Cooling, water pump modifications

[russcc]

Any real world experience out there with Barney Navarro's system of copper lines distributing water from the back of the pumps to the rear of block, or Bill Sinclair's system of drilling out the back of the pump with 1 & 1/16th inch hole. Barney & Bill stated the mods worked well. Looking for some experience & advice with either method. I will do the mods myself. Recommendations for Drakes, Carpenters or Skips pumps not needed. Thank you Fordbarners.

[Bassman/NZ]

No personal experience, but when I had a 230" flathead Plymouth, there were several guys on the Plymouth/Dodge/Chrysler flathead forum using the pipes to the back of the block method.

[Rand]

No help from me but...I'd like to know more. Randy

[Karl Wolf]

Originally Posted by Bassman/NZ

No personal experience, but when I had a 230" flathead Plymouth, there were several guys on the Plymouth/Dodge/Chrysler flathead forum using the pipes to the back of the block method.

Recalling Dads auto parts store and my experiences, seems to me that there was a stock original water distribution tube for the Chrysler sixes, cause there was a replacement marketed for those whose had rotted out...
Probably a Dorman product...

Karl

[GEOFFNZ]

Slightly off topic butYes, Chryslers overheated when the water distribution tube corroded.
Our flathead special has restrictors in the head outlets and every second pump impellor blade missing.Not sure if that's a good thing or not but seems to run cool enough.Cheers.

[G.M.]

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Originally Posted by GEOFFNZ

Slightly off topic butYes, Chryslers overheated when the water distribution tube corroded.
Our flathead special has restrictors in the head outlets and every second pump impellor blade missing.Not sure if that's a good thing or not but seems to run cool enough.Cheers.

Removing impellers won't improve cooling, it will make it worse in hot weather. The only thing this does is reduce the already poor flow of coolant. What the lower flow does is reduce the amount of water going into the top tank which reduces the water being lost out of the over flow tube. Once the water gets down to the level it will flow through the radiator tubes and will stay at that level. The problem is the engine is always running at a low water level. Low on water makes the engine run hotter. Not important in cooler weather but causes the engine to run hot in hot weather. You have a 22 quart cooling system not 18. As far as holes in the block and pipes running to the back I don't buy that. Skips pumps deliver almost twice the water through the block and entire system as stock or any other pumps available. You can easily see the difference or improvement with the use of a laser pointed thermometer. Use a house hold fan AGAINST the front of the grill or radiator and run the engine at about a 20 MPH speed. Test spots in the front, center and rear of the heads every 5 minutes and write the temperatures on paper. Also test the outlet neck from the heads going to the radiator. This is the only place that is really important, it is the final result of heat developed in each side of the engine. For those that don't know the left and right side of the block are two separate cooling systems connected only in the radiator. Both sides should run within 2 or 3 degrees of each other at the head outlets. The same test could be used for holes in the block or internal pipes. I don't think the holes will do anything and may be detrimental. The pipes may help a little in getting water to the rear of the block but more flow is the best sure method. The OD of the pipes through the front and middle areas of the block could reduce cooling in those areas. Regardless of the method or just in the stock configuration a pressure cap or Skips 3LB pressure valve is required to KEEP ALL of the water in the system and allow the pumps to force the water through the restrictions caused by the 144 3 foot long radiator tubes. The cap or valve also allows the radiator to be filled up to the filler neck giving the benefit of the full 22 quarts of coolant. G.M.

[blucar]

I'll repeat my earlier comments regarding the "old school" practice of modifying the EFV8 water pumps with all kinds of witch-craft solutions. I.E. Large washers in the upper hoses, cutting every-other impeller off of the pumps, etc., etc.
The majority of these old school modifications were touted by very famous performance builders of the late '40's. These guys were trying to build early 21 and 24 stud engines to run in highly modified cars/vehicles on the dry lakes of California. There was no concern about engine longevity, flathead engines were plentiful and cheap.
Because "so & so" said it, and the modification was written up in performance magazine of the time, the modification attained and after-life that is still practiced by many people..
A good friend of mine just recently built a flathead engine for a guys '36 pickup. My friend cut every other blade off of the impeller and put large flat washers in the upper hose's.. He did not want to hear my comments, he has been doing this for over fifty years... Of course the pickup is running hot when driven on the street to cruise nights at the local drive-in... Must be a bad radiator! Unleaded fuel! Etc.

