Roadster side curtain question

[Girl with wrench]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

OK, I was able to wade thru some yr old email from LBB.
I found a diagram that I was not able to find when I needed it, tho I doubt it would have changed what I did.
According to this, (which is for a DELUXE; the standard may be different) the top edge attaches to the irons (wood in your case I believe) via a cinch fastener. The male part of this is a protruding stub with a tiny locking lever at the tip. The female part of this is merely what I would call a grommet, the type which you find in a commercial tarp from harbor freight, etc. They call this part both a grommet or eyelet. Their PN for the 'eyelet' are A23-E for the grommet and A23-W for the accompanying washer. The male component will vary based on whether you are screwing into wood or metal, and how many 'eyelets' will attach to it (longer vs shorter stubs). For example A23-1W is 'single' to me meaning only one eyelet will fit on, and it has a wood screw base.

Their website has pix of these numbers. But you already have to know what you want before you look there.

To me, this type of fastener is kinda hokey and given how the curtains want to blow off and around when driving, the lift-a-dot would be better, or the boat snaps (which you can get in any hdwe store). The cinch method would be great if all the car did was sit there at a standstill. After I test drove my initial side curtain fastening I realized I was gonna have to do a lot more to keep them in place.

To make things more confusing, on the same catalogue page pg 81 under cinch fasteners they show the body socket method with corresponding male piece, which clearly can only be used on the door itself. To me this is in no way related to the rest of the cinch fasteners.

You need to do more research and decide for yourself.

Keep us posted.

Why this info is so hard to get out of them I have no idea. In my opinion they are stiffling themselves of potential business. For the very very few who would have the nerve to sew up their own curtains they are risking loosing the sale of the fasteners, eisenglass, and fabric.

I did persevere and bought all my supplies from them, but of course I wanted the special tan fabric; so that it would match the top I bought from them years earlier.

As I was initially wrestling with their patterns, I came to realize that the fasteners would never be in the right place unless I installed them myself. They want you to draw the position of the fasteners on the pattern for them.
Then, of course, if some don't line up, it is your fault for not marking in the correct place. This and several other issues is what triggered me to sew my own. Fortunately, Miles had a semester of upholstery under his belt from McPherson and he taught me to sew.

TbirdTbird -

Yes, my top irons (not wood) have one of those cinch fittings (machine base, threaded into top iron). The location of the cinch fitting looks perfect for the rear anchor point for the small panel above the door, but that doesn't help with the quarter panel. The fitting is so far forward that the quarter panels do not reach there. I agree that a Lift-a-dot fitting might hold the curtains better than that little spring loaded finger on the cinch fitting. I could change to the Lift-a-dot, but that still leaves the fitting in the wrong place. Maybe time for me to give in and use Velcro, but I'm still puzzled about how this worked originally.

[Keith True]

I didn't get it.But,somebody sent me one over a month ago and it just showed up in the last couple of days.For some reason I can no longer post pictures to this site either.I'll try to send you one and see if it works.

[tbirdtbird]

" The fitting is so far forward that the quarter panels do not reach there."

The irons may not be original, or who knows what happened over 80 yrs.
There are so many variations to top and side curtains because I think because upholstery is the weakest suit of the average restorer, so a lot of guessing goes on. And LBB helps perpetuate these innacuracies since they are so unwilling to share these details.

You may want to consider drilling and tapping your irons to suit. I believe the correct thread is 10-32. I had to add a couple snaps at the top of my curtains because there was precious little up there to hold them in place while driving. Again, they started out perfect for a car at a standstill.

Be forewarned: the irons seem to be very hard metal. Do not make your drill hole too small in diameter. Practice on a piece of equivalent thickness metal on your workbench. Use brand new super sharp taps. Go slow and reverse often, like every 1/2 turn. Use lube; i usually just use PB Blaster which I always have on hand for rusted bolts anyway.

A type of boat snap which you may not be aware of is what I call back-to-back. The local upholstery shop, where I bought some more traditional boat snaps, calls them 'gypsy' snaps. Instead of the usual finished 'button' or dome appearance on the outside of the canvas, there is another male component. This gives you female on the underside of the material, and male on the outside. This allows you to snap another piece of fabric on OVER what you just attached, using the usual male-female snaps on the outer piece of fabric. This can give you overlap of the curtains if you desire.

If Keith is having so much trouble posting pix, can another Barner post some pix for you? Calling all roadster owners!!!!

