Days before adjustable lifters

[DWester]

I realize that to be able to adjust the lifters is superior to the old way, but I am curious just how it was done with the grinding method. I'm sure there's several here that have done it that way and I'd love to hear how it was done.

Darol

[Cecil/WV]

I don't think adjustable lifters are superior.

[denverslim]

The old fella that rebuilt all of my engines (and hundreds more) never liked adjustable lifters. He believed that they were too unstable, always coming out of spec, thus "damned adjustable lifters are always needing adjustment".
He would grind the valve stem to lengthen or weld on them to make them longer if needed to bring the valve length back to spec. I gotta say he was good at it and his rebuilds were among the best I've used...slim

[DWester]

I've been looking all over the internet for something about pre adjustable lifters and haven't been able to find anything except info on adjustables. I just assumed that it was the better way to go these days. I'm sure there's something out there, I just haven't stumbled on to it yet.

I really would like to learn more about the steps in which it was performed.

[Ross F-1]

The shop I used charges $100 for a valve job for adjustables, and $200 for non-adjustables. He told me he hasn't done one without adjustables in 10 years. But personally I'd go for the stock lifters if I had a good set, next time. What can go wrong with stock?

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

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Originally Posted by DWester

I realize that to be able to adjust the lifters is superior to the old way, but I am curious just how it was done with the grinding method. I'm sure there's several here that have done it that way and I'd love to hear how it was done.

Darol

To butt grind the valve for stock lifters you have to have a valve grinder with a butt grinder attachment, You cain't do on a bench grinder. If there to short you have to weld up the stem and grind it off. There's nothing to it if you have the equipment. Walt

[john mullen]

Ok hears the true old skool tech for non adjustable lifters.
there is a tool that you insert into the valve pocket . you set the cam on the heal and slid the tool in until it sets directly on the cam heal. there is a sliding 45 degree ring that you set right on to the newly ground valve seat. You then lock it in place with the t screw so it will not move . You then have another tool that has a 45 degree seat you insert the first tool into .On this receiver tool at the bottom is a micrometer that measures the total distance from the valve seat to the cam heal. then you subtract the valve lash clearance you wish and that is the length of the finished valve .If your valve is to long then you will know just how much to remove from the valve stem. there is a micrometer on the but grinding end of the proper type valve machine that you can set to cut just what needs to be removed .I'll take photos of the tools tomorrow and post them here. when a cam has been reground the base circle is reduced and some times you will need longer stems on the valve . 1.5 Chevy valves will do the job as they are 100 thousandths longer in the stem. however depending on how much was ground off the cam and valve seat will determine how long they need to be cut down..I hope this helps everyone understand how its done.. Look for photos tomorrow ....John

[Binx]

I was hoping you'd chime in John and describe that tool. It is way cool.

Lonnie

[cmbrucew]

My grandfather had an old Sunnen valve machine that ground stems. He replaced it with a Souix. About three times as big. Not sure if it would grind stems.

Bruce

works good
Lasts long time

[john mullen]

Good to see you post Binx. how are things with you....John

[Binx]

John, I'll PM you

Lonnie

[oldford2]

Well, after a few visits to Walt's shop I found a B & D valve machine. Just rebuilt a 52 Merc engine and butt ground the valve clearances. Fun and only screwed up one stem (sticky lifter). Engine will go on my test stand when I get home next month if the snow ever melts up north (8 more inches forecast for tomorrow).
John

[GOSFAST]

Below here are 2 shots of the attachment mentioned above, it makes grinding the stem lengths easy work. This is on a Kwik-Way valve grinder.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. It doesn't get much use here anynore, just about all our builds get the original Johnson tappets. It takes only about minute to set it up and as mentioned above, there are increments on the feed wheel!

[rooboy]

I was, and still are, a strong supporter of non adjustable tappets...However, after useing a set made by Flatattack in Australia, i'm now a convert...They've been installed for around 4yr's and have not moved ...being checked twice in that period...
Because of the cam, the valves stems needed to be built up......
so i made a setup broadly based on the above photo's...but used a bench type post drill with the jig bolted to the drill pad, and a very hard 1 1/2" diam. stone in the chuck...A photo was posted on the forum some years ago, but it copped a few sniggers and laugh's...It probably wasn't very pretty to look at..... but it worked......
Guess who had the last laugh....?