[russcc]

No further ads for Skip's pumps please. The tube method was direct quote from an interview with Barney Navarro in Tex Smith's book. The hole in the back of the water pump is from Bill Sinclair's book, and was extensively tested. Anyone have a real world experiences with either of these methods.

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by russcc

No further ads for Skip's pumps please. The tube method was direct quote from an interview with Barney Navarro in Tex Smith's book. The hole in the back of the water pump is from Bill Sinclair's book, and was extensively tested. Anyone have a real world experiences with either of these methods.

My explanation wasn't an add for Skip. He don't need any adds, he gets about all the work he can handle from word of mouth from satisfied users. My post was to compare and explain the difference between the reduction of the flow of water and why they thought it worked and real life testing of higher flow. 1,000's of users and the results of more water flow have cured their cooling problem with more flow then any other method. This was also proven on the Lincoln V/12 engines. Don't forget when you make a post follow up posts ask more questions and sometimes the original question gets sidelined. I also submitted ways to test an old Ford engine for the results regardless of the method used to try and improve cooling whether it be more water flow, less water flow, big holes in the block, internal pipes, restriction washers or whatever. If you want true answers do the test yourself and find the TRUE results. If enough users try a product and 99% get positive improvements I think you can rely on that info. When testing you need known information like how many gallons of water a pump will deliver EVERY TIME and every pump in a time period of pumping water. I built a water pump test machine and can measure any Ford pump and get accurate information. When you see a stock pump produce 55 gallons in 5 minutes and one with an improved impeller produce 92 gallons in 5 minutes you know you made a change. Now put that improved pump on an engine running 200 degrees on both sides on the right side and that side drops to 175 and the other stays near 200 it's like night and day. Next swop pumps with the left and right and the left side drops to 175 and the right go's back up to near 200 and seeing the results you know right away you found an improvement. Using these test methods under the same conditions and outside temperatures is the only way to get proven end results. Making some sort of wild guess or things one thinks will work usually only work in the mind. I made at least 10 great impellers before the turbine thinking each one would improve water flow. Non of the 10 produced a gallon more than the stock one. A person can also try any cooling improvements on just one side of a flathead to compare with the other or stock side and see the results, good or bad. G.M.

[jimTN]

GM has it right. I will say that on 100hrs heads I have bored out the round water holes to match the gasket and block and it helped. I also believe in the exhaust divider wedges which have made a difference on the engines I have put them in. Cutting the flow of water is not good. A friend has a 40 cpe with a 59AB that heated and had thermostats in the hoses. We ended up drilling relief holes in those thermo's and stopped the heating problem.

[rotorwrench]

I think Barneys solution was more for the engines prior to the 8BA era. He was back into racing soon after the war was over and they were still using the older blocks. The 8BA had all the larger passages in the gaskets at the back so as to force the water back there a little more to aid in more even cooling. I don't think he would have bothered on an 8BA so much. He knew that more even coolant flow was a good thing and FoMoCo's solution was on the right track.

Most problems are still related to the condition of the radiator tubes and the thickness of the cylinder walls more so than how fast the flow is. Poor quality ignition systems also contribute in overheating. All this stuff has to be in good shape to have a cool running flathead. Thermostats helped for faster warm up and also helped slow flow enough in the 8BA era. When I was a kid, we never had problems with overheating unless a water pump got to leaking or the radiator needed rodded out.

[Pete]

Manifold distribution of the water has been tried in many forms. The idea is to get the same temperature water that is available from the bottom of the radiator to the bottom of all cylinders. Navarro's system worked well because it attacked the problem directly although it didn't quite go far enough in that it only moved the water to the back of the block which normally receives water AFTER it has passed 3 cylinders.
Here is a couple of pics of water manifolds on a V8 and a model B.
These are race engine applications.

[russcc]

Thanks Pete. I knew you would understand and respond.