By the way, why not post a pic yourself of the arrangement of the fasteners which are troubling you
dave

[SAJ]

Originally Posted by Girl with wrench

I'm about to make a set of side curtains for my '31 Standard Roadster. After searching this site and the web, I still do not understand how the quarter panels attach to the top irons? There is a cinch fitting in the top iron, but it seems to be too far forward and the pictures I have found do not have enough details to help.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Girl with sewing machine

Hello Girl with Wrench,
Firstly, congrats on your roadster fabric roof paint formula. It should work well. I was in the care-care formulation business for many years. I still manufacture some washes , polishes, radiator flush and many many polyester products, so I feel qualified to comment thus.
I have an early RHD standard roadster, altered many years ago by a previous owner for more bling, and left like that because I quite like it, tho' I would never destroy originality myself.
It has "vinyl" roof, side curtains, rear quarter curtains, top boot and bag to hold them all. The side curtains are probably non-standard but work well. They have dome snaps along the steel bows, the door tops and to hold the rear quarter panels and the front of the top boot cover when folded down (male parts screwed in to the wooden tack rail behind the bench seat). The sheet metal ones are blind-riveted and the ones into wood are PK screwed. The front of the hood ("top" maybe to you in the US?) is clipped to the windscreen frame with dome snaps and the stanchions use lift-the-dot fasteners for security against the wind. The top ones are double-length to receive both the front end of the rear quarter windows and the side curtains, one on top of the other. This is different from other standard roadsters is see in NZ, because some do not have a top strip on the rear quarter windows, stretching forwards to the front screen stanchion. This strip on mine seals behind the side curtains which overlap it at the top and in turn are overlapped by a side skirt sewn into the top of the hood. This makes the whole thing completely weather proof in this area even at speed in the rain. The photos will show what I mean.
There are side mirrors screwed into the stanchions and the side curtains are slit and held by small straps and "buttons" I made from leather rivets to keep the splits closed over the mirror shanks. I didn't cut the splits and one is slightly misplaced and neither are bound as they should be to tidy the edges. I cannot sew well, though I do collect old sewing machines (typewriters, gramophones, machine tools, old scales and balances....etc etc. It's a lovely disease!).
My wife likes her side curtain on in cold weather, but I hardly ever apply mine, even in the rain, to keep plenty of air in the cab and prevent fogging up.
There is an extra dome snap on each side curtain at the top rear. This is to apply the curtains when parked at night or in the rain without having to fit the two curtain retainer bars into the doors, which saves a few minutes each time. They hold the curtains on well enough when parked and have to be unsnapped to open the doors, since they fasten the side curtains to the short top skirts (part of the top) which hang down half an inch or so outside the side curtains. These latter just flap out of the way when you open the doors and return into place over the side curtains with the wind when moving to keep rain from creeping inside from above. In a storm I would fit the rods into the side curtains for more security in high winds.
My roadster is non-original in snaps etc, but most similar roadsters I see in NZ vary in how the tops are fitted. Mine works very well in bad weather.

PS mixing my NZ and US terminology, “boot” is the cover for the folded down “hood”. Look carefully at the top strip sewn to the rear quarter panel, and see how it starts by clipping on the inside of the steel bow (after the first lift-the-dot clip outside on the windscreen front) and then moves to the outside where the circular cut out is. There is a snap on the outside of the vertical bow element, hidden in the "inside of left rear..." photo, and clipped to the inside of this top strip to fasten it in the middle. I hope this is clear. It is tricky to describe and photograph but can be seen if you count all the snaps on the "top strip quarter panel" photo as the second from the right, (snap facing "inwards")
I hope this helps
SAJ in NZ

[SAJ]

Hello Again, Girl with Wrench,
Here are two more pics plus a rotation of the annoying sideways pic I sent. They show the L.H side curtain fixed without the bar installed and the front snaps under the brow.
The large radial drill in the background has drilled out many A manifolds for B carbs. It has a 6 foot throat
SAJ in NZ.

[Girl with wrench]

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Hello SAJ - You have a beautiful car. Your radial drill - we call it a drill press - is not half bad, either! Thank you a million times over for sending the excellent photos and taking the time to write a good detailed description of your side curtains and attachment hardware. All makes perfect sense and is just what I needed. It's late here, but I'll write more tomorrow about progress and reciprocate with pictures.

Also, glad my paint recipe meets with your approval. Does this mean I can tell people that it has received international recognition??

