1933 can't start after recent restart

[FrankWest]

Started my model B yesterday..aftee 20 years
ran great. Ran for one hour yesterday and One hour today. Nice solid sound. Today backed out of my garage and motor stalled.
Can't restart.
Thought out of gas.... Added more gas... gas in fuel pump.
While turning over I notice that the ammeter on tyhe insterment panel in not moving at all but dead stationary?
Could an electrical component have failed?
Did not check to see if i have a spark yet.

[rockfla]

A wise ole' mechanic always told me...."as long as we are talking, it takes two things for a motor to run, gas and spark!" so you know you have gas.........!!!! I'd check the points and accompanying resistors. Figure out why you have no spark!!!!! (if you in fact are getting gas)

[rockfla]

By the way, if the 33 you speak of is the picture in your avatar?? We have the same exact car too. What's the #of yours???

[DavidG]

Frank,

The starter motor electrical circuit is not routed through the ammeter so that telltale is not indicative of an electrical problem per se. Check for spark next.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Frank,

The starter motor electrical circuit is not routed through the ammeter so that telltale is not indicative of an electrical problem per se. Check for spark next.

the starter is operating normally and the engine is turning.

[Binx]

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I'd suspect something came loose like an ignition switch terminal nut or coil terminal.

Lonnie

[ford38v8]

[QUOTE=FrankWest;980291.......Did not check to see if i have a spark yet.[/QUOTE]

Next time you post, please tell us you have checked for spark.

[supereal]

Ignition points in long stored vehicle often fail quickly after a restart due to the oxide on the contact faces. If you have power to the coil, but no spark, or weak spark, the distributor needs to be repaired and set up on a machine.

[Planojc]

I think BINX nailed it.

[Hoop]

"the distributor needs to be repaired and set up on a machine."

If the points ARE fouled, why would the distributor need "repaired?" ... and why set up on a machine? It's a Model B.

[Mart]

I think Supereal was referring to a V8.

Just clean the points up and make sure the distributor rotor (or cam) is nice and smooth. It is true that points can wear quickly after long storage due to roughness on the rotor.

Of course it could be something else, but that is an easy thing to try first.

Mart.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Mart

I think Supereal was referring to a V8.

Just clean the points up and make sure the distributor rotor (or cam) is nice and smooth. It is true that points can wear quickly after long storage due to roughness on the rotor.

Of course it could be something else, but that is an easy thing to try first.

Mart.

Will do, thanks
It is freezing out here!

[supereal]

The machine reference was for the V8. My trifocals weren't working, I guess. Even so, be sure that the body and bushing is OK when replacing the points. The problem could also be due to a weak or open condenser, or a loose distributor mount that allowed it to move.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by supereal

The machine reference was for the V8. My trifocals weren't working, I guess. Even so, be sure that the body and bushing is OK when replacing the points. The problem could also be due to a weak or open condenser, or a loose distributor mount that allowed it to move.

NO SPARK!

Where can I find a photo of the key electrical components. so that I can check the connections. I have several ford books on the 1933, 1934
It was running beautiful and sounded like a new car and then just went.
I suspect something like the coil? is there a coil?

[DavidG]

Didn't I post one (an illustration, not a photo of the four-cylinder electrical system) earlier for you?

Coil failures are not unknown, although much rarer with an original 4-cylinder coil than with a V-8 coil of the same era, and you have a coil. The original location was on the upper vertical portion of the firewall, more or less in the center, on the inside of the car. It shows in a photo that was posted along with the above referenced illustration.

[Mart]

Frank, trace the HT wire back from the centre of the distributor cap. On the other end of it is the coil.

Tried cleaning the points yet?

Mart.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by rockfla

By the way, if the 33 you speak of is the picture in your avatar?? We have the same exact car too. What's the #of yours???

My car was manufactured in July 1933

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Didn't I post one (an illustration, not a photo of the four-cylinder electrical system) earlier for you?

Coil failures are not unknown, although much rarer with an original 4-cylinder coil than with a V-8 coil of the same era, and you have a coil. The original location was on the upper vertical portion of the firewall, more or less in the center, on the inside of the car. It shows in a photo that was posted along with the above referenced illustration.

I found the ignition coil and I will try to trace the wires.
But, my ammeter has stopped moving since the problem. Befire the ammeter was jumping around during starting and when the car was running. Where shoudl I look next if i find no loose wires?

[Planojc]

Check the connection on the back of the Ign. switch.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Mart

Frank, trace the HT wire back from the centre of the distributor cap. On the other end of it is the coil.

Tried cleaning the points yet?

Mart.

I took the cap off but how do you get to the points?

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Didn't I post one (an illustration, not a photo of the four-cylinder electrical system) earlier for you?

Coil failures are not unknown, although much rarer with an original 4-cylinder coil than with a V-8 coil of the same era, and you have a coil. The original location was on the upper vertical portion of the firewall, more or less in the center, on the inside of the car. It shows in a photo that was posted along with the above referenced illustration.

If that was you that sent that, I great appreciate it.... there was a photo of the lights fuse and a diagram of the electrical...It was great... I am just trying to find it.
I recently had my computer crash and I am using another computer....
I will check under the fuse question...I think that is where you posted it.
Thanks... It was great...The photo was exactly like my car.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Didn't I post one (an illustration, not a photo of the four-cylinder electrical system) earlier for you?

Coil failures are not unknown, although much rarer with an original 4-cylinder coil than with a V-8 coil of the same era, and you have a coil. The original location was on the upper vertical portion of the firewall, more or less in the center, on the inside of the car. It shows in a photo that was posted along with the above referenced illustration.

Here's you post! Thanks for the drawing! I greatly appreciate it!

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Planojc

Check the connection on the back of the Ign. switch.

will do

[FrankWest]

Still no spark
High tension wire badly crystallized and fractured
Replaced
No spark
New Development
Noticed badly frayed wires connected to battery junction (-) wire under steering
box in engine compartment. One wire comes from inside, Maybe ignition switch?) and another one to lights
May have eventually shorted as car was running?
I need some help in a picture of this connection under steering box.
I need to replace these exposed wires, but need to know what they are?
Any help will be appreciated.

[Chris]

The wires under the sterering box are for your lights and horn.

There is a single glass fuse on the backside of the dash, drivers side. Check it. It it is broke the engine will crank but no spark. Your problem is more then likley extremly simple.
If the fuse is good, get a test light and with the ignition "on", touch the point plate inside the distributor. If it lights up that tells you there is power to the distributor (eliminating the electrical on the switch inside the car)
If it does not light up, trace back and see where the test light lights up, and you will find your problem.

[Mart]

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Those ought to be the light switch wires and maybe the horn.

Mart.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Chris

The wires under the sterering box are for your lights and horn.

There is a single glass fuse on the backside of the dash, drivers side. Check it. It it is broke the engine will crank but no spark. Your problem is more then likley extremly simple.
If the fuse is good, get a test light and with the ignition "on", touch the point plate inside the distributor. If it lights up that tells you there is power to the distributor (eliminating the electrical on the switch inside the car)
If it does not light up, trace back and see where the test light lights up, and you will find your problem.

Thanks

Is that a 20 AMP fuse?

[Chris]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

Thanks

Is that a 20 AMP fuse?

Yes, I belive so...but it should say on the fuse

[DavidG]

Unless it has been modified, the fuse is for the lighting circuit only. The ignition wiring was not routed through the fuse originally.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Unless it has been modified, the fuse is for the lighting circuit only. The ignition wiring was not routed through the fuse originally.

This wiring diagram and the fuse function is confusing...are you sure the fuse is only for the lights.
This diagram is from the ford 1933/1934 restoration manual

[Mart]

Frank, follow the "Y" wire. The starter switch is fed from the battery, the yellow "Y" wire goes from the starter switch to the ammeter. Then the "YB" wire goes to the ignition switch. The ignition is not fed through the fuse.

All the lights are fed from the "YB" wire from the other side of the fuse.

The diagram is very simple, it should be easy to follow. I find it best to just concentrate on one wire or circuit at a time.

Mart.

[DavidG]

Mart,

Well said (follow one wire at a time).

[CC33]

As stated above, the voltage coming from the battery hits one side of the fuse block. The other side of the fuse block is the light circuit.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by CC33

As stated above, the voltage coming from the battery hits one side of the fuse block. The other side of the fuse block is the light circuit.

I have had that fuse blow 3 times since my car quit 2 weeks ago.
Could the generator cutoff be shorted resulting in a blown fuse?

[CC33]

Post a picture of your fuse block. Has any of the wiring been changed or moved around since you have been troubleshooting this problem?

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by CC33

Post a picture of your fuse block. Has any of the wiring been changed or moved around since you have been troubleshooting this problem?

No... and I think the fuse block is original... because I compared it with a photo sent to me ny someone on this forum under " where is the fuse"

THose wires under the steering block were badly frayed with exposed wires and bird caged vould these have shored out to the steering frame that may be positive right because of the positive battery terminal connected to the frame,

[FrankWest]

fuse box and under dash wiring

[DavidG]

If you have frayed wires, they are the #1 suspect in determining why you are blowing fuses. Nearly every metal part on your car acts as a ground and any bare wire in the lighting system touching a nearby metal part will blow the fuse. At least you know that the fuse-blowing problem is confined to the lighting electrical circuit and not caused elsewhere in the electrical system.

[quickchange34]

Do you know how to use a volt ohms meter and a test light. They will really help.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

If you have frayed wires, they are the #1 suspect in determining why you are blowing fuses. Nearly every metal part on your car acts as a ground and any bare wire in the lighting system touching a nearby metal part will blow the fuse. At least you know that the fuse-blowing problem is confined to the lighting electrical circuit and not caused elsewhere in the electrical system.

But this problem would not kill the spark right?

[CC33]

You would need 6 volts going to the starter switch, and continuity for the ammeter lead, generator cutout, and ignition switch, to start the engine and charge the battery. The ammeter, generator cutout, and ignition switch leads should all be connected, (common), at one end of the fuse block. That will be the "hot" side.
Forget the blowing fuse for now. That only controls the lighting system as previously mentioned. Just get the engine running, then plan on a complete wire harness replacement. It will eliminate future headaches. With wiring that old, it just isn't worth the time to try to splice and repair all of the worn and broken conductors.
Does that help?

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by quickchange34

Do you know how to use a volt ohms meter and a test light. They will really help.

yes
I have a cheap volt meter
I mainly us it for contuinity check but have also measured the voltage at 6.2 volts from my battery so I can use that.
a test light may be better because otherwise I have to hold the flashlight in my teeth.

continuity i understand open give infinite resistance.
Taking the measure readings gets confusing as to where I place the probes.
I guess from - wire to positive or the frame.

[CC33]

To test the continuity of a conductor, you are just making sure that the conductor, (wire), has a continuous path from end to end. Just place one probe of the ohms meter to one end of the conductor, and the other probe to the opposite end of the conductor. Look at the ohms meter to determine if you have a short. Which you should. It's best to have alligator clips on the meter probe tips for this.
If you do not see a short when doing this, you have an open condition in that conductor. (Broken wire)

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by CC33

You would need 6 volts going to the starter switch, and continuity for the ammeter lead, generator cutout, and ignition switch, to start the engine and charge the battery. The ammeter, generator cutout, and ignition switch leads should all be connected, (common), at one end of the fuse block. That will be the "hot" side.
Forget the blowing fuse for now. That only controls the lighting system as previously mentioned. Just get the engine running, then plan on a complete wire harness replacement. It will eliminate future headaches. With wiring that old, it just isn't worth the time to try to splice and repair all of the worn and broken conductors.
Does that help?

Sounds great, thanks a lot. I plan to replace. 80 year old wiring in the walls of a home are bad enough I can just imagine 80 year old wiring exposed to the weather It was amazing that this car worked at all. The motor really sounded smooth and quiet

[Charlie Stephens]

When you replace the wiring don't try and do it yourself using bulk wire from the local auto parts store. Buy a harness from one of the suppliers, it will be cheaper and better in the long run. See the archives for who is best and/or post the question.

Charlie Stephens

[ford38v8]

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Frank, Where are you located? There are so many V8ers out there very willing and capable of helping you get your beautiful car running, they can do it all or give you personal one-on-one instruction if you like. You just have to get that thing running, you owe it to yourself and to your Ford!

Tell us where you are? What city? We can help in person, but it's so hard by this long distance method!

[Mart]

If it is wired right, there is a problem in the lighting circuits causing the fuse to blow, and you are right, the fuse blowing would not stop the ignition from working.

Coincidentally, Frank, your coil is visible in the top of that pic. You were asking about that before. It may be worth looking at both the HT and low tension wires to and from that coil.

(I wrote this as a reply to the last post on page 2, missed the posts above.)

Frank, it's worth getting a "headlight" type flashlight that sits on a strap round your forehead. Very helpful when working in these out of the way areas.

Mart.

[Kerk]

I had a similar experence with a 32 ""B"" Wagon after a tour of over 1000 miles. The owner wanted the car moved to a different location before snow came. Started on a cold N.E morning som was letting it warm before moving it. As we wee taalging it just quit ! It turned out to be the condenser. justmy experience. Kerk

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Mart

If it is wired right, there is a problem in the lighting circuits causing the fuse to blow, and you are right, the fuse blowing would not stop the ignition from working.

Coincidentally, Frank, your coil is visible in the top of that pic. You were asking about that before. It may be worth looking at both the HT and low tension wires to and from that coil.

(I wrote this as a reply to the last post on page 2, missed the posts above.)

Frank, it's worth getting a "headlight" type flashlight that sits on a strap round your forehead. Very helpful when working in these out of the way areas.

Mart.

I appreciated your good advice before and replaced the HT wire because it as badly crystallized and insulation was off inseveral places and it broke as I twisted it. It thought that may be it.
But had to replace it anyway. Replaced the coil and condenser too.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

Frank, Where are you located? There are so many V8ers out there very willing and capable of helping you get your beautiful car running, they can do it all or give you personal one-on-one instruction if you like. You just have to get that thing running, you owe it to yourself and to your Ford!

Tell us where you are? What city? We can help in person, but it's so hard by this long distance method!

I plan to keep working on it.
I love this car!
It is 99%original and I want to keep it that way.
produced in July of 1933 it has special significance for me.
Thanks for all your help.
I will call in the experts if everything I try does not work.
I actually have a spare rebuild model B motor and trans too. I bought them
because I plan to drive this car until I die.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by CC33

You would need 6 volts going to the starter switch, and continuity for the ammeter lead, generator cutout, and ignition switch, to start the engine and charge the battery. The ammeter, generator cutout, and ignition switch leads should all be connected, (common), at one end of the fuse block. That will be the "hot" side.
Forget the blowing fuse for now. That only controls the lighting system as previously mentioned. Just get the engine running, then plan on a complete wire harness replacement. It will eliminate future headaches. With wiring that old, it just isn't worth the time to try to splice and repair all of the worn and broken conductors.
Does that help?

with ignition switch on
Have 6 volts at switch
6 volts at each coil terminal of brand new ignition coil
6 volts at generator cutoff
Test spark with spark/ coil polarity tester....NOthing lit up.
NO spark through Band new HT wire!!!!!
Looks like nothing is going thru my HT wire????
Could this new coil be bad?????