[scooder]

Originally Posted by john mullen

Ok hears the true old skool tech for non adjustable lifters.
there is a tool that you insert into the valve pocket . you set the cam on the heal and slid the tool in until it sets directly on the cam heal. there is a sliding 45 degree ring that you set right on to the newly ground valve seat. You then lock it in place with the t screw so it will not move . You then have another tool that has a 45 degree seat you insert the first tool into .On this receiver tool at the bottom is a micrometer that measures the total distance from the valve seat to the cam heal. then you subtract the valve lash clearance you wish and that is the length of the finished valve .If your valve is to long then you will know just how much to remove from the valve stem. there is a micrometer on the but grinding end of the proper type valve machine that you can set to cut just what needs to be removed .I'll take photos of the tools tomorrow and post them here. when a cam has been reground the base circle is reduced and some times you will need longer stems on the valve . 1.5 Chevy valves will do the job as they are 100 thousandths longer in the stem. however depending on how much was ground off the cam and valve seat will determine how long they need to be cut down..I hope this helps everyone understand how its done.. Look for photos tomorrow ....John

Looking forward to the pics John, not seen the proper two measuring tools.
Martin.

[Mart]

Martin, I found a guy with a set of those tools for sale at Enfield Pageant. he wanted a bit too much for them though. (£50-ish?)

I know, I'm tight.

I set up my first flathead with the non adjustables NOS from Wally Wheatley. To my mind, they make a lot of sense when used in conjunction with the mushroom foot valves. Big contact area equals minimum wear. I've used adjustables in the other motors (not that many) but did strip a 59A that had 8BA valves and non adjustables and I could see where the smaller valve stems had worn into the lifters.

Incidentally, the NOS lifters bore the Ford description "pushrod".

Mart.

[john mullen]

Mart! I love your avatar. I chuckle every time I see your post....

[Ralph Moore]

I'm wondering how Ford did it at the factory, with so many engines being built I bet they were quick at doing a valve setup or did everything just fit?

[scooder]

Mart, I must be tight aswell, I've got a Black and Decker Valve Master, but I don't think I'd pop £50 for the measurement tools.
Its a great machine, Every car I own has got nice fresh valve seats and valves. I also have Wolf valve seat grinder.
I like the stock lifters, their so light and stay in spec for a long time.
The 8BA that you speak of, did it have the correct 8BA lifters with the small flat on them, or early ones with the big flat for the mushroom valve tips?
I like the push rod name for them, also sparking plugs and starting motor.
Martin.

[Russ/40]

Originally Posted by scooder

Looking forward to the pics John, not seen the proper two measuring tools.
Martin.

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/r...0/valvemic.jpg.

Here it is. Two of them

[Bubsyouruncle]

Ford probably had the valve assemblies sorted by length within thousandths. The assembler would measure the depth from valve seat to lifter and install the appropriate assembly. Of course it would take a lot of crank cranking to get all the valves in.

[cmbrucew]

My guess is the factory used valves all the same length.
All the seats were ground the same.
Cam lobes all the same.
Sound familiar.

Bruce


Works good
Last long time

[1937pickup]

Never having done a flathead non-adjustable lifter adjustment I have some questions. To measure the clearance do you have to fix the valve guide and spring in place? It would seem to me that just pushing the valve in place with your hand would not put enough pressure on valve into the seat. Then you have to pull the assembly apart and grind the valve stem. I know once its done it done-but does seem like a lot of work.

[john mullen]

OK here are the photos of the tools needed to measure the valve lengths.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by 1937pickup

Never having done a flathead non-adjustable lifter adjustment I have some questions. To measure the clearance do you have to fix the valve guide and spring in place? It would seem to me that just pushing the valve in place with your hand would not put enough pressure on valve into the seat. Then you have to pull the assembly apart and grind the valve stem. I know once its done it done-but does seem like a lot of work.

1- The guide needs to be in to check the clearance but not the spring.
2- Yes, hand pushing the valve down is plenty adequate for checking.

Once you get the hang of it you can do pretty fast.
The more you do, the faster you get until you finally cross over and
all you have to do is look at them and they do themselves.

[Mart]

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^^^^

lol!

[john mullen]

Hey Pete! How many will I have to do to cross over???? LOL ....I have been doing them for a while now and haven't gotten very fast yet....I may not have enough years left to get there LOL...