[SAJ]

HI Girl With Wrench. Glad to help. Yes your paint does indeed have internationsl recognition now!! There will be many other NZ club members reading this too.
The drill in the pic is a bit different from a drill press. It stands 10 feet high and the radial arm with the head on it is 7 foot long and swings the drill head in a 6 foot arc around the pillar at max extension. It will take a 4 inch drill bit and drill a 3 inch hole with no pilot without a shudder. My cousin at Archdale's In England used to build them and demonstrated this to me.
I have several big drill presses too, but the heads on drill presses only move up and down, not in and out on an arm that swings as well. But you cannot see any of this in the photo taken in front of it.
It is just part of my collecting hobby but very useful too. This is too hard to type on my tablet where the cursor jumps around randomly.
Any more questions, please just ask.
SAJ in NZ
.

[Girl with wrench]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

" The fitting is so far forward that the quarter panels do not reach there."

The irons may not be original, or who knows what happened over 80 yrs.
There are so many variations to top and side curtains because I think because upholstery is the weakest suit of the average restorer, so a lot of guessing goes on. And LBB helps perpetuate these innacuracies since they are so unwilling to share these details.

You may want to consider drilling and tapping your irons to suit. I believe the correct thread is 10-32. I had to add a couple snaps at the top of my curtains because there was precious little up there to hold them in place while driving. Again, they started out perfect for a car at a standstill.

Be forewarned: the irons seem to be very hard metal. Do not make your drill hole too small in diameter. Practice on a piece of equivalent thickness metal on your workbench. Use brand new super sharp taps. Go slow and reverse often, like every 1/2 turn. Use lube; i usually just use PB Blaster which I always have on hand for rusted bolts anyway.

A type of boat snap which you may not be aware of is what I call back-to-back. The local upholstery shop, where I bought some more traditional boat snaps, calls them 'gypsy' snaps. Instead of the usual finished 'button' or dome appearance on the outside of the canvas, there is another male component. This gives you female on the underside of the material, and male on the outside. This allows you to snap another piece of fabric on OVER what you just attached, using the usual male-female snaps on the outer piece of fabric. This can give you overlap of the curtains if you desire.

If Keith is having so much trouble posting pix, can another Barner post some pix for you? Calling all roadster owners!!!!

By the way, why not post a pic yourself of the arrangement of the fasteners which are troubling you
dave

Dave, great explanation of the snap on top of snap- or gypsy snap - fitting. I have that fitting on the tack rail at the corner of the roof. Assumed it was to attach a boot (which I do not have). One more smidgeon of info and a mystery solved.

Also, thanks for step by step instructions on how to tap the top irons, but no need for me to install a new fitting. With your gypsy snap info and photos from SAJ, I figured out my existing cinch fitting in the top iron IS correct. Another teaspoon of information. Only a quart to go and I'll have side curtains!
Thanks for your help. Will be back for more soon.

[Tom from Drippin']

Attached (I hope) is a photo of clear side curtains I fabricated.

[tbirdtbird]

WoW!!!!
Gotta love it; nice job!!

I just looked up Dripping Springs because I had never heard of it. Man I have been so close so many times. If you make it to Johnson city you are there! What a beautiful area, I will have to check it out.

[Tom Wesenberg]

That's fantastic. Want to hang out in the frozen north and make a set for my Phaeton?

[Girl with wrench]

Tom from Drippin'
Wow, love your clear side curtains! I'm too far into making my semi-traditional version to turn back, but now wish I had thought to make a set like yours.
Thanks for photos. Being able to see through your panels has solved another mystery for me. I was still stumped about the shape of the door panel at the top of the stanchion.

[Barry B./ Ma.]

Originally Posted by Girl with wrench

Tom from Drippin'
Wow, love your clear side curtains! I'm too far into making my semi-traditional version to turn back, but now wish I had thought to make a set like yours.
Thanks for photos. Being able to see through your panels has solved another mystery for me. I was still stumped about the shape of the door panel at the top of the stanchion.

Maybe a combination of the two would be the best approach, using canvas for the edge with 2" canvas then the clear vinyl. I had the original style when I had my 29 roadster but only used them once due to the reduced visibility, on my 30 std. roadster I didn't order them but probably would if I could get them with more visibility as mine is a driver. I would think you'd want some material to protect the paint that's why I would prefer more canvas material near the snap area.

[tbirdtbird]

"but probably would if I could get them with more visibility as mine is a driver."

FWIW when I asked LBB if they could make the eisenglass larger they said they would make it as large as possible (whatever that is) but declined to tell me exactly what that was going to be. Another reason we sewed up our own