[Bob C]

I'd be looking at the points.

Bob

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

with ignition switch on
Have 6 volts at switch
6 volts at each coil terminal of brand new ignition coil
6 volts at generator cutoff
Test spark with spark/ coil polarity tester....NOthing lit up.
NO spark through Band new HT wire!!!!!
Looks like nothing is going thru my HT wire????
Could this new coil be bad?????

Unfortunately, unlike in the old days, a coil (or any part) being new doesn't necessarily mean it is good. Don't replace too many parts at one time or you may end up looking for multiple problems. I once helped a person start a Model A. It turned out his points were adjusted too wide and didn't close. Did you check the voltage on both sides of the points?

Charlie Stephens

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

Unfortunately, unlike in the old days, a coil (or any part) being new doesn't necessarily mean it is good. Don't replace too many parts at one time or you may end up looking for multiple problems. I once helped a person start a Model A. It turned out his points were adjusted too wide and didn't close. Did you check the voltage on both sides of the points?

Charlie Stephens

I will check now....should one point be 0 volts and the other one 6 volts?

[George/Maine]

If your points are about .014-,015 both, remove to condense wire and use the ohms scale. turn over engine and should see make and brake.
With the point wire off coil place meter there on volts. other end on battery neg.
should read about 5 volts if under dash resister is hooked up.
Also check the end of wire connector at coil make sure it not held on by few strands on wire.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by George/Maine

If your points are about .014-,015 both, remove to condense wire and use the ohms scale. turn over engine and should see make and brake.
With the point wire off coil place meter there on volts. other end on battery neg.
should read about 5 volts if under dash resister is hooked up.
Also check the end of wire connector at coil make sure it not held on by few strands on wire.

I pulled the hT wire out of the distributor and measure 6 volts with the ignition on.
So I guess the problem is with the distributor??

[FrankWest]

If I slowly hand crank the engine to see how close the points gets at the closest point and what should that distance be? 0.15 inch

[V8COOPMAN]

The points should close. If they never close, the car will never run. They should open approx. .015 every time a cylinder fires, and then close again. DD

[George/Maine]

I don't know why you put the meter in the high tension hole better stick our finger in there. LOL

Try this test.
Once you see spark then get the point working.
At the high point of lobe that's were the air gap is .015 get a feeler gauge.

Here is a simple way to check coil and condener.
Put power to coil make sure there are no broken strands end of wire.
Remove points wire at coil
Now put a condenser on coil lug terminal wire end.
Take coil wire out of cap and hold 1/4 to grd.
leave other end in coil.
Get a piece of wire grd one end and touch conderser.
When you make contact and remove should see spark.
Turn key on.

[FlatheadTed]

(1) with key on.
(2)HT wire removed from dizzy, held 1/4 to ground .
(3) turn the motor till points are closed .
(4) open and close points with a screw driver .
(5) spark should jump off the HT wire .

Ted

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

(1) with key on.
(2)HT wire removed from dizzy, held 1/4 to ground .
(3) turn the motor till points are closed .
(4) open and close points with a screw driver .
(5) spark should jump off the HT wire .

Ted

Will do first thing in the mrning!
Thanks for your help.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by George/Maine

If your points are about .014-,015 both, remove to condense wire and use the ohms scale. turn over engine and should see make and brake.
With the point wire off coil place meter there on volts. other end on battery neg.
should read about 5 volts if under dash resister is hooked up.
Also check the end of wire connector at coil make sure it not held on by few strands on wire.

Are you sure there is supposed to be a resister on the 4 cylinder? I don't believe there is one and I can't find one on the wiring diagram.

Charlie Stephens

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

Are you sure there is supposed to be a resister on the 4 cylinder? I don't believe there is one and I can't find one on the wiring diagram.

Charlie Stephens

No Resistor
If I have to set the gap between the points is that a simple thing to do?
Do I need a special wrench or only a screw driver?

[Mike B]

Frank,

I might suggest if you have never gapped points before, you should have someone around that has.

I appreciate your tenacity to do this yourself...but sometimes you really need a better trained eye that get things one the right track.

Good luck, and may she run soon!

[DavidG]

Frank,

Please don't go looking for a resistor under the dash or anywhere else on the car. There wasn't one on your four-cylinder car originally and there shouldn't be one there now.

[FrankWest]

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just hand cranked my engine slowly in an attempt tp get the points to touch..
They never touched... only slightly moved...approx 0.025 in

How much range of movement should there be? 0.015 to 0.0?
It may be hard to see the movement difference?
In one complete revolution of the engine should the points open and close 4 times?

Just curious... the car ran fine for hours several weeks ago...
Why would the points have moved apart? If anything after sitting dormant for 20 years you would think their adjusting screw would have been frozen solid??? Seems strange.

[4dFord/SC]

They're not supposed to touch--that's why they are gapped.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by 4dFord/SC

They're not supposed to touch--that's why they are gapped.

they are supposed to touch during spark and space after to gap. This is what ignites the gasoline

great site
http://modelabasics.com/Ignition.htm

[FrankWest]

New Discovery....
As I crank the engine my distributor Cam lobe is NOT turning! So the point gap remanin constant at approx 0.25! I hope the problem can be solved by replacing the Cam Lobe.....
Should I ask these questions on the Model A forum? This is a model B engine.
I believe the distributor is identical to a model A

[Bob C]

You may have a stripped camshaft drive gear
or less likely a bad distributor drive gear.
Bob

[4dFord/SC]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

they are supposed to touch during spark and space after to gap. This is what ignites the gasoline

great site
http://modelabasics.com/Ignition.htm

Oops! Scratch that–what was I thinking?

[Mart]

Frank, you need to pull the distributor to see why it isn't turning. It's more likely that the whole shaft isn't turning, rather than the problem being isolated to the cam/rotor.

Pull a sparkplug and watch the valves* as the engine turns over. Turn it 2 turns minimum. If you can't see the valves moving you may have stripped the cam gear.

(*I'm not a 4 banger man, can you see the valves through the plug hole, like you can on a V8?)

Mart.

[Charlie Stephens]

Take off the distributer cap and pull the rotor up and off. The cam is held to the shaft with a screw and if you are extremely lucky it has come loose (probably not). Try to rotate the shaft by hand (it shouldn’t rotate). Next you need to remove the screw in the side of the block (sort of a stud with a screw slot on the end with a lock nut) that holds the distributer in the block. After the screw is out lift the distributer up and out of the block. If you are lucky oil and a hard pull by hand will remove it. Be VERY careful if you try to remove it with hammers, chisels and screwdrivers. The distributer bodies are often stuck in the block and they are easy to break. They make a special puller to remove the distributer (try Bratton’s, (301) 829-9880). There should be a shaft coming out of the bottom the distributer held by a pin, check to be sure it is good. You can see an illustration of the distributer at
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/bdistributordetails.htm. If everything checks out so far remove the side cover from the block. You can turn the engine with the crank and see if the valves move (meaning the cam is turning). If the cam is not turning the timing gear is probably stripped. If the cam turns there should be a part that fits in a hole at the bottom of the oil gallery with a spring holding it in. Lift off the spring and lift it out. There is a shaft that extends through this piece that has a gear on the end that mates with the gear on the camshaft, check to be sure the gear is OK and pinned to the shaft. If you need distributer parts the best source is probably Renner’s Corner, rennerscorner.com, (734) 428-8424. Post what you find.

Charlie Stephens

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

Take off the distributer cap and pull the rotor up and off. The cam is held to the shaft with a screw and if you are extremely lucky it has come loose (probably not). Try to rotate the shaft by hand (it shouldn’t rotate). Next you need to remove the screw in the side of the block (sort of a stud with a screw slot on the end with a lock nut) that holds the distributer in the block. After the screw is out lift the distributer up and out of the block. If you are lucky oil and a hard pull by hand will remove it. Be VERY careful if you try to remove it with hammers, chisels and screwdrivers. The distributer bodies are often stuck in the block and they are easy to break. They make a special puller to remove the distributer (try Bratton’s, (301) 829-9880). There should be a shaft coming out of the bottom the distributer held by a pin, check to be sure it is good. You can see an illustration of the distributer at
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/bdistributordetails.htm. If everything checks out so far remove the side cover from the block. You can turn the engine with the crank and see if the valves move (meaning the cam is turning). If the cam is not turning the timing gear is probably stripped. If the cam turns there should be a part that fits in a hole at the bottom of the oil gallery with a spring holding it in. Lift off the spring and lift it out. There is a shaft that extends through this piece that has a gear on the end that mates with the gear on the camshaft, check to be sure the gear is OK and pinned to the shaft. If you need distributer parts the best source is probably Renner’s Corner, rennerscorner.com, (734) 428-8424. Post what you find.

Charlie Stephens

Will try..

Note! The cam lobe does not free spin by hand.. It move approx 5 degrees rotation but does not free wheel.

[FrankWest]

I have another distributor on my other model B engine. I guess if i eventually switch that and put it in this car I would have to re-time the engine. Right.
I plan to troubleshoot the distributor on my car but just in case I would swap it out for the other distributer.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

Will try..

Note! The cam lobe does not free spin by hand.. It move approx 5 degrees rotation but does not free wheel.

When you turn the rotor, which is attached to the distributer cam gear you should get a small amount of rotation because of the mechanical advance. You can also see this on your other distributer. If the rotor is not turning when you crank the engine you should be able to turn it around when the engine is not running unless I am missing something. Assuming everything is still in the motor, do you mean you can’t turn the distributer cam gear (which is good)?

And yes to your other question, if you replace the distributor you should also plan on timing it.

Charlie Stephens

[1931 flamingo]

Does the dist cam lobe turn when you hand crank the engine?? The cam lobe doesn't turn unless the engine is turned over. The lobe is fastened with the screw on top of it. BEFORE loosening anything turn the engine over with the hand crank with the dist cap off and see if the cam rotates.
Frank I feel for you, I can't remember there've been many threads by you but where are you located?? There may be a "A" guy around the corner from you who would be happy to stop by.
Paul in CT

[George/Maine]

I just looked at dist. and looks like the tang that drives the dist. is pined.
Its could be removed easy, practice on the other engine.
Also looks like points are set different gap in low spot.

[FrankWest]

The cam lobe does not turn,, there is some play approx 5 degrees but otherwise it see attached firmly to the shaft... so i am surprised that iy does not rotate when the engine is hand cranked. If the cam lobe was easily turn by my hand pressure then The shaft could be broken.

[George/Maine]

They have a contical advance that's what moves pull the dist.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

The cam lobe does not turn,, there is some play approx 5 degrees but otherwise it see attached firmly to the shaft... so i am surprised that iy does not rotate when the engine is hand cranked. If the cam lobe was easily turn by my hand pressure then The shaft could be broken.

Frank,

Bases on this I would think that you may have stripped the timing gear. Remove the timing pin and see if the timing gear turns when you turn the engine over by hand.

Charlie Stephens

[DavidG]

Frank,

As mentioned above, you should be able to rotate the distributor cam by about five degrees as you have done as a Model B distributor has centrifical advance, unlike a Model A distributor which has manual advance. If your distributor shaft were broken, which is highly unlikely, you would be able to turn the cam far beyond five degrees in both directions. The advice you've been given to check the fiber timing gear for sheared teeth is your next step. Replacing the timing gear on the front end of the camshaft is a lot easier on a four than a V-8, but a big project nonetheless.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

Take off the distributer cap and pull the rotor up and off. The cam is held to the shaft with a screw and if you are extremely lucky it has come loose (probably not). Try to rotate the shaft by hand (it shouldn’t rotate). Next you need to remove the screw in the side of the block (sort of a stud with a screw slot on the end with a lock nut) that holds the distributer in the block. After the screw is out lift the distributer up and out of the block. If you are lucky oil and a hard pull by hand will remove it. Be VERY careful if you try to remove it with hammers, chisels and screwdrivers. The distributer bodies are often stuck in the block and they are easy to break. They make a special puller to remove the distributer (try Bratton’s, (301) 829-9880). There should be a shaft coming out of the bottom the distributer held by a pin, check to be sure it is good. You can see an illustration of the distributer at
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/bdistributordetails.htm. If everything checks out so far remove the side cover from the block. You can turn the engine with the crank and see if the valves move (meaning the cam is turning). If the cam is not turning the timing gear is probably stripped. If the cam turns there should be a part that fits in a hole at the bottom of the oil gallery with a spring holding it in. Lift off the spring and lift it out. There is a shaft that extends through this piece that has a gear on the end that mates with the gear on the camshaft, check to be sure the gear is OK and pinned to the shaft. If you need distributer parts the best source is probably Renner’s Corner, rennerscorner.com, (734) 428-8424. Post what you find.

Charlie Stephens

I sent for the distributor puller from Brattons.
I plane to remove the distributor
But may look at the timing gear first?
Could that be stripped?
????
I talked to someone at Rennars corner, he said maybe the flange seared off the upper shaft of the distributor.
I guess the stresses of running several hours after 20 years dormant was too much

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

I sent for the distributor puller from Brattons.
I plane to remove the distributor
But may look at the timing gear first?
Could that be stripped?
????
I talked to someone at Rennars corner, he said maybe the flange seared off the upper shaft of the distributor.
I guess the stresses of running several hours after 20 years dormant was too much

You can check the timing gear by removing the timing pin and sticking something into the hole to feel the gear move (or not move) as you turn the crank.

Charlie Stephens

[Bob C]

I don't see how the Model A distributor puller will work
on the B distributor. I think you will just pull the top part
of the mechanical advance off.

Bob

[Charlie Stephens]

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Originally Posted by Bob C

I don't see how the Model A distributor puller will work
on the B distributor. I think you will just pull the top part
of the mechanical advance off.

Bob

Bob,

Good catch. I definitely dropped the ball on that one. I didn't realize that the shaft was the lift point on the current pullers.

Charlie Stephens

[FrankWest]

Thanks for ...........?
How do you get to the timming gear?
Is it really make of fabric/cardboard......Was Henry Cheap?

[George/Maine]

The dist should pull one if no rust, my guess the pin on bottom of dist may have sheared. Remove what ever keeps it from turning. Look at other engine..

[FlatheadTed]

The distributor keys into the shaft below it by a pin its a simple thing that often shears of ,You don't need a puller but there is a grub screw in the side of the head that holds it in ,loosen that off then use a bar under it and pried-d up .You can tell if the cam gear is not moving by placing the timing pin in the front cover timing hole and cranking the Motor .Ted

[DavidG]

I don't think anyone said that the timing gear was made of fabric or cardboard. It was made of a fiberous plastic called Celeron and it was likely more expensive at the time than anything made of metal.