[37coop]

Originally Posted by Mart

Martin, I found a guy with a set of those tools for sale at Enfield Pageant. he wanted a bit too much for them though. (£50-ish?)

I know, I'm tight.

I set up my first flathead with the non adjustables NOS from Wally Wheatley. To my mind, they make a lot of sense when used in conjunction with the mushroom foot valves. Big contact area equals minimum wear. I've used adjustables in the other motors (not that many) but did strip a 59A that had 8BA valves and non adjustables and I could see where the smaller valve stems had worn into the lifters.

Incidentally, the NOS lifters bore the Ford description "pushrod".

Mart.

Walley at Nordian , they were the days and I still do enfield every year ,

[HamerAuto]

any of the old timers disliked the adjustables lifters and preferred the factory non-adjustable. I have a couple of engines that have 85,000 miles on them with nary a noise out of them.

[scooder]

Thanks for pics Russ and John, I'm gonna go make me some measuring tools.
Haven't done Enfield for many moons. And really miss talking sh#t With Wally for hours.
Martin Tees Esq.
As walley used to put on his typewriter written correspondence.

[john mullen]

scooder! I'm wondering how are you going to make those measuring tools. keep us posted....

[scooder]

When I get to doing it, I could do a tech thread about it.
Again cheers for the pics, I may need to ask you some questions while I'm in the process. They may not be exactly reproduction, but same function and do the same job, but I'll know more when I'm actually doing it.
Cheers,
Martin.

[DWester]

Yes, thank you so much for the pictures and all the great information on this process. I believe that I'll keep my old lifters and make a go of it. They look to be in great shape so I should be alright. Being my first flathead build, there's lots to learn. It's nice to have this forum. We'll see how I do.

You guys are great!!

[Pete]

Originally Posted by DWester

Yes, thank you so much for the pictures and all the great information on this process. I believe that I'll keep my old lifters and make a go of it. They look to be in great shape so I should be alright. Being my first flathead build, there's lots to learn. It's nice to have this forum. We'll see how I do.

You guys are great!!

What ever lifters you use, if they are not new, be sure to have them refaced.

[DWester]

Thanks! I'll do that. Something that an experienced machine shop can take care of?

[Pete]

Originally Posted by DWester

Thanks! I'll do that. Something that an experienced machine shop can take care of?

Only if they have a lifter grinder.

[john mullen]

As an alternative you can still find the stock (push rods) as ford called them around from some of the flathead venders. They are cheaper than having them resurfaced. I found some nos ones at Joe Smith Early Ford Parts in Richmond Va .... I like the original set up non adjustable mostly for the cost.. I let the customer decide what type they want... Stock pushrods/lifter's $30.00 to $50.00 tops . Good brand adjustable's $200.00 + ..$$$$$. both work quite well if done right...

[oldford2]

"
Re: Days before adjustable lifters
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWester
Thanks! I'll do that. Something that an experienced machine shop can take care of?

Only if they have a lifter grinder"

Well, I have seen many worn lifters that have a shallow groove worn in by the cam (maybe .001) which indicates that the lifter never rotated. So for a plain old street engine I am thinking that a flat grind might give many miles before it wore out of adjustment. JMO. What do you think Walt/Ron? I don't know if new solid or adjustable lifters have a convex grind?
John

[john mullen]

In my cheep days!! LOL I have lapped them if they were not to bad but it takes a lot of time. I also in my (cheep days) chucked them up in the lathe and glued some sand paper to the head of a smooth valve in the drill chuck attachment on the lathe tail stock and running the cross feed back and forth across the bottom of the lifter. just don't try to make it in one pass as it tears up the sandpaper...but again they / lifters are cheep if you look for them.. I hope this helps...John

[Pete]

Originally Posted by oldford2

"
Re: Days before adjustable lifters
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWester
Thanks! I'll do that. Something that an experienced machine shop can take care of?

Only if they have a lifter grinder"

Well, I have seen many worn lifters that have a shallow groove worn in by the cam (maybe .001) which indicates that the lifter never rotated. So for a plain old street engine I am thinking that a flat grind might give many miles before it wore out of adjustment. JMO. What do you think Walt/Ron? I don't know if new solid or adjustable lifters have a convex grind?
John

Flat is WRONG. All new lifters are tapered to match the taper on the cam.
If a lifter wasn't rotating, something was