5k_8
https://youtu.be/M5MK1cBRIM4
OK a couple of vids.. Thoughts? Think that's enough to cause vibration at a given speed,? couldn't see anything wrong with the brakes.
The right side had lateral movement in it, you can see it. Guess it's why the the safety retainer was rubbing?
big thanks to Lawrie for the tip on getting the seals out without wrecking them.

[Talkwrench]

https://youtu.be/1v3EGJh5k_8
https://youtu.be/M5MK1cBRIM4
OK a couple of vids.. Thoughts? Think that's enough to cause vibration at a given speed,? couldn't see anything wrong with the brakes.
The right side had lateral movement in it, you can see it. Guess it's why the the safety retainer was rubbing?
big thanks to Lawrie for the tip on getting the seals out without wrecking them.

[Mart]

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S'alrite, Talk, we're not deef!

I think that bearing might make that noise, as it fights itself to keep straight. Who knows?

Why not reassemble up the parts but put that bearing on the left and see if the noise transfers? Purely as a temporary thing, while awaiting new/better parts.

It might be possible to re- peen the rivets and tighten it up. I can't help thinking they should look shinier/slippier/cleaner than that, but that may be down to what grease you are using.

What are the axle and hub surfaces like? Is that grey metallic? Is something else failing?

At least you've found something that does not look right.

Re the drum retainer. it probably fouls because it is not designed for that model of drum. It would probably be ok on a 40 type drum for example.

Mart.

[Bored&Stroked]

What do the axle tube bearing surfaces look like and what is a precision mic show for both sides? I wonder if the right side is a lot more worn than the left side? I could see that bearing causing a noise - but the noise I heard when you were turning the drum sure didn't sound like a bearing . . . but who knows.

[Lawrie]

I can tell from experience that you will need a really bad rear wheel bearing to make a noise,I had to run one one in the 33 far worse than that ,I think from memory did two big trips total of about 13000klms.But, they made a scraping noise when rurning as the brake drum draged on the backing plat , but none straight ahead.
Look at the U/joint ,carrier bearings ,centre bearings or front drive shaft roller.
Lawrie

[Lawrie]

Rob I sent you some diff noise info
Lawrie

[Talkwrench]

Thanks Guys , Sorry about the multiple posts for some reason the site kept dropping out when I was posting, then caught up

The axle hub surfaces aren't the best pretty sure the right side has a more pitting, but I'll clean and take pics.
Mart the retainers I did have correctly spaced and haven't been an issue before.
I can measure diameter of the axle hubs B&S , any idea of limits? Also what about the depth of the hub..? Because I had that sideways movement in the bearing?
Lawrie I got the pics but have to work out how to see them properly?
I understand what youre saying , and Im not convinced either.. mmmm But there certainly is movement..

I suppose I could just try new bearings, if that dont work out it all comes

[frnkeore]

A quick question. With it on stands w/o tires, in gear and running, have you used a stethoscope on the rear axle and rear of the trans areas?

[Talkwrench]

Originally Posted by frnkeore

A quick question. With it on stands w/o tires, in gear and running, have you used a stethoscope on the rear axle and rear of the trans areas?

NO is the quick answer. I dont really have anyone that can help me, as in be in the car if I get under it [which Im not sure if im comfortable with ]
What I may do is replace the wheel bearings see what happens and then from there I know a few guys with hoists so I'll just have to drive there and give it a shot and have a listen

[G.M.]

When the U joint is out of grease it will make a big noise.
Put grease in and it go's away. G.M.

[Talkwrench]

Originally Posted by G.M.

When the U joint is out of grease it will make a big noise.
Put grease in and it go's away. G.M.

I did it about 8 months ago GM.. And I checked the uni when the new engine went in about a year and 3 months ago..Not to say that I could of shit itself in that time 'cos god knows I drive it hard..