With all due respect to the suggestion that you could inspect the timing gear by removing the timing pin on the front timing gear cover, all you would ascertain is the highly remote possibility that the nut retaining the timing gear cover on the end of the camshaft was loose. A far more likely cause is sheared teeth and that can only be checked by removing the two bolts holding the side cover of the timing gear and one beneath it through the oil pan flange (see photo below - the timing gear side cover is forward of the fuel pump and shaped something like a quarter moon) and then hand cranking the engine through several revolutions of the crankshaft.

[FrankWest]

I am trying to decide what to do next.
If the pin is sheared off the distributor shaft you would think I should be able to spin the distributor cam around by hand, right?
Have the timing gears been know to fall especially after 80 years...
this strange plastic/whatever it is made of could have delaminated.
To removed the cover on the timing gear do I have to drain the oil out?
I have been making a lot of choices so far troubleshooting and it seems like everyone was Wrong!
To remove the valve cover to see if the valves are working thereby verifying that the timing gear is working means draining the engine oil, and replacing the gasket with a new one right?
At Least I am learning a lot about this car, which is what I wanted...
I anted someday to be able to keep it running on my own.... The best way to learn is to do it.
If I bought a newly restored car, it would just sit in the garage and I never would have learned anything.

[George/Maine]

Its best to remove the dist and oil and set points, then check for binding shaft stuck and if you are lucky the pin has sheared on drive slot bottom of dist.
I would do the simple things first.
The has been story's of people taking the dist out and will never run again then you will have to junk it. LOL

[Pat/Ohio]

Frank,

Look at the picture that DavidG posted above, now read his post. He has clearly pointed out what you should do next. Remove the timing gear inspection cover (2 bolts shown in the picture and one under the cover that goes through the oil pan). After removing the 3 bolts and timing gear inspections cover, you can now crank the engine over a few spins and check the teeth on the timing gear. Very straight-forward procedure. Good luck!

[Bob C]

What is this pin in the drive slot? I can only think of two
pins and neither one drives anything. One holds the drive gear
sleeve and the other holds the sleeve on the distributor shaft.

Bob

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by George/Maine

Its best to remove the dist and oil and set points, then check for binding shaft stuck and if you are lucky the pin has sheared on drive slot bottom of dist.
I would do the simple things first.
The has been story's of people taking the dist out and will never run again then you will have to junk it. LOL

I can not take advice of someone who told me to out my finger in the High Voltage slot and then to junk my Car.

[George/Maine]

You have had people work on your cars for years and you should have learned these basics years ago.
You would be better to go to the model A section.
If the dist was locked and the shaft froze it would most likely shear the pin on the drive slot in the bottom of dist.
I,m not blowing smoke up your asxx.

[Bob C]

There is no pin in the drive slot.

Bob

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by George/Maine

You have had people work on your cars for years and you should have learned these basics years ago.
You would be better to go to the model A section.
If the dist was locked and the shaft froze it would most likely shear the pin on the drive slot in the bottom of dist.
I,m not blowing smoke up your asxx.

I was a physicist working for the aerospace industry, designed DirectTV satellites and countless other spacecraft, I had no time to work on my car.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Bob C

There is no pin in the drive slot.

Bob

You are right.
The original ford shaft consisted of two sections that merely fit into each other with a slot. These two sections were just dropped into place and NOT PINNED. I was told that this peg often gets worn and no longer fits into the bottom shaft slot .Aftermarket shafts were usually made one long shaft.

[Mart]

So what you're saying, Frank, it IS rocket science!

Mart.

[jim galli]

Post 100. When I originally read your first post 3 weeks ago, I thought to myself, oh, sheared the teeth off the timing gear. Didn't say anything because I figured that would be obvious to the folks here. Don't get discouraged. If 100,000 farmers and ranchers could take it apart and put a new gear on, you probably can too. But we still don't know if that's what happened.

[George/Maine]

Post 97
that's the wrong end the female end is in dist.
I don't know or ever heard of a dist puller.
If you are in a warm area like ca or fl you could use a pipe wrench to twist the dist out by now. Only you know what you have and ford made thing easy to fix not like today mass air senses were a bug would stop the car cold.
The dist can only go in one way so don,t take the joke to heart.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Pat/Ohio

Frank,

Look at the picture that DavidG posted above, now read his post. He has clearly pointed out what you should do next. Remove the timing gear inspection cover (2 bolts shown in the picture and one under the cover that goes through the oil pan). After removing the 3 bolts and timing gear inspections cover, you can now crank the engine over a few spins and check the teeth on the timing gear. Very straight-forward procedure. Good luck!

will do!
sounds like the best plan.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

I don't think anyone said that the timing gear was made of fabric or cardboard. It was made of a fiberous plastic called Celeron and it was likely more expensive at the time than anything made of metal.

With all due respect to the suggestion that you could inspect the timing gear by removing the timing pin on the front timing gear cover, all you would ascertain is the highly remote possibility that the nut retaining the timing gear cover on the end of the camshaft was loose. A far more likely cause is sheared teeth and that can only be checked by removing the two bolts holding the side cover of the timing gear and one beneath it through the oil pan flange (see photo below - the timing gear side cover is forward of the fuel pump and shaped something like a quarter moon) and then hand cranking the engine through several revolutions of the crankshaft.

where are these 3 screws? I have a model B I see this side piece with 2 screws and cannot see a screw below

[DavidG]

Frank,

The quickest way to teach yourself the basics of a Ford Model B engine is to pull up a chair and start to think thorough the function of each part aided by a re-print copy of the illustration from the period chassis parts catalogue shown below.

For example, you asked if you have to drain the oil to check the condition of the timing gear, but that suggests that you haven't looked at your engine, identified the timing gear cover in question, and then considered its position relative to the oil pan (where the oil is).

99% of automotive technology circa 1933 is common sense based. Nearly all the hobbyists that frequent this site acquired their knowledge before the internet existed and I'll bet that in nearly every case they did so with a direct, take-it-apart and put-it-back-together approach like the proverbial kid and his watch.

As the illustration is a composite of the Ford four-cylinder engine used between 1928 and 1934, you'll note some components that aren't on your engine or differ from what is on your engine. Once you've identified those by process of elimination or substitution, you're on your way. There is a separate illustration in the cited catalogue for each of the add-on parts to the engine such as the distributor, carburetor, generator, etc., etc.

At this stage of your education regarding your '33 four, you need pictures far more than words.

[DavidG]

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Please re-read the fifth line of the second paragraph beginning "bolts holding the side cover ......" Unless you're using a mirror or looking from beneath the car, you cannot see the 3rd bolt referred to from the top, but you can feel it by sticking your hand beneath the cover and feeling along on the flange of the oil pan. If the bolt is missing you will still feel the hole in the flange of the oil pan.

[Charlie Stephens]

Frank,

As a side note, save all of the bolts and reuse them. I know this would be a sin on a satellite. The bolts that hold the cover on (I assume they are the same as a '32) have a rounded head and are not available from the local hardware store with the correct head. This is typical of many things on the car.

Charlie Stephens

[DavidG]

Charlie,

With respect, I'm sure that you meant to limit that comment to the two bolts on the side of the cover and not to the hex bolt on the underside, otherwise Frank may think that the bolt underneath should have a rounded head. He should save that bolt too because it hopefully is the original with a thick flat head unlike the bolts available today at hardware stores which have noticeably thinner heads. (Except for the flywheel housing, front timing gear cover, water pump, water inlet casting and pipe, and front motor mount bracket, a '33 four is identical to a late '32 four in all respects.

[midgetracer]

Frank,
Do as David G says, but you have to also remove three bolts on the front of the timing cover to get the small side cover off. I am quite sure that you will find the timing gear has teeth sheared off. It is very common on an old engine. A good 4 cylinder mechanic can get the old one off and a new one on in a few hours, but it is a big job if you have never done it, but certainly not impossible for someone of your skills.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Mart

So what you're saying, Frank, it IS rocket science!

Mart.

a real skilled and experience mechanic is like an artist!
Someone who develops a feel for the machine, no just replaces parts.
Truly skilled people in any field are rare.
We seem to have more parts replaces today than truly skilled technicians.

I am new to the field and only entered it because I fell in love with these wonderful old cars from an exciting time the 1920's to early 1930's.
I really hate new plastic cars and have little interest in them.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by midgetracer

Frank,
Do as David G says, but you have to also remove three bolts on the front of the timing cover to get the small side cover off. I am quite sure that you will find the timing gear has teeth sheared off. It is very common on an old engine. A good 4 cylinder mechanic can get the old one off and a new one on in a few hours, but it is a big job if you have never done it, but certainly not impossible for someone of your skills.

This is a silly question, do I have to drain the engine oil first.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

Frank,

As a side note, save all of the bolts and reuse them. I know this would be a sin on a satellite. The bolts that hold the cover on (I assume they are the same as a '32) have a rounded head and are not available from the local hardware store with the correct head. This is typical of many things on the car.

Charlie Stephens

I always resuse the original bolts.

By the way, spacecraft are usually glued together...stronger than bolts and much lighter.

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

This is a silly question, do I have to drain the engine oil first.

No, BUT if the gear is stripped I would drop the pan to clean
the pieces out.

Bob

[DavidG]

My bad; midgetracer is correct. There are six bolts in total.

[Mike B]

Well, someone has to say this, so may as well be me...

Frank, as I mentioned before, I admire your tenacity to solve this on yur ow,

That said, I see in this thread, and your earlier ones, you haven't answered specific questions that could help you out, or give others offering advice, and better direction to lead you to a solution.

I really think you need to have a gear head come over and take a look at it, just to confirm what the probable cause and issues are.

You seem to be reluctant to tell anyone where you are located, and I'm not sure why...heck, you could have DavidG 2 miles away from you and in 10 minutes, eliminate 5 days of asking questions.

It is always satisfying to "fix it yourself", but sometimes a keener more experienced eye is needed.

Good luck!

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by jim galli

Post 100. When I originally read your first post 3 weeks ago, I thought to myself, oh, sheared the teeth off the timing gear. Didn't say anything because I figured that would be obvious to the folks here. Don't get discouraged. If 100,000 farmers and ranchers could take it apart and put a new gear on, you probably can too. But we still don't know if that's what happened.

Thanks for your encouraging comments.
I am stumbling along but enjoy the fact that I am learning and feel like I am part of the 1930's.
I almost bought an already restored car but I am happy with this 95% original 1933 ford because now I am learning about the car. My plans are to keep this car and use and repair it myself for the rest of my life. Tomorrow morning I will take off the timing gear side port to see the condition of the gear.
Strange, but I have many repair books and service bullitons but no show how to replace the timing gear/gears? Well I will see tomor/row.
Thanks again....

[Bob C]

Frank, You might want to get the "Model A Mechanics Handbook--Vol 1".
There are a lot of things that are similar, like changing the timing gear,
between the Model A and your 1933.
Here's a link http://www.brattons.com/product.asp?...=any&PT_ID=all

Bob

[George/Maine]

Do you have a spark plug wrench or a adjustable wrench.
A big step for tomorrow remove the spark plugs.
Now if the can turn engine over look and see if the VALVESS are moving.

[Bob C]

I think somebody forgot to take their medication.

[dean333]

George you need to keep it clean. A good idea is to take a remedial English class too. You try to give advice but nobody can understand what you're trying to say because of your poor sentence structure and lack of punctuation in the correct place.

[DavidG]

On my fours (and V-8s for that matter), the pistons are attached to the connecting rods, which are attached to the crankshaft, which when turned causes the pistons to move up and down in the cylinder bores. This occurs with or without the timing gear in place.

[FlatheadTed]

I think the question was wether the timing gear was moving or not as charlie suggested .Any one whose worked on a A or B motor would know that by placing the timing pin in the hole and turning the motor you would be able to tell wether it was turning or not .it would be help full for you to do this simple test .

(Quote )I Thanks for ...........?
How do you get to the timing gear?
Is it really make of fabric/cardboard......Was Henry Cheap?





(Quote ) With all due respect to the suggestion that you could inspect the timing gear by removing the timing pin on the front timing gear cover, all you would ascertain is the highly remote possibility that the nut retaining the timing gear cover on the end of the camshaft was loose. A far more likely cause is sheared teeth and that can only be checked by removing the two bolts holding the side cover of the timing gear and one beneath it through the oil pan flange (see photo below - the timing gear side cover is forward of the fuel pump and shaped something like a quarter moon) and then hand cranking the engine through several revolutions of the crankshaft.[/QUOTE]

[DavidG]

The problem here, Ted, is that the owner of this '33 has never worked on a car previously, let alone an A or B four. Your test is for someone who knows what they are looking for (or more specifically feeling for), not for someone who needs a book on this subject (one with a yellow cover and black printing).

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Pat/Ohio

Frank,

Look at the picture that DavidG posted above, now read his post. He has clearly pointed out what you should do next. Remove the timing gear inspection cover (2 bolts shown in the picture and one under the cover that goes through the oil pan). After removing the 3 bolts and timing gear inspections cover, you can now crank the engine over a few spins and check the teeth on the timing gear. Very straight-forward procedure. Good luck!

There are more than three bolts...there are 6 bolts because three screw into the side of the cover!

I removed these bolts and am trying to get the cover to com off. After 80 years ....I am trying to get the proper way to loosen it....

[Pat/Ohio]

Frank, Like DavidG said earlier...."My bad, there are 6 bolts" I too forgot the front bolts on the timing cover. Anyway, you found them. The gear cover should come loose. Perhaps there is a little gasket/gasket goop holding it on. I replaced the timing gear on my Model B motor several years ago (with the help of a Model A owner). You're going to get this thing...hang in there! Regards, Pat

[FrankWest]

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Originally Posted by Pat/Ohio

Frank, Like DavidG said earlier...."My bad, there are 6 bolts" I too forgot the front bolts on the timing cover. Anyway, you found them. The gear cover should come loose. Perhaps there is a little gasket/gasket goop holding it on. I replaced the timing gear on my Model B motor several years ago (with the help of a Model A owner). You're going to get this thing...hang in there! Regards, Pat

To remove the front lower front 3 bolts,,,I will have to support the engine with a jack and remove the engine mount.
I have Les Andrews Model A mechanics book.
I am on my way....Thanks for your help.

[Pat/Ohio]

Frank, Does your spare Model B engine have the timing gear cover and timing gear inspection cover on it? If the front of the spare engine is accessible...you could remove the inspection cover to give you an idea of what to expect after it is removed.

One thing leads to another when working on these old engines! You would have to remove the front engine mount anyway in the event that the timing gear teeth are sheared. I wish I still had my Model B engine (roadster) so that I could refer to it and help you better. Regards, Pat

[DavidG]

Pat,

The situation is complicated by the subject car being a '33. On a '32 (and super early '33s, which evidently is not the instance herein) with the 12" spacing between the front motor mount insulators those three bolts are removable without having to detach the front motor mount bracket from the front timing gear cover. Once the motor mount insulator spacing was increased early in the '33 model year it was no longer possible to access the lowest of the three front cover bolts without removing the front motor mount bracket (see photo below).

As Frank has pointed out, he'll need to put a block of wood under the bottom of the oil pan at the front to jack it up so that the motor mount bracket can be removed. What is relatively straight forward on a '32 is much more complicated on a '33-'34 four.

With apologies to Flathead Ted, I now agree with him that Frank should first try to detect movement of the timing gear by pressing the timing pin located on the front timing gear cover into the hole from which it is removed from. There's a shallow hole in the face of the timing gear that the round end of the timing pin will encounter as the crankshaft is turned. Several encounters with the pin bumping into and out of that hole would eliminate the timing gear from the list of possible sources of his engine's problems.

[Mart]

If Frank were to remove the plugs, would he be able to see valve movement?

Pin confirms gear movement.

Valve movement confirms cam rotation.

(Actually the second test would be better done first. No need to check the gear if the cam is rotating.)

Mart.

[FlatheadTed]

,We had this problem recently on a Model A and it was the tang on the distributor shaft .water had got in through the head .

[DavidG]

Mart's suggestion is a good one and a potential time saver as the spark plug holes line up pretty well with the inner edges of the valves. A well focused flashlight would be handy for this purpose.

[jim galli]

Spark plugs are right over the valves. Easy to see if things are happening there. That's a good suggestion. With engine turning over by starter if you do not see valves opening and closing, you can surmise that the cam gear is dentally challenged. Or worse, but that was the reason for the fiber gear. A weak link that preserves other more important things from getting broke. Plus they're quieter.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by jim galli

Spark plugs are right over the valves. Easy to see if things are happening there. That's a good suggestion. With engine turning over by starter if you do not see valves opening and closing, you can surmise that the cam gear is dentally challenged. Or worse, but that was the reason for the fiber gear. A weak link that preserves other more important things from getting broke. Plus they're quieter.

Will look into the spark plug holes before I began trying to take timing gear cover off. I took at easy bolts out... no problem...but will try to see valve motion before I continue...
Thanks everyone for your help....

This is almost like a soap opera...

[FrankWest]

I tried to see the valves....Can't
I think I would need something like this
http://www.harborfreight.com/digital...era-67979.html

I seemed to remember a long time ago that there was a fiber optic scope that did not transfer the image to video but was a direct view and sold for
much less. Today everything gas to electro-optical.
Not really needed here.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

I tried to see the valves....Can't
I think I would need something like this
http://www.harborfreight.com/digital...era-67979.html

I seemed to remember a long time ago that there was a fiber optic scope that did not transfer the image to video but was a direct view and sold for
much less. Today everything gas to electro-optical.
Not really needed here.

Frank, Don't spend any money on the inspection camera. It will probably be the only time you use it. As has been suggested, pull the half moon shaped cover off of the side of the engine and look at the timing gear. Be careful and you might not need to replace the gaskets that extend under other adjacent parts. Before doing that I still like my idea of sticking something into the timing pin hole to see if the gear is turning. Since the distributer is not moving you may have a situation where a lot of the teeth are sheared off of the gear. My suggestion won't tell you if you have a tooth of two missing or pitted but what you are looking for is to find if a lot of teeth are missing and the gear is not moving. What have you done so far?

Charlie Stephens

[FrankWest]

I removed the bolts I could get to...
Supported the engine pan with jack and slab of wood
Next step loosen engine support bolts to access the bolts for the timing gear cover
Just holding

[Charlie Stephens]

Frank,

Unless I missed a couple of posts somewhere (or there is something you didn't tell us) you still haven't found the problem. Did you check out the easy to check things mentioned earlier? We are in the dark since you don't tell us what you have done. You shouldn't be removing the timing gear cover yet, just the half moon piece at the side of the engine so you can see the teeth (part 6017 in the illustration contained in post #105). Did you try my suggestion about turning the engine and checking through the timing pin hole to see if the cam gear is turning (see David's post #128, he is now agreeing with that suggestion)? You would probably have better luck checking with something like an ice pick instead of the timing pin. Any chance you could find a Model A owner nearby and ask them to come look at the problem since it should be the same as a Model A?

Charlie Stephens

[DavidG]

Charlie,

With respect, he said that he can't see the valves through a spark plug hole in the head, so he's after the timing gear side cover. Perhaps with more experience in the future he will be comfortable with trying the timing pin approach. My experience with many fours is that the whole business of using the timing pin to establish the starting point to set the points is highly overrated and that visual confirmation of the position of the #1 piston is far more reliable as a starting point to set the points in conjunction with a timing light.

He's doing what is required on a '33 to gain access to all three bolts on the front timing gear cover that attach to the side cover (the removal of six bolts is required to remove the side cover as I belatedly acknowledged above). That access is a big deal on a '33-'34 four, unlike on a '32 because of the far greater width of the front motor mount bracket as shown in the photo above.

No harm will come from removing the timing gear side cover and doing so will define beyond all doubt the role of the timing gear in this "soap opera" (Frank West's words). I regret that my well-meaning contributions have elongated the script.

[dwaynec]

This is the cool thing about this forum. Many people with many experiences are trying to help, and the rest of us are learning.

It May be getting frustrating for Frank and there's, but we are all learning things we may not have without his questions.

[jim galli]

Too painful for me. I'll check back in a month to see where we're at.

When I was a kid I watched my grandad spend most of an afternoon cleaning battery posts. Something I could have accomplished in minutes, and I thought to myself, what could this man possibly do at work. He was Kelly Johnson's radar lead on the SR71...

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by jim galli

Too painful for me. I'll check back in a month to see where we're at.

When I was a kid I watched my grandad spend most of an afternoon cleaning battery posts. Something I could have accomplished in minutes, and I thought to myself, what could this man possibly do at work. He was Kelly Johnson's radar lead on the SR71...

Got the timing gear inspection door down, Timing gear does NOT move when I hand crank the engine!

Half the gear looks ok not chewed up!
Tried to move timing gear...seems attached with slight play approc 2 degrees either rotation direction.

[DavidG]

It sounds like the sheared teeth on the timing gear are next to the mating gear on the crankshaft itself, which of course makes perfect sense, i.e. no teeth, no engagement of the timing gear.

At this point I recommend that you not attempt to rotate the timing gear as you risk altering the valve timing, adding one more thing to your "to do" list associated with replacing the timing gear. The next step is to remove the front timing gear cover in order to access the entire timing gear to permit its replacement. (The other next step is to buy a new timing gear. They are same as that used on Model As and are readily available from Model A part suppliers. Originally they came in two sizes, standard and +.004 oversize to compensate for wear on the steel gear on the crankshaft.) I have no idea about the quality of today's replacements as I use NOS or NORS timing gears, but you should pose that question on the Model A portion of the "Barn".

While you're shopping for a new timing gear, look also for the special wrench or socket for a wrench for the very large special nut on the front of the timing gear where it is attached to the camshaft. Hopefully you'll have to do this job once, but the right tool for this job makes it easy and anything else either doesn't work or screws up the special nut to the point where it needs to be replaced.

Lastly, when you remove the front timing gear cover be aware that there is a spring-loaded camshaft thrust plunger (Ford's nomenclature) which may or may not need replacement, but either way it must be re-assembled in the front cover when you re-attach the cover to the cylinder block.

[FrankWest]

thanks

[DavidG]

It is highly unlikely that a lot of the teeth have been sheared. It only takes a few to cause disengagement. It is highly likely that you have now solved the mystery of why your engine would not restart.

[Pat/Ohio]

DavidG....This makes perfect sense to me. I want to tell you...the suspense was killing me .

Frank...good luck in replacing the timing gear. I replaced mine with the help of a Model A guy. Was very straight-forward. I had to purchase the special tool to remove the nut also. If you are located near me...I would be happy to loan it to you. Good luck...I'm pullin' for you! Pat

[Charlie Stephens]

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Originally Posted by DavidG

It sounds like the sheared teeth on the timing gear are next to the mating gear on the crankshaft itself, which of course makes perfect sense, i.e. no teeth, no engagement of the timing gear.

At this point I recommend that you not attempt to rotate the timing gear as you risk altering the valve timing, adding one more thing to your "to do" list associated with replacing the timing gear. The next step is to remove the front timing gear cover in order to access the entire timing gear to permit its replacement. (The other next step is to buy a new timing gear. They are same as that used on Model As and are readily available from Model A part suppliers. Originally they came in two sizes, standard and +.004 oversize to compensate for wear on the steel gear on the crankshaft.) I have no idea about the quality of today's replacements as I use NOS or NORS timing gears, but you should pose that question on the Model A portion of the "Barn".

While you're shopping for a new timing gear, look also for the special wrench or socket for a wrench for the very large special nut on the front of the timing gear where it is attached to the camshaft. Hopefully you'll have to do this job once, but the right tool for this job makes it easy and anything else either doesn't work or screws up the special nut to the point where it needs to be replaced.

Lastly, when you remove the front timing gear cover be aware that there is a spring-loaded camshaft thrust plunger (Ford's nomenclature) which may or may not need replacement, but either way it must be re-assembled in the front cover when you re-attach the cover to the cylinder block.

David,

You lost me on one thing. You said that you "recommend that you not attempt to rotate the timing gear as you risk altering the valve timing". Since the crankshaft turns free relative to the camshaft hasn't all timing already been lost? I would add for Frank to be sure to line up the mark on the timing gear with the mark on the crankshaft gear when reassembling.

Charlie Stephens

[V8COOPMAN]

That means......if you haven't bent any valves so far, don't tempt fate by moving the cam at this late date. DD

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

That means......if you haven't bent any valves so far, don't tempt fate by moving the cam at this late date. DD

You lost me, how would moving the cam bend a valve? Are you thinking of some of the late model engines that have the pistons hit the valves when the timing belt breaks?

Charlie Stephens

[DavidG]

Charlie,

I'm just trying to take Frank through it one step at a time. Trying to turn the timing gear as he indicated he attempted is completely non-productive, i.e. a waste of time. Of course he will eventually have to align the marks on the two gears and yes, they probably are out of alignment already. Further, you're right, bending a valve is not a risk. But this project needs to focus on the essential steps to completion without further detours.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Charlie,

I'm just trying to take Frank through it one step at a time. Trying to turn the timing gear as he indicated he attempted is completely non-productive, i.e. a waste of time. Of course he will eventually have to align the marks on the two gears and yes, they probably are out of alignment already. Further, you're right, bending a valve is not a risk. But this project needs to focus on the essential steps to completion without further detours.

David,

I agree that trying to turn the gear is non productive. I was afraid he would take you literally and spend too much time trying to not turn the cam (even a couple of degrees) as he removed the nut.

Charlie Stephens

[Mart]

I'd recommend turning the cam. I know you can't with the gear as it is, but there must be a reason why the gear stripped it's teeth. There may be a sticking valve or some other reason that may have caused an extra load on the cam and stripped the gear teeth. If you can turn the cam by hand you can first of all see if it stops before making a complete turn, but also check that the turning force to open all valves is more or less equal.
Mart.

[George/Maine]

The dist should pull one if no rust, my guess the pin on bottom of dist may have sheared. Remove what ever keeps it from turning. Look at other engine..
Its best to remove the dist and oil and set points, then check for binding shaft stuck and if you are lucky the pin has sheared on drive slot bottom of dist.
I would do the simple things first.
The has been story's of people taking the dist out and will never run again then you will have to junk it. LOL
You have had people work on your cars for years and you should have learned these basics years ago.
You would be better to go to the model A section.
If the dist was locked and the shaft froze it would most likely shear the pin on the drive slot in the bottom of dist.
I,m not blowing smoke up your asxx.
Post 97
that's the wrong end the female end is in dist.
I don't know or ever heard of a dist puller.
If you are in a warm area like ca or fl you could use a pipe wrench to twist the dist out by now. Only you know what you have and ford made thing easy to fix not like today mass air senses were a bug would stop the car cold.
The dist can only go in one way so don,t take the joke to heart.
To add to this if you turm the engine over once the gear should be at 90degs.
You can,t see broken teeth then my guess its THE KEY WAY ON CRANKSHAFT IS BROKEN. THIS COULD BE CAUSED BY DIST FROZE UP

[DavidG]

Mart,

Again, one step at a time. It's worth turning the cam to make sure everything that runs off it is up to snuff, but not until the timing gear has been removed when turning the cam is then a straightforward process.

Let's all wait until Frank has removed the front timing gear cover and tells us what he has found. I suspect that the odds of a sheared woodruff key on the crankshaft are extremely high; possible, but not probable.

[FrankWest]

I took off all the bolts from the timing cover but have a problem. Not sure if there is still one screw under the engine support bracket which is disconnected bu cannot be removed because the timing cover has two ledges cast in the timing cover that actually overhand the support bracket. Strange, but my spare model B engine does NOT have these overhangs? I looked in all my books Model A and 1933 ford for disassemble instructions but can't find anything.
see diagram
Purple are the bracket and screws I removed

There is enough play in the bracket that if all they screws were removed I think the cover could be slid off.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

You lost me, how would moving the cam bend a valve? Are you thinking of some of the late model engines that have the pistons hit the valves when the timing belt breaks?

Charlie Stephens

Charlie.....I'm sorry, and you're right! I did kinda lose my head there for a moment......I've since re-gained my composure. DD

[FrankWest]

Here is a picture of the ledges on the Timing cover.
Also It looks like the timing cover sis attached to the four oil pan bolts...

[FrankWest]

Here are the screws I have removed...
The timing cover is still hard to remove.
Hit with a rubber hammer a few times......?

[VeryTangled]

Maybe this helps...

[FrankWest]

There is ONE last bolt marked in blue...
That I can't get at because of the engine mount bracket with is loose but trapped between the ledges on the timing cover and main pulley.....
Strange that there seems no procedure to remove the timing cover in the ford bullitins of repair books, unless I just overlooked them?

[DavidG]

Frank,

You probably cannot remove the timing gear cover without at least loosening the two special bolts that attachment the front motor mount bracket to the front cross member. It is probably best to remove that bracket altogether as it will only get in the way of your replacing the timing gear (should it prove to have some sheared teeth).

Those ledges that you refer to are characteristic of all '32 and '33-'34 four-cylinder timing gear covers (those two types are different and are not interchangeable).

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Frank,

You probably cannot remove the timing gear cover without at least loosening the two special bolts that attachment the front motor mount bracket to the front cross member. It is probably best to remove that bracket altogether as it will only get in the way of your replacing the timing gear (should it prove to have some sheared teeth).

Those ledges that you refer to are characteristic of all '32 and '33-'34 four-cylinder timing gear covers (those two types are different and are not interchangeable).

done
But the engine bracket now loose is still trapped between the ledges and the Lower engine pulley

[George/Maine]

Frank
You will be taking the oil pan down so do it now and look up and see the gears.
If the dist is stuck you can not turn camshaft.
Easy things first pull the dist and prove me wrong. By the way the keyway is only .75 cents.

[FlatheadTed]

Are you guys really going to coach Frank through to a full engine rebuild ?? Ted

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

,We had this problem recently on a Model A and it was the tang on the distributor shaft .water had got in through the head .

jammed the gears rusted the tang

[DavidG]

Frank,

Earlier you had said that you had placed a block of wood under the oil pan and jacked it up. You now need to jack it further to free the front motor mount bracket from the insulators on the front cross member. Once the bracket is no longer resting on the insulators, remove them from the front cross member. This along with perhaps a little further raising of the engine should enable you to rotate the front engine mount sufficiently to clear the ledges and remove it through the narrow opening that exists (or should exist) between the crankshaft pulley and the ledges.

This is a challenge unique to the '33-'34 fours that is the result of the slanting of the radiator rearward (compared to a '32) and the further rearward placement of a four in the '33-'34 chassis (compared to a V-8). That rearward placement wasn't enough to create the needed clearance between the fan and the radiator so they shortened the water pump, moved the generator back, and reduced the length of the crankshaft pulley. The net result is that there is very little space between the back of the crankshaft pulley and the ledges on the front of the timing gear front cover. There was a better way to handle the greater overall length of a four than a V-8 in a '33-'34 chassis, but it is what it is, namely a compromise.

[Mart]

Would it be a big deal to loosen the crank pulley bolt and pull the pulley slightly forward?

Mart.

[FrankWest]

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Originally Posted by DavidG

Frank,

Earlier you had said that you had placed a block of wood under the oil pan and jacked it up. You now need to jack it further to free the front motor mount bracket from the insulators on the front cross member. Once the bracket is no longer resting on the insulators, remove them from the front cross member. This along with perhaps a little further raising of the engine should enable you to rotate the front engine mount sufficiently to clear the ledges and remove it through the narrow opening that exists (or should exist) between the crankshaft pulley and the ledges.

This is a challenge unique to the '33-'34 fours that is the result of the slanting of the radiator rearward (compared to a '32) and the further rearward placement of a four in the '33-'34 chassis (compared to a V-8). That rearward placement wasn't enough to create the needed clearance between the fan and the radiator so they shortened the water pump, moved the generator back, and reduced the length of the crankshaft pulley. The net result is that there is very little space between the back of the crankshaft pulley and the ledges on the front of the timing gear front cover. There was a better way to handle the greater overall length of a four than a V-8 in a '33-'34 chassis, but it is what is, namely a compromise.

I already took the bolts out of the insulator pads...the pads are solidified and I will replace them.
So you say I should jack up the engine slightly higher to allow me to twist out the racket which is now loose.
can the engine take this lifting without damage to the "linkage" I believe they call it?

[DavidG]

Frank,

It can take it up to a point as what you are doing is slightly rotating the rear of the transmission in the rubber ring in the center of the rear motor/transmission mount attached to the center cross member. The output shaft on the end of the transmission is attached directly to the universal joint on the front of the driveshaft so movement there is not a problem (within limits, of course).

If you are concerned about distorting the rear motor/transmission mount, you could loosen the two hex head bolts that attach the mount to the center cross member. Unfortunately, access to those bolts requires the removal of the V-shaped sheet metal panel that covers up the top of the transmission and forms part of the floor. I would not do that unless you are absolutely unable to achieve enough space to rotate the front motor mount bracket clear of the ledges on the timing gear cover after you remove the two rubber and steel motor mount insulators from the front cross member.

[DavidG]

In re-reading your last note, I'm not sure that you had removed the insulators or just the bolts that pass through the insulators. You will not create enough space to rotate the front motor mount bracket sufficiently without removing the insulators from the front cross member. If you leave them in place and try to jack up the front of the engine to achieve the needed clearance you will have jacked it up too far and you will run the risk of permanent damage to the rear motor/transmission mount.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Frank,

It can take it up to a point as what you are doing is slightly rotating the rear of the transmission in the rubber ring in the center of the rear motor/transmission mount attached to the center cross member. The output shaft on the end of the transmission is attached directly to the universal joint on the front of the driveshaft so movement there is not a problem (within limits, of course).

If you are concerned about distorting the rear motor/transmission mount, you could loosen the two hex head bolts that attach the mount to the center cross member. Unfortunately, access to those bolts requires the removal of the V-shaped sheet metal panel that covers up the top of the transmission and forms part of the floor. I would not do that unless you are absolutely unable to achieve enough space to rotate the front motor mount bracket clear of the ledges on the timing gear cover after you remove the two rubber and steel motor mount insulators from the front cross member.

even if I removed the engine the bracket is still trapped between the ledges on the timing cover and crank pulley and the oil pain top flang.
It looks like only the pulley removal would release the bracket.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Mart

Would it be a big deal to loosen the crank pulley bolt and pull the pulley slightly forward?

Mart.

That is probably the only way to release the trapped loose bracket.

Does that pulley come off easily? Is the bolt on the neck?
Mart.[/QUOTE]

[DavidG]

Frank,

I truly wish that the answer to that question was yes, the pulley comes off easily, but that is not the case. The bolt that retains the pulley on the end of the crankshaft is in front, in center of the pulley. The forward portion has four slots and what sort look like teeth and that's where you engaged your hand crank, assuming that is what you used to turn the crankshaft. The center of it is hex shaped (1 3/8" across the flats) which is where one tightens or loosens the screw.

Assuming that you're able to loosen that screw then the pulley is pulled forward to remove it or in you case enough to create some clearance to remove the front motor mount bracket. The problem is that the pulley, if original, is made of cast iron and it is very easy to chip the lips of the pulley if you simply try to pry at the pulley to move it forward. The only safe way to pull the pulley forward is with an appropriately-configured puller, preferably one with at least three fingers to capture the back lip of the pulley in three places. Depending on the size and configuration of the puller there may not be enough room between the front spring u-bolts/hand crank guide/raised portion of the front cross member to permit the puller to be square with the crankshaft pulley.

There's about 3/4" of clearance between the front of the pulley and the back of the raised portion of the front cross member which is more than enough room for your purpose of moving the pulley forward an 1/8th or so.

May be you will be very lucky and can slide the pulley forward once you have removed the retaining bolt. In addition to the pulley being a relatively tight fit on the end of the crankshaft, the oil seals in the bottom of the timing gear cover and the top of the front of the oil pan will fight you as they understandably are a tight fit up against the shank of the pulley. You've loosened the front timing gear cover so that will take the pressure off that side of the oil seal. You would need to drop the front end of the oil pan to relieve the pressure on the oil pan side of the oil seal. It still very likely will not be enough for you to be able pull the pulley forward without the use of a puller of some sort.

The front end of '33-'34 four-cylinder engine is the epitome of dumb design.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Frank,

I truly wish that the answer to that question was yes, the pulley comes off easily, but that is not the case. The bolt that retains the pulley on the end of the crankshaft is in front, in center of the pulley. The forward portion has four slots and what sort look like teeth and that's where you engaged your hand crank, assuming that is what you used to turn the crankshaft. The center of it is hex shaped (1 3/8" across the flats) which is where one tightens or loosens the screw.

Assuming that you're able to loosen that screw then the pulley is pulled forward to remove it or in you case enough to create some clearance to remove the front motor mount bracket. The problem is that the pulley, if original, is made of cast iron and it is very easy to chip the lips of the pulley if you simply try to pry at the pulley to move it forward. The only safe way to pull the pulley forward is with an appropriately-configured puller, preferably one with at least three fingers to capture the back lip of the pulley in three places. Depending on the size and configuration of the puller there may not be enough room between the front spring u-bolts/hand crank guide/raised portion of the front cross member to permit the puller to be square with the crankshaft pulley.

There's about 3/4" of clearance between the front of the pulley and the back of the raised portion of the front cross member which is more than enough room for your purpose of moving the pulley forward an 1/8th or so.

May be you will be very lucky and can slide the pulley forward once you have removed the retaining bolt. In addition to the pulley being a relatively tight fit on the end of the crankshaft, the oil seals in the bottom of the timing gear cover and the top of the front of the oil pan will fight you as they understandably are a tight fit up against the shank of the pulley. You've loosened the front timing gear cover so that will take the pressure off that side of the oil seal. You would need to drop the front end of the oil pan to relieve the pressure on the oil pan side of the oil seal. It still very likely will not be enough for you to be able pull the pulley forward without the use of a puller of some sort.

The front end of '33-'34 four-cylinder engine is the epitome of dumb design.

I remember reading that the model B engine was longer than the v8 so they had to make modifications. I never know that that meant disposable engines!

Funny, I have another model B engine that I bought from the guy that sold me this car. He said it was rebuilt. From it;s serial number it was built in 1935... And it has no ledges on the timing cover.. I guess they learned their lesson.

May I should cut off the ledges on my 1933 engine then I could slid the bracket right of. The bracket has 2 bolts that go into the Timing cover They probably do not need those 2 PIA ledges..

What would be the best way to cut or grind off those ledges???
I would make sure to drain all the fuel out and let the car duel lines dry out before cutting or grinding the ledges.

[FrankWest]

Maybe I should cut the engine bracket remove and then replace the timing cover with one without ledges? The only problem seems that the bearing bulge for the timing gear seems to protrude approx 1 inch rather than 1/2 inch on the 1935 timing cover??

[FrankWest]

This truly has become a real soap opera!

Well, what are you gonna do.
Funny thing was that, I didn't buy the 1933 v8 because it had a 1935 engine and the interior was destroyed too.
My consolation is that thousands of hot rodders are always dropping new engines in these cars.....so I should learn to think outside the box.

If I just cut off the motor bracket to replace later with a new I don;t think I be able to get the new one in place with the ledges present and the crank pulley on.
During manufacture the crank pully must have been put on after the engine was mounted. What the heck was Henry thinking....Make more money!

[Bob C]

If the bracket is loose will it twist or wiggle enough that you can get the
bolts that are behind the bracket out, then you could remove the bracket
and timing gear cover at the same time.

Bob

[Mike B]

I know this isn't a SBC, but could the crank threads be stripped?

I/e does the crank p-ully rotate when the engine is turned over?

[DavidG]

Frank,

If you cut off those ledges you've lost me. They are there for the best of reasons and that is to take the shear load off the two bolts that hold the bracket to the timing gear cover. Think of the pounding that those two bolts would take without the ledges; before long they would beat their threads (steel against cast iron) into ovals.

As you said, if you cut your motor mount bracket to retrieve the timing gear cover you still would have to move the pulley forward to attach a replacement bracket. (If you can't remove it for lack of clearance, you cannot replace it for the same reason.)

There were three different timing gear covers used on 1928-34 four cylinder engines and only the one designed for use in '33-'34 chassis will work in yours. The other two were designed for use in chassis with vertical radiators and crankshaft pulleys nearly an inch longer than yours. Which in turn means that the generator pulleys were nearly an inch further forward. Since the generators attach to the timing gear covers and the generator mounting brackets are all basically the same in terms of dimensions, you have to have the unique-to-'33/'34 timing cover or else your fan belt won't line up with all three (water pump, generator, and crankshaft) pulleys.

I suggest you take a real close look at that other timing gear cover you have and see if the boss for mounting the generator is in exactly the same position front to back as that on your car's timing gear cover.

Ford did not produce any vehicles in North America during either the 1935 model or calendar years that were powered by four-cylinder engines. Ford did continue to produce the engines in the U.S. into the early 1940s, but only for service replacements and for use as industrial engines. I'm curious as to why you think that your spare engine is a '35. A couple of photos of the timing gear cover of that engine would be very educational as well.

Ford did release a two-piece crankshaft pulley for service which is much easier to remove, but not for '33-'34 fours, just for the Model As and '32s. That's unfortunate in this instance.

I doubt if the motive for what you've encountered is money as it was not cheap to tool up for a new timing gear cover, crankshaft pulley, and water pump to accommodate the slanted radiator of the '33-'34s. Whatever the reason, it's engineering at its worst.

You're right about the original assembly sequence; the crank pulley had/has to be added last, which I learned the hard way.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by Mart

I'd recommend turning the cam. I know you can't with the gear as it is, but there must be a reason why the gear stripped it's teeth. There may be a sticking valve or some other reason that may have caused an extra load on the cam and stripped the gear teeth. If you can turn the cam by hand you can first of all see if it stops before making a complete turn, but also check that the turning force to open all valves is more or less equal.
Mart.

Mart,

I was thinking the same thing when I read your post. One piece of information Frank is going to need is what torque should it take to turn the cam (after the initial break away torque). My GUESS would be about 10 pounds but that is JUST A GUESS since I have never had a reason to measure it (or even try it). Does anyone else have a better number (please post it)? After Frank removes the gear he could replace the nut and turn the shaft with a torque wrench. He will probably need a spacer below the nut, maybe the old gear with all of the teeth removed?

Charlie Stephens

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

Are you guys really going to coach Frank through to a full engine rebuild ?? Ted


jammed the gears rusted the tang

Why not Ted? , the man is here asking for help...might take a bit longer than normal, but he is trying.

I say give Frank his due, and continue to assist him in his issues.


Hey, we all learned somewhere.

[Richard]

Get in there with a stainless steel brush and clean the ignition circuit clean the point check the points clean the spark plugs and check gap. Check for fuel pressure.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Frank,

If you cut off those ledges you've lost me. They are there for the best of reasons and that is to take the shear load off the two bolts that hold the bracket to the timing gear cover. Think of the pounding that those two bolts would take without the ledges; before long they would beat their threads (steel against cast iron) into ovals.

As you said, if you cut your motor mount bracket to retrieve the timing gear cover you still would have to move the pulley forward to attach a replacement bracket. (If you can't remove it for lack of clearance, you cannot replace it for the same reason.)

There were three different timing gear covers used on 1928-34 four cylinder engines and only the one designed for use in '33-'34 chassis will work in yours. The other two were designed for use in chassis with vertical radiators and crankshaft pulleys nearly an inch longer than yours. Which in turn means that the generator pulleys were nearly an inch further forward. Since the generators attach to the timing gear covers and the generator mounting brackets are all basically the same in terms of dimensions, you have to have the unique-to-'33/'34 timing cover or else your fan belt won't line up with all three (water pump, generator, and crankshaft) pulleys.

I suggest you take a real close look at that other timing gear cover you have and see if the boss for mounting the generator is in exactly the same position front to back as that on your car's timing gear cover.

Ford did not produce any vehicles in North America during either the 1935 model or calendar years that were powered by four-cylinder engines. Ford did continue to produce the engines in the U.S. into the early 1940s, but only for service replacements and for use as industrial engines. I'm curious as to why you think that your spare engine is a '35. A couple of photos of the timing gear cover of that engine would be very educational as well.

Ford did release a two-piece crankshaft pulley for service which is much easier to remove, but not for '33-'34 fours, just for the Model As and '32s. That's unfortunate in this instance.

I doubt if the motive for what you've encountered is money as it was not cheap to tool up for a new timing gear cover, crankshaft pulley, and water pump to accommodate the slanted radiator of the '33-'34s. Whatever the reason, it's engineering at its worst.

You're right about the original assembly sequence; the crank pulley had/has to be added last, which I learned the hard way.

The serial Number on my spare engine is B5334891 32

[FrankWest]

Again, I appreciate everyone;s help.
I am in a holding mode until a solution turns up.
I am in no hurry.... I don;t want to ruin anything.
Here is a list of possible solutions...Some are silly but I am trying to brainstorm

fix considerations
1) Try to remove crank pulley
a) Can they usually be removed after 80 years? Or are pins and bolts frozen.
If break then can I obtain replacement.
What if damage shaft....will I have to replace crank shaft?

2) Cut engine support bracket.
Can I find replacement?
Can it be installed? If I can't remove existing one from between ledges on timing cover, Crank pulley, engine oil pan lip...Then how can I insert new bracket in place?

3) with Hack saw Cut off ledgers on Timing cover.
Still have problem, Can bracket fit past
Timing cover dimple for timing gear end bearing "protrudes approx 1 inch Why??? Perhaps can file down approx 1/4 in or so to allow bracket to slide through.

4) Cut engine support bracket.
Can I find replacement?
Replace old timing cover with newer one without ledges that Ford produced in 1935. Will this newer Timing cover work on the older 1933 engine???

5) and best just thought of it.
A shallow socket wrench with tapered neck may fit under bracket to undo the last bolt

[Pat/Ohio]

Frank, Any possibility of you posting a picture of your spare engine? Would like to see the front especially. Thanks, Pat

[DavidG]

Frank,

Forget # 2 and 3 for the reasons previously stated. In #3, that dimple you refer to captures the spring for the camshaft thrust plunger. If you file a 1/4" off it you will likely ruin the cover. Likely 4 won't work as your ledge-less timing gear cover is probably not the unique '33-'34 version of the timing gear cover as stated above. But if by chance it is a revised version of the '33-'34 then this is a viable alternative. In one of my recent posts I indicated how to identify the '33'34 version based on the location of the boss for mounting the generator.

I have a good used '33-'34 crank pulley in case you break yours in the process of removing it. It will come off the end of crankshaft without damaging the crankshaft as there normally is oil in the immediate vicinity and corrosion is not normally an issue. There are no pins or bolts involved except the big one on the end of the crankshaft as described above. The pulley slides on the end of the crankshaft and a notch at the back end of the pulley engages a Woodruff key that is inserted into a slot in the crankshaft. It is held in place by the big bolt that doubles as the engagement point for the hand crank. Once that bolt is removed all that is holding the pulley in place is friction. But there's plenty of it hence the need for a puller in 99 out of 100 instances. Most of that friction comes from the oil seals in the timing gear cover and oil pan as mentioned above.

I also have a spare front motor mount bracket, but if you stick with #1 you won't need it.

If this were my car I would remove the grille and radiator to gain unfettered access to the front of the engine which would then make using a puller on the pulley relatively easy.

[George/Maine]

Frank I guess you have the radiator out and can see if there are holes 2 or 3 for bolts for a puller so not to damage it the pulley.
While thinking drop the pan.

[chap52]

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Frank,
We can all identify with the frustration you are feeling. We have all been there.
Don't give up on asking advise from the knowledgeable folks on this forum.
To those of you pitching in to get Frank through this process, Thanks for living "The Golden Rule".

[FlatheadTed]

I think you are at the point were the grill needs to come of to work on the cam gear ,you could also jack the motor up about a 1" at the front the rubber rear mounts will flex a little ,you could then slide out the front mount ,Ted

[Mart]

I was thinking also that if it were me I would have the grille and the radiator out of the way. This is quite a job, and needs approaching with care. Being able to do the job from the front will be easier than doing it from either side.

On reflection, having said that, I think that if I were doing it I wouldn't remove the grille and rad unless it was absolutely necessary.

Here's me thinking it through:
Slacken crank bolt. Just a couple of turns.
Using a great deal of care, move the crank pulley forward just enough to release the engine mount.
Remove front cover.
Remove cam gear (never had a 4. Is it difficult?).
Rotate cam to make sure all is free.
Align cam and crank and fit new gear (Is an improved version available)
Refit cover.
Refit engine mounts.

Job done.

It ought to be relatively simple, removing the grille and radiator (and probably the hood) and then refitting with all the alignment issues is probably not worth the extra work, as I said, unless absolutely necessary.

Mart.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Frank,

The starter motor electrical circuit is not routed through the ammeter so that telltale is not indicative of an electrical problem per se. Check for spark next.

David, it is a good indicator there is something wrong in the electrical. The ammeter will pulsate when cranking the car because of the points. As the points touch, they ground which will show a discharge for a split second. When they break, it will show a neutral or 0 electrical movement.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

Again, I appreciate everyone;s help.
I am in a holding mode until a solution turns up.
I am in no hurry.... I don;t want to ruin anything.
Here is a list of possible solutions...Some are silly but I am trying to brainstorm

fix considerations
1) Try to remove crank pulley
a) Can they usually be removed after 80 years? Or are pins and bolts frozen.
If break then can I obtain replacement.
What if damage shaft....will I have to replace crank shaft?

2) Cut engine support bracket.
Can I find replacement?
Can it be installed? If I can't remove existing one from between ledges on timing cover, Crank pulley, engine oil pan lip...Then how can I insert new bracket in place?

3) with Hack saw Cut off ledgers on Timing cover.
Still have problem, Can bracket fit past
Timing cover dimple for timing gear end bearing "protrudes approx 1 inch Why??? Perhaps can file down approx 1/4 in or so to allow bracket to slide through.

4) Cut engine support bracket.
Can I find replacement?
Replace old timing cover with newer one without ledges that Ford produced in 1935. Will this newer Timing cover work on the older 1933 engine???

5) and best just thought of it.
A shallow socket wrench with tapered neck may fit under bracket to undo the last bolt

Maybe you need to call me. http://www.model-a-ford-4bangers.com/

The number is at the top of the page.

[FrankWest]

Great news...
finally Got last bolt off
timing cover off
engine bracket off
Only small number of timing gear teeth missing right near crank shaft
slightly hank cranked engine. center crank gear turned, timing gear did NOT
JUST LIKE DAVIDG said

[FrankWest]

Need to get old timing dear off
And select proper timing gear.
Why did Ford use a Plastic like material for original Timing Gear?
Thinking of replacing with aluminum?

What do most 4 cylinder engine owner put in their cars?

[chap52]

Eureka! Thanks for sharing the good news.

[DavidG]

Frank,

I use the original material timing gears. Please recall the millions and millions of miles the 1928-34 fours have run on gears made of that material (as well as most of the pre-WWII V-8s).

As indicated in my PM, the next step is to remove the old gear and verify that nothing is binding the camshaft, such as a rust-frozen distributor shaft.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

Need to get old timing dear off
And select proper timing gear.
Why did Ford use a Plastic like material for original Timing Gear?
Thinking of replacing with aluminum?

Frank,

What do most 4 cylinder engine owner put in their cars?

I assume you have a tool that looks like this for removing the nut on the end of the camshaft? After the gear is off put the nut back on with a spacer and use this tool to check that the camshaft turns freely as Dave suggested.

Charlie Stephens

[FrankWest]

Just ordered one from Brattons..

Once I have it I will check to see if anything is binding...Hope not.
The timing gear was NOT badly broken up just the upper edges of 7 or 8 teeth were sheared off.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Frank,

I use the original material timing gears. Please recall the millions and millions of miles the 1928-34 fours have run on gears made of that material (as well as most of the pre-WWII V-8s).

As indicated in my PM, the next step is to remove the old gear and verify that nothing is binding the camshaft, such as a rust-frozen distributor shaft.

I would imagine that in newly manufactured gears the resins are fresh and would not determinate for decades? As could happen in adhesives and laminates over 80 years old.

I wonder if Ford chose this original material as a type of sacrificial safety "valve" that would shear off and prevent engine from being blown if any binding occurred?

[Mart]

Frank, if you can remove the old gear you can then see if the cam turns without unduly heavy loading.

You don't want to wait until you fit the new gear before finding a potential problem.

You will not harm anything by turning the cam while the crank stays still. Cam rotation will be anti-clockwise when viewed from the front.

Mart.

[George/Maine]

I think they used plastic gear so it would be quite Chevy 6 also used them.
I think what happen the dist. shaft was binding and the gear was soft and sheared when trying to start it. The gears were turning fat and happy with oil and the dist was dry and rust and bound up. Removing the dist is easy to do.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by George/Maine

I think they used plastic gear so it would be quite Chevy 6 also used them.
I think what happen the dist. shaft was binding and the gear was soft and sheared when trying to start it. The gears were turning fat and happy with oil and the dist was dry and rust and bound up. Removing the dist is easy to do.

Thanks for your help...I will check....

[midgetracer]

Frank,
I would use the laminated original material cam gear. They make two qualities, masserated(cheaper) and laminated. Your old gear swelled a bit from sitting so long and may be a bit stuck on the cam, but with a bit of prying, it will come off. A new one will go on easier. be sure to line up the timing marks. Congratulations on your success so far. The worst is over.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Mart

Frank, if you can remove the old gear you can then see if the cam turns without unduly heavy loading.

You don't want to wait until you fit the new gear before finding a potential problem.

You will not harm anything by turning the cam while the crank stays still. Cam rotation will be anti-clockwise when viewed from the front.

Mart.

Thanks for your guidance
The Wrench did not arrive today, Saturday....
Usually Bratton's is pretty fast
Well, I am sure it will arrive Monday, then I will work on removing the timing gear, and then carefully checking if the cam spins..
I will not try to force anything....
Something I learned that from repairing watches.
In watchmaking, the tools are small, not only because the parts are small
but because this restricts the force you can employ. Finger pressure and hand strength only.
Mart.[/QUOTE]

[FrankWest]

My son came over today and took this photo of My Timing gear with his cell phone camera..Ain't modern technology something. Is that packing around the Nut or just swelling of the gear?

[FrankWest]

Changed format...Keep your fingers crossed

Transfer failed!!!
What crap!!!

[FrankWest]

Maybe file too big, cropped picture down

[George/Maine]

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I cant see nut but that packing around the pulley is the front seal.

[FrankWest]

I tried to include the whole NUT!

[Bill's Auto Works]

I had the pleasure of meeting Frank West sometime back (I am the transporter that brought him the extra engine & trans from California) What a super nice guy. I have been following this thread & am glad you have located the problem. You should be commended for not getting discouraged & sticking with it. It is good to see someone who is clearly not a lifetime gearhead like some of us wanting to learn & do it himself. I am also very proud of all the guys that have tried to help him along with this project. This is the kind of situation that makes this site GREAT! Keep up the good fight, I wish I was closer so I could come over & lend a hand for an afternoon.
Merry Christmas
Bill Squires(owner)
Bill's Auto Works

[DavidG]

Frank,

It is a pleasure to see a timing gear nut that hasn't been all buggered up by someone using the wrong tool to loosen or tighten it.

If you mean that toothed area immediately surrounding the nut, that's the center section of the timing gear itself, not any sort of packing.

[FrankWest]

Do you think that this Timing gear might be as old as the car? Not important, but I noticed the Ford script...Imagine lasting 80 years...

[Mart]

I'd guess it probably is as old as the car Frank, there's nothing to suggest it gas been replaced. The nut being unmarked would also support the original part theory.

David, what should Frank use to undo that nut? A big open ender? Do you rely on the gear teeth to stop the cam from turning?

Mart.

[Pat/Ohio]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

Do you think that this Timing gear might be as old as the car? Not important, but I noticed the Ford script...Imagine lasting 80 years...

Frank, It very well could be the original timing gear. I believe if you look at around 7:30 on your timing gear you'll notice the machined "dimple" on the outer ring (near teeth). The crank gear will have one also. These are the "dimples" you'll need to align with each other when you install the new timing gear. Good luck, Pat

[George/Maine]

I was over to Bratton's and that is some engine lots of tools.
I think frank ordered the tool to remove the nut and not a hammer and chisel.
I see they have a new hex nut to replace old one.
Now I see were the dist puller came from.
That site is enough to scare any one.
After this project newer engines will be easy.
Way to go.

[DavidG]

Mart,

Because the nut is slightly recessed relative to the opening in the cylinder block, an open end wrench of a length sufficient to provide the required leverage won't fit properly on the flats of the nut and the result of using one is often seen on badly damaged nuts where such a wrench was used. (Hence my comment above about the pristine condition of the nut on Frank's camshaft.) The only safe tool to use is one like that depicted in Charlie Stephens photo posted earlier in this thread. I understand that Frank has one on order and expects it arrive shortly. It is a single purpose tool, but more than worth its price in avoided frustration.

Once he has the tool in place the timing gear will rotate until its undamaged teeth engage the teeth of the gear on the crankshaft at which point he should be able to unloosen the nut. He may shear off a few more timing gear teeth in the process, but it is highly unlikely that he will shear off all of them. Additionally, if there is some seizing of the camshaft such as a rust-frozen distributor shaft, that would assist in keeping the camshaft from rotating while unloosening the nut. (Frank is lucky that he has a four in this instance as the timing gear is not pressed on, unlike the timing gear of a V-8 of that vintage.)

[Mart]

Thanks David, I must have missed those pics of the special "socket". It seems obvious now.

Mart.

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

It looks like stripped gear where it mesh the crank gear. Walt

[FrankWest]

The wrench just arrived at almost 5 pm.. the mail man comes later and later each day.

[B-O-B]

At least he/she showed up & made a delivery. I recently head where a mail person had their closet full of mail. When asked why she replied I was bored.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Mart,

Because the nut is slightly recessed relative to the opening in the cylinder block, an open end wrench of a length sufficient to provide the required leverage won't fit properly on the flats of the nut and the result of using one is often seen on badly damaged nuts where such a wrench was used. (Hence my comment above about the pristine condition of the nut on Frank's camshaft.) The only safe tool to use is one like that depicted in Charlie Stephens photo posted earlier in this thread. I understand that Frank has one on order and expects it arrive shortly. It is a single purpose tool, but more than worth its price in avoided frustration.

Once he has the tool in place the timing gear will rotate until its undamaged teeth engage the teeth of the gear on the crankshaft at which point he should be able to unloosen the nut. He may shear off a few more timing gear teeth in the process, but it is highly unlikely that he will shear off all of them. Additionally, if there is some seizing of the camshaft such as a rust-frozen distributor shaft, that would assist in keeping the camshaft from rotating while unloosening the nut. (Frank is lucky that he has a four in this instance as the timing gear is not pressed on, unlike the timing gear of a V-8 of that vintage.)

Tried to unscrew the nut...Used 1/2 rachet with 18 inch long handle
At first timing gear turn till gears engaged main cam gear,
Then as I turned felt and heard the cylinders moving with resistance as when you try to crank start the engine. what is the proper way to prevent then engine fro turning? Put the trans in gear???

[Terry,OH]

Can try to put the transmission in gear with the parking brake set.

[DavidG]

Make that third gear and block the wheels as well.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Make that third gear and block the wheels as well.

Thanks

[FrankWest]

Trying to loosen Timing Nut. Motor no longer turning but remember the front motor mounts are off and as I attempt to loosen, the engine is noticeably moving in the direction of the force exerted. Nut has not yet cracked loose. Note I have been spraying each day for 3 days PB penetrating oil on nut. I just sprayed some more will try around lunch time. My some has air impact wrench...maybe can crack nut loose...Can it damage?

Each time I attempt to counter clockwise turn the Nut the motor noticable moves with the wrench. Maybe I can wedge a block of wood between the motor and frame?
No hurry.. I will wait...consider what to do next

[DavidG]

You might wish to consider cutting a piece of 2" x 4" lumber and wedging it between the exhaust manifold and the inside of the chassis frame rail on the right side. Heat will not harm anything as long as it is used in moderation (don't boil the oil) and an impact wrench should be helpful.

[chap52]

Thanks Frank,
Just remember, in retrospect that those events that produced the greatest challenges also reaped the greatest victories.
We have all been through this and your perseverance and tenacity is inspiring to all of us busted knuckled wrenchers.
Don't rush the PB process.

[Pat/Ohio]

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I remember using a long pipe slipped over the breaker bar when I removed mine. It worked...but boy it was on there tight. Hang in there Frank...I'm rootin' for ya!

[FlatheadTed]

Order a new nut and Use a big chisel ,the shock will get it off You may be able to tidy the old nut up with a file after its off. The chances of you needing to change it again in the futcher will be slim .

[Mart]

I'd try using a mallet to shock the breaker bar. Use caution. An air impact gun would be good (I guess) if you can get a straight shot at it. A piece of stock welded to the special socket so you could whack it with a hammer would also probably be good. Hopefully (as Ted says) this will be a once in a lifetime job.

Mart.

[George/Maine]

I think your drive train is absorbing the energy,
I would put a piece of pipe through the pulley and the other end on frame.Then even block the pan.Then get a piece of pipe and lenghten to braker bar and pull down from pass side,even get hammer and hit end of braker bar.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Pat/Ohio

I remember using a long pipe slipped over the breaker bar when I removed mine. It worked...but boy it was on there tight. Hang in there Frank...I'm rootin' for ya!

The long pipe on the breaker bar is a great idea! Thanks

Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world.
Archimedes

[cmbrucew]

Check the origin of the breaker bar before using a cheater.
Bruce

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by cmbrucew

Check the origin of the breaker bar before using a cheater.
Bruce

Don't understand your comment?
Origin?

[Mart]

He's alluding to a cheaper quality bar not being able to take the extra leverage of putting a length of tube on it.

(Non USA origin is weaker than good ole USA origin)

I don't necessarily agree or disagree, just 'splaining what was meant.

Mart.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Mart

He's alluding to a cheaper quality bar not being able to take the extra leverage of putting a length of tube on it.

(Non USA origin is weaker than good ole USA origin)

I don't necessarily agree or disagree, just 'splaining what was meant.

Mart.

thanks
Harbor freight...must be low quality
all there tools say Pittsburgh but Must be Pittsburgh China, rather than
Pittsburgh, PA.

[Mart]

Guys, (I'm not a 4 banger type) this ain't a left hand thread, is it?

Just checking.

Mart.

[DavidG]

No, they're RH threads.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

No, they're RH threads.

me too, checking again, Turn counter clockwise to remove...Right?

[Mart]

Yeah, Frank, righty tighty lefty loosey. (For a conventional righthand thread)

Mart.

[FrankWest]

Bought a 6 ft steel pipe to augment the breaker bar. New problem....
wrench keeps slipping off the nut. That thing is really on there. Two man job unless I glue the wrench on the nut with JB weld.
I can dissolve the epoxy after removed. But, Rather not glue in case the bond fails then I will have adhesive residue that will interfere with proper wrench fit.
I will have my son help me this weekend.

[George/Maine]

Trying to do things the money way isn't working for you.
They didn't have these tools in the day.
I would get a round heavy duty punch or chisel and a big hammer.
They sell new hex nuts so beat the snot out of it.

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by George/Maine

Trying to do things the money way isn't working for you.
They didn't have these tools in the day.
I would get a round heavy duty punch or chisel and a big hammer.
They sell new hex nuts so beat the snot out of it.

George, the part number for the Ford cam gear wrench is
5-Z-1832, they didn't use a punch and chisel.

Bob

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by George/Maine

Trying to do things the money way isn't working for you.
They didn't have these tools in the day.
I would get a round heavy duty punch or chisel and a big hammer.
They sell new hex nuts so beat the snot out of it.

Thanks.. It may come to that later...I may have to borriw a hammer from you.
Most mechanics have am assortment of sockets in their tool bag.
You have and assortment of Hammers

[George/Maine]

Frank
I do have big hammers and my favorite is a 5lb lead hammer and would use a wrench ??1" maybe.

[DavidG]

Remember the two most important tools in the box: patience and perseverance. Wait until the weekend.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by George/Maine

Frank
I do have big hammers and my favorite is a 5lb lead hammer and would use a wrench ??1" maybe.

Funny

My Father's solution to any mechanical problem was to "BELT it"!
Actually it was also his solution to me and my two brothers when we were a problem too.

[Charlie Stephens]

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I wonder if there is something else going on here? When you stand in front of the car and look at the nut you are turning it counterclockwise? Sorry to ask something that simple but something just doesn't seem right. Can anyone think of anything else that might explain why the nut is not coming off?

Charlie Stephens

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

I wonder if there is something else going on here? When you stand in front of the car and look at the nut you are turning it counterclockwise? Sorry to ask something that simple but something just doesn't seem right. Can anyone think of anything else that might explain why the nut is not coming off?

Charlie Stephens

Yes, when I stand in front of the car I am turning the nut to the left.
I thought the same thing.....Did they change the direction of the screw for model B engines from the model A engines?
All my model A books state "a right hand screw"
can't find anything about changing the timing gear in my collection of ford service bullitins either.
The area around the nut is not even rusted or anything strange.

[DavidG]

No, they did not change the direction of the threads on the nut. A left-hand thread would be counter-intuitive as a left-hand-threaded nut would tend to loosen in use given the direction of the rotation of the camshaft (there's no lock washer underneath the nut), which is same on all Model A, B, and '33-'34 fours.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

No, they did not change the direction of the threads on the nut. A left-hand thread would be counter-intuitive as a left-hand-threaded nut would tend to loosen in use given the direction of the rotation of the camshaft (there's no lock washer underneath the nut), which is same on all Model A, B, and '33-'34 fours.

Good
It is just stuck.
Is it good to just use a steady pressure, and not jerk it?
I don't want to snap the cam....well... what ever happens happens....
I think we will just apply a steady force to the nut until it gives.

[Bob C]

Impact will definitely be more productive than steady pressure.
Have you tried stuffing a rag between the gears to keep them
from turning??

Bob

[FrankWest]

no, but will do it.
would a sharp hit with hammer to the 2 ft breaking bar be good?

[V8COOPMAN]

Finally! Please HIT it.......hard! DD

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Finally! Please HIT it.......hard! DD

LoL

Alright already,, hit the damn thing hard!!!!
Now you see what happens when a watchmaker becomes and auto mechanic!

[DavidG]

Not just any hammer, but one with at least a 4-5 pound head of copper or lead.

[Mike B]

Frank...what is the worse that can happen?

I/e if steady pressure breaks something, or an impact gun does...both ways, things are broke.

I assume you don't have the radiator out yet?...Guessing it should be to get the Impact gun in there.

But, you mentioned your wrench "slipping off"...assume you are using the open end of it?

Imperative in high torque areas, the open end stays straight and flush whilst leveraging.

You'll get it...hang in there!

[DavidG]

Mike B raises a good point. I'm assuming that you are using a socket and breaking bar on the special tool for the nut that you bought. Anything else would be prone to slipping off.

Do not worry about breaking the camshaft as it is forged steel.

[brake1000]

Originally Posted by Bob C

Impact will definitely be more productive than steady pressure.
Have you tried stuffing a rag between the gears to keep them
from turning??

Bob

Wedge a piece of bar stock between the gears, breaker bar with a cheater, and maybe heat up the bolt with a propane torce. Lately I'v been taking my 46 parts car apart with a wrench in one hand and a torch in the other, works good.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Just have someone from your local car club come over with a portable air compressor and an a Impact wrench, and it's off.

[FrankWest]

Got it off!!!
bonded the wrench to the nut with locktite
This morning used breaker bar with 6 foot pipe
Head the crack..... Nut came off clean.
Just have to dissolve loctite from wrench or replace the nut.

[tubman]

Although I have no experience with bangers, I have been following this thread with interest. I admire your persistence, and congratulations on getting it apart.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by tubman

Although I have no experience with bangers, I have been following this thread with interest. I admire your persistence, and congratulations on getting it apart.

Thanks... I am new to the automotive field so have no feel for the forces that
these machines can withstand
therefore I am too cautious...so a pain in the neck...
But I just do not want to break anything.
Thanks for your kind words

[dean333]

Great job Frank!! Patience is a virtrue. I too have been following the thread, so happy for you. Been there, done that so I know the feeling of accomplishment.

[Terry,OH]

In the future if you ever have to remove or insert a bolt or nut with a lot of force always use a six sided socket. They even make sockets for impacts with a thick wall to take the forces. The 12 sided sockets will not take the force necessary without rounding the corners of the hex. Breaking a socket, breaker bar, or a wrench can result in a lot of hurt! Quality tools are worth every cent!

[Bill's Auto Works]

So glad you got it off! I was pulling for you. The rest is easy now.
Merry Christmas

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Terry,OH

In the future if you ever have to remove or insert a bolt or nut with a lot of force always use a six sided socket. They even make sockets for impacts with a thick wall to take the forces. The 12 sided sockets will not take the force necessary without rounding the corners of the hex. Breaking a socket, breaker bar, or a wrench can result in a lot of hurt! Quality tools are worth every cent!

Great info. You are so right about tools.
As a self taught watchmaker....I know that quality tools are the only way to go!
I have to stay away from Harbor freight!
The store is so close to me that I was sucked in.
When purchasing 6 sided sockets what do I ask for....6 sided sockets.
Should I get craftsman or go for snapon.

[V8COOPMAN]

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[QUOTE=Terry,OH;1000612]In the future if you ever have to remove or insert a bolt or nut with a lot of force always use a six sided socket. QUOTE]

This one's not your common "6-point" nut. DD

[VeryTangled]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

I know that quality tools are the only way to

When purchasing 6 sided sockets what do I ask for....6 sided sockets.
Should I get craftsman or go for snapon.

Snap-On is what is used at the educational auto shop I work in so I get to use them quite a bit, we have three or more of almost every product they make. Nice tools, good warranty/service, too pricey for my blood.

Since I was a kid I've put Craftsman in my personal toolbox. Never had a replacement issue, but I've only broken one or two ratchets of theirs. One point, when I replaced my last ratchet, about ten years ago, I was given a refurbished not brand new replacement. As long as it works, it actually makes me happier to know it had a previous life.

IMHO any tool that offers lifetime replacement is what I'd look for, so there are a number of brands that fit. Convenient service is nice. USA made is preferred.

The sockets that were recommended by Terry OH, are sometimes called "six-pointed" and the advice covers both sockets and box-end wrenches. The six-pointed make a better grip on the fastener. The alternative 12-pointed are easier to get onto the fastener, but don't make as good a purchase on the fastener.

[DavidG]

That's excellent advice about using six-point sockets. I rarely use the twelve-point versions for the reason cited plus in a restoration they don't damage the plating of fasteners when installing them.

I've used Craftsman tools forever and none have required replacement, except for a couple of screwdrivers where the tips were worn (I was surprised that they replaced them for that reason).

[FrankWest]

I will get craftsman from now on...
Snapon tools are beautiful but too expensive.

[FrankWest]

Trying to inch off the old timing gear.....very tight...
This will take a while

[Mike B]

I'm not a fan of SnapOn wrenches, I have a few normal (9/16ths 1/2in) and a few large ones (1-1/8th and 1 and 1/16th) and all are too "sharp" I guess the word is, where you handle them, tend to feel the wrench too much on tough nuts and bolts.

Sure are shiny though

[tubman]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

I will get craftsman from now on...
Snapon tools are beautiful but too expensive.

It may be too late; Sears ain't what it used to be. I've gone through about three 1/4" drive ratchets in the last 10 years. Make sure you know exactly what the store will do if something turns out wrong.

[chap52]

Great news Frank! Now smile, take a deep breath and move on to the next head scratcher.
How many hours did you put in thinking through the process before you actually got it done. I find that the hours I actually spend "wrenching" are usually wrapped up in five times that amount of time fixing it in my head.
Well worth the effort no matter what it costs. Good news is that the older I get the less I remember and in retrospect the project didn't seem to take very long at all.

[cmbrucew]

X two on what tubman said. Craftsman is made in china now. Only place you can get made in USA is swap meets or garage sales. As you said Snap on, Mac, and Cornwell are expensive.
Bruce

[Mike B]

Anyone use Husky from Home Depot, neighbor bought a set, they look good.

[Mart]

Well done Frank.

Mart.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by chap52

Great news Frank! Now smile, take a deep breath and move on to the next head scratcher.
How many hours did you put in thinking through the process before you actually got it done. I find that the hours I actually spend "wrenching" are usually wrapped up in five times that amount of time fixing it in my head.
Well worth the effort no matter what it costs. Good news is that the older I get the less I remember and in retrospect the project didn't seem to take very long at all.

Time goes so very fast... I usually get one good step done each day..
Because if I rush I make mistakes. Tomorrow comes so fast for me that It seems almost seemless anyway.

[FrankWest]

Finally, with the aid of a puller I got the damaged Timing gear off,
Put the nut back on the shaft and with the wrench I was able to turn the shaft.
Checked the distributor and observed the distributor was turning as I turned the shaft...the points were opening and closing.
Looks like my original Ford Timing gear finally gave out after 80 years.. Not bad for pre technological age "Plastic". I would like to see the plastic gears on my sears tractor last 80 years! Now the decision...Plastic or aluminum timing gear.
My biggest concern is longevity and sound. I know I will not be around in 80 years..
I just don;t want my 95 percent original car to sound like a Mix Master kitchen appliance.

[Mike B]

Well done Frank.

[Mart]

Frank, glad it seems like the cam and distributor are turning ok. Did you go beyond one complete turn?

Mart.

[FrankWest]

Yes I completely rotated the cam
6 or 7 times to see the points opening and closing

[FrankWest]

I want to thank everyone on here for there help. I could not have done it without your experienced know how. One last question.... I here a lot about suppliers of cheap timing gears....No Good.
Where are the best places to buy quality timing gears...
I don't want to replace the crank shaft gear...
If it is possible I would just like to replace the timing gear with the best quality available. Any suggestion would be very much appreciated.
.