Anyway latest is , I found another wheel bearing washed/ cleaned everything re greased and assembled..And now that noise is not there. Im going to take the wheels over for a balance today and then from there a drive, still not hopeful though.. Yeah the hubs were not good there was pitting in parts and also they are out of round too..

[Talkwrench]

Drove to work today.. F%*k ! but I did expect that there was more to it ..Aghh out it all comes...

[Mart]

Can you describe what it was like? Sounds bad from your comment. Worse than before?

Mart.

[cadillac512]

Hmmm. I also wonder about the u-joint area-specifically the bolt/washer holding the joint to the trans output shaft. If that backs out it sounds like Hell and vibrates badly. Been there!
Terry

[Talkwrench]

Originally Posted by Mart

Can you describe what it was like? Sounds bad from your comment. Worse than before?

Mart.

No its still about the same Mart , I did put my foot on the clutch as I was going along and it sounded from the trans area , bad rumbling.. [bearing] and still at the specific speed.
When I put the wheels back on I was turning them while under, no noises, just a bit of backlash..

Uni..? well it might be..

Might be a call out for some good bearings fellas.. I should do the center bearing if anyone has one ; )

[Talkwrench]

Well looks like we have a winner! After disassembling the gearbox as I was sure something would show up, nothing! it was just as I built it, uni perfect, so then onto the torque tube and the coupling again perfect, but as I took the tube off, out rolled the center bearing. Have a look at the video of the clutch plate and the movement in the hub..?? Can they have some movement, I checked my other clutch plate and it's tight..
https://youtu.be/LI5aMebu1i0.

[19Fordy]

I know the feeling and rumble. Gear oil dissolves the ruibber casing of bearing. Glad you found the problem. Don't throw away that bearing as there may be a way or re-encasing it. Also, that OEM bearing is very expensive and rare. Nice paper weight.

[Zeke3]

I have never seen a clutch hub loose by design. It looks like the center of the clutch plate may have failed also.

[Bored&Stroked]

You definitely need a new clutch disc at the very least (and probably a throw out bearing and for sure a pilot bearing). Hopefully the pilot bearing held together, or I'd also be checking out the transmission (due to the input shaft potentially wobbling around). I've seen clutch discs where the springs went to crap, but never one quite like your! LOL

[Talkwrench]

Yes I have another clutch that still in good condition so I'll use that , the pilot bearing is still good, and all the gearbox bearings good.. I will do the throw out bearing even though its only been in there a short time it does have some movement but I think its perfectly normal. I'll do another post on rebuilding the gearbox as despite all things being good and measurements ok , it was still popping out of second..

Does anyone have a link to installing the center bearing ?

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Talkwrench

I'll do another post on rebuilding the gearbox as despite all things being good and measurements ok , it was still popping out of second..

That problem is one that is not easy to fix (or absolutely know that you have it fixed). Charlie NY and I are of the same opinion that you want to have the best quality main shaft possible - with as little bearing surface wear on the front as possible (I found new main shafts - which are hard to come by these days). I test fit my main shafts with the front input shaft (with the caged bearing) - to find the tightest combination I can find (least deflection). Basically I put the front input in my lathe, add the mainshaft and caged bearing and then use a dial indicator to measure the max deflection as I wiggle the back on the main shaft. (Note - the lathe is NOT turned on!)

The other two things that seem to help are to re-bush 2nd gear with a very precision fit onto the main shaft - such that you can install it by hand, but it still has a bit of drag on it as you spin it. Make sure you have the correct "end play clearance" - on the tighter side of the assembled main shaft, 2nd gear and synchro assembly.

Lastly, add hard stops to the shifter top - such that when you shift to second, you prevent the shift fork from over-traveling past where it should. I've done all these things (and made my own cluster shaft) on my last two 39 transmissions . . . and they have stayed in gear in 2nd, even on heavy RPMs and wind-downs as such. If you need any more info, just PM me.

[Talkwrench]

Thanks B&S thats just the sort of info I need.. I will PM you soon and give you further info etc.
Thanks, Rob