[Terry,OH]

The gear material is much like Micarda.

[V8COOPMAN]

This gear recently discovered in a STILL-running Model A over on their forum. DD

[midgetracer]

The best gear available is a bronze gear that Dan McEachern (510-532-8228) makes and sells. His web site is [email protected]. I've used his gear in a B motor with an OHV conversion and it is run hard with no problems. It may be worth a call to him, but the laminated one that Snyders sells should last another 80 years in your car.

[FrankWest]

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Originally Posted by midgetracer

The best gear available is a bronze gear that Dan McEachern (510-532-8228) makes and sells. His web site is [email protected]. I've used his gear in a B motor with an OHV conversion and it is run hard with no problems. It may be worth a call to him, but the laminated one that Snyders sells should last another 80 years in your car.

Is there any reason why not to use an aluminum gear over laminated?
Noise, performance, unknown?

[FrankWest]

Good news as I hand turned the cam without the timing gear I watched the points and saw the closing and opening in the proper way...The gap is perfect...did not have to adjust///point close and touch and then open..
The engine sounded great before the timing wheel gave out....Looks like the problem was only the broken timing wheel.

[FrankWest]

Getting ready to put the timing gear cover back on. The only gasket I could find is a cardboard one. It that the material that is used in this application? Should this be coated with something or just apply a slight amount of contact cement to hold in place and tighten?

[DavidG]

Use gasket sealer instead of contact cement, either the silicone or non-silicone variety. The original paper gasket was not that thick. Could you be a little more specific about what you mean by "cardboard".

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Use gasket sealer instead of contact cement, either the silicone or non-silicone variety. The original paper gasket was not that thick. Could you be a little more specific about what you mean by "cardboard".

I think it is paper as you said, I bought from Mac's.
Is this the typical gasket sealer material that permetex sells?

[DavidG]

Yes.

[FrankWest]

It started right up.
Finally completed the work.
New Bronze timing gear does not yet make any extra noise.
Thanks for all your help.
Now, I will start looking at the brakes.
They, work, but want to check them out well before running the car on the road.
Not sure how to start checking them.... any suggestions?

[Mart]

Well done Frank.

Can't advise too much on the brakes, I've only ever had hydraulics.

But common sense prevails. Check all the linkages and pivots. Check that everything that should move does freely without excessive free play.

People with more mech brake experience will chime in, I'm sure.

Mart.

[1931 flamingo]

FRANK: CONGRATULATIONS ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Paul in CT

[DavidG]

Frank,

You've got to start acquiring some printed reference material. As you already know that while this forum is very helpful, that help is by the spoonful. The reprinted '32 service bulletins will inform you well about your brakes and how to adjust them (the '32 and '33-'34 brake system are virtually identical in all respects and in terms of what you you need to know about your brakes they are completely identical).

[FrankWest]

I have the service manuals, and several reprinted books also I have the original owners manuals for 4 cylinder and 1933, 1934 too.
My breaks function but. Luckily I live on a cul-de-sac so once I get plate on the car I can begin driving slowly around to check the functions better. The appearance on the brake housing plate cover is rust covered.

[Charlie Stephens]

This has probably already been covered but buy a good rear hub puller (or arrange to borrow one). The reproduction KR Wilson puller advertised in the V8 times comes to mind. Get a puller that pulls from the snout of the hub. If the hubs are properly installed (tight) and you try to use a cheap puller you desk damaging expensive parts.

Charlie Stephens

[FrankWest]

So you take the wheel off and then the break components are under the cover. The rust covers visible from under the car are not to be monkeyed with, right.

[V8COOPMAN]

Those "rust covers" are actually part of the brake thing-a-ma-jiggies. DD

[DavidG]

I second Charlie's advice, but do not start checking your brake system at the rear wheels. Start at the front where the hub and drum assemblies are easy to remove and replace. Pull them off one at a time and study what you see against what is shown in the illustration above and that in your service bulletins. Disconnect the brake rod where it attaches to the operating arm behind the brake backing plates and move it back and forth so that you see how the brakes operate and how the various parts relate to one another.

After you are confident that you understand how the brakes function, check the linings for both wear and contamination from grease or oil. Check also to see if the wearing surface on the inside of the brake drums is scored or pitted. If the linings are contaminated or worn down so that the rivet heads are no longer completely below the outer surface they need to be replaced. If they drums are scored or pitted, they should be turned down to a smooth surface (this has to be be done by someone who knows what they are doing as there is limit as to how far the drums can be turned down before they need to be replaced.) Check everything else exposed and attached to the brake backing plate for excessive wear as mechanical brakes can be good brakes, but only if all of the components are free of excessive wear. Now do the same thing for the other front wheel and only then tackle the rear wheels as removing the hubs can be a challenge as Charlie is suggesting.

Once you have checked out all four wheels, check for wear in the clevis pins (one on each end of each brake rod) and in the holes in which each clevis pin is inserted. Check for play in the brake cross shaft assembly on the center cross member (where all four brake rods attach). Wear in the cross shaft bushings is a common occurrence and its presence means that you will never get all four brakes working with the same effort until that wear is eliminated by replacing those bushings (there are better substitutes available today for the bushing material that Ford used originally).

Check for wear on all of clevis pins and their holes in the various arms on the cross shaft and on the rods to the brake pedal and hand brake. Replace any and all that are worn excessively. If the holes in the arms are worn excessively, they can be welded up and re-drilled to their original diameter or if only slightly worn drilled oversize to be used with new over-sized clevis pins (personally, I recommend the former and not the latter cure for wear).

That's enough of a to-do list to start with.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

I second Charlie's advice, but do not start checking your brake system at the rear wheels. Start at the front where the hub and drum assemblies are easy to remove and replace. Pull them off one at a time and study what you see against what is shown in the illustration above and that in your service bulletins. Disconnect the brake rod where it attaches to the operating arm behind the brake backing plates and move it back and forth so that you see how the brakes operate and how the various parts relate to one another.

After you are confident that you understand how the brakes function, check the linings for both wear and contamination from grease or oil. Check also to see if the wearing surface on the inside of the brake drums is scored or pitted. If the linings are contaminated or worn down so that the rivet heads are no longer completely below the outer surface they need to be replaced. If they drums are scored or pitted, they should be turned down to a smooth surface (this has to be be done by someone who knows what they are doing as there is limit as to how far the drums can be turned down before they need to be replaced.) Check everything else exposed and attached to the brake backing plate for excessive wear as mechanical brakes can be good brakes, but only if all of the components are free of excessive wear. Now do the same thing for the other front wheel and only then tackle the rear wheels as removing the hubs can be a challenge as Charlie is suggesting.

Once you have checked out all four wheels, check for wear in the clevis pins (one on each end of each brake rod) and in the holes in which each clevis pin is inserted. Check for play in the brake cross shaft assembly on the center cross member (where all four brake rods attach). Wear in the cross shaft bushings is a common occurrence and its presence means that you will never get all four brakes working with the same effort until that wear is eliminated by replacing those bushings (there are better substitutes available today for the bushing material that Ford used originally).

Check for wear on all of clevis pins and their holes in the various arms on the cross shaft and on the rods to the brake pedal and hand brake. Replace any and all that are worn excessively. If the holes in the arms are worn excessively, they can be welded up and re-drilled to their original diameter or if only slightly worn drilled oversize to be used with new over-sized clevis pins (personally, I recommend the former and not the latter cure for wear).

That's enough of a to-do list to start with.

Thanks for great info.
I will slowly learn..before I take anything apart.
It should be interesting to see how they work.
This is a great time learning about this fine old machine.
I love it.
Thanks for all your help and guidance...I would be dead in the water without your help.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

This has probably already been covered but buy a good rear hub puller (or arrange to borrow one). The reproduction KR Wilson puller advertised in the V8 times comes to mind. Get a puller that pulls from the snout of the hub. If the hubs are properly installed (tight) and you try to use a cheap puller you desk damaging expensive parts.

Charlie Stephens

Thanks charlie....
It is fun discovering things about this great old car.
I greatly appreciate your help.

[Mike in AZ]

have been following this from the first post....Frank, congrats on "hanging in there" and doing it yourself and getting your car back up and running. Thumbs up to everyone who contributed knowledge and instructions to help Frank. Very cool ....Mike

[CC33]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

So you take the wheel off and then the break components are under the cover. The rust covers visible from under the car are not to be monkeyed with, right.

That would be called a drum or hub. Order one of the Hub Pullers seen advertised in the V8 Times. They run about $200. Put the car up on good quality jack stands and do all 4 wheels. New brake spring kits and do dads will be in order. Check your brakes rods to make sure they are straight and have no bends in them.

[CC33]

1933 Brake Pics

[FrankWest]

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Originally Posted by CC33

1933 Brake Pics

Great photos! Thanks for taking the time to help me.
I really appreciate it.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Frank,

You've got to start acquiring some printed reference material. As you already know that while this forum is very helpful, that help is by the spoonful. The reprinted '32 service bulletins will inform you well about your brakes and how to adjust them (the '32 and '33-'34 brake system are virtually identical in all respects and in terms of what you you need to know about your brakes they are completely identical).

Thanks so much for the diagrams and photos.....Great help.

[CC33]

Frank,
I don't know what condition your fuel tank is in, but cutting in an inline fuel filter under the drivers rear wheel might be a good option for you. Some say to just put one under the hood. However I hate when you open the hood on a classic car and see inline fuel filters. Plus there is a safety reason for not placing them there.
You would need a small tube cutter, some rubber fuel line, clamps, and a filter. By placing it near the rear wheel, it is easy to replace and is unseen.
I have 2 spare filters you can have. PM me and I will make it happen.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by CC33

Frank,
I don't know what condition your fuel tank is in, but cutting in an inline fuel filter under the drivers rear wheel might be a good option for you. Some say to just put one under the hood. However I hate when you open the hood on a classic car and see inline fuel filters. Plus there is a safety reason for not placing them there.
You would need a small tube cutter, some rubber fuel line, clamps, and a filter. By placing it near the rear wheel, it is easy to replace and is unseen.
I have 2 spare filters you can have. PM me and I will make it happen.

Thanks a million for your offer..

[FrankWest]

The car is still running.
I am installing the tail lights and plan to register it this week...
Trying to get a 1933 license plate that the DMV will accept.
I have a brief video of the car starting but it is 30 mgs and they won't let me post it on here.

[FrankWest]

The car starts up fine each day...Once I complete the tail lights wiring I plan to register the car with New antique car plates and then change these over to real 1933 antique plates that the DMV will accept.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Frank,

You've got to start acquiring some printed reference material. As you already know that while this forum is very helpful, that help is by the spoonful. The reprinted '32 service bulletins will inform you well about your brakes and how to adjust them (the '32 and '33-'34 brake system are virtually identical in all respects and in terms of what you you need to know about your brakes they are completely identical).

This seems to be a good book for the brakes.. SEE ATTACHED PHOTO

It has 5 pages of drawings and gives measurements in setting up the spacings

No wonder the book was hard to understand...I was reading it upside down

[FrankWest]

Tail lights are installed and wired and working perfectly ...brake lights too.
I bought these wire clips from ray Naschiwitz and was able to clip the wires down except had problem using the clips alone the cross member running along the fuel tank. What are the usually attachment places for those clips?

[DavidG]

The tail lamp crossover wire clips were attached to the front lip of the fuel tank, not on the rear cross member.

[FrankWest]

Registered the car , Now ..Must wait form plates to arrive then will go for test run. Should I pour Champagne on the front fender before taking her out? Or will that take the paint off...Remember what do once said about Pepsi cola taking the paint of a car!

[Mart]

A small bottle of mineral water should do the trick.

Congrats on getting it to this stage.

Mart.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Mart

A small bottle of mineral water should do the trick.

Congrats on getting it to this stage.

Mart.

Thanks alot Mart!
Coming from a guy with your mechanical genius, it means a lot.
I will take some photo of the car on the road, and post them.

[dean333]

You have to wait for the plates just to take a test ride??? I'd be going nuts. Drive it!!

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

Thanks for great info.
I will slowly learn..before I take anything apart.
It should be interesting to see how they work.
This is a great time learning about this fine old machine.
I love it.
Thanks for all your help and guidance...I would be dead in the water without your help.

Looking for woven brake linings
checked Mac's
http://www.macsautoparts.com/store/b...ton-truck.html

They says these are for rear brakes???
Does the same size fit on the front drums too??

[JSeery]

Did you notice that the link you provided is for "Ford 1 Ton Truck" brake linings?

This might be of interest to you: http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=137156

The linings for a 33 are B 2021-B

[Bob C]

These are the one's for 1933. http://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_me...passenger.html

Bob

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Bob C

These are the one's for 1933. http://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_me...passenger.html

Bob

Does this part also fit on the shoes too, or is that another part??
I noticed Mac's has a roll of woven material for the shoes but they say truck for that rather than passenger.
I should be asking Mac;s rather than bothering you good guys.
But I figure you guys will know more than macs...sometimes they just sell stuff without and idea of how to use it.
In their catalog they still have not corrected the length of the 1933 model b car.

[Mart]

I'm pretty sure this would be what you want, Frank.

http://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_me...m+Brakes%0D%0A

Mart.

[FrankWest]

Mart, Then I guess I need 4 sections, 2 shoes and 2 drums, for each wheel right?

[DavidG]

The Mac's listing is for a complete set of eight linings for all four wheels (two per wheel).

[Mart]

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I would imagine the drums would be re-used.

Got it Frank? The set sold by Macs will do the whole car. It's just the linings and rivets, you reline your existing shoes.

Mart.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Mart

I would imagine the drums would be re-used.

Got it Frank? The set sold by Macs will do the whole car. It's just the linings and rivets, you reline your existing shoes.

Mart.

Thanks a million. I usually purchase the parts and then moll over for a while what I will have to do with them. I will try out my first run of the car when my license plate arrive next week, I hope. From, backing the car out of the garage and back into the garage, I know that I have some brakes at least. The c ar has been starting and running fine each day.
There is no extra engine noise from the bronze timing gear, I'm Glad.
The engine sounds great, to me at least. No different from when it had the fiber timing gear. My son said, the engine sounds like a v8???
I will let you know how the first run goes. I will take some photos. and post then on here.

[FrankWest]

Successfully completed First RUN! Car drove good, rattled a bit..old car!
Shifted good. Brakes ok. Took wife with me for first run...She liked it but said it was bumpy. Steering hard... like a 1966 corvette I drove once? I guess the covette had m no power steering also? Thanks everyone for your help! Will add some pictures later.

[satelite]

Great job Frank. You did well considering you had lots of advice from many sources. That's what great about this site, everyone wants to help. I owned a Model A Sedan for many years which had mechanical brakes which would stop on a dime. I used the Les Andrews Model A book as guidance. Arcing the shoes to the drum makes all the difference in the world. I did them by hand since they outlawed the use of arcing machines. Hang in there and keep learning first hand.
Don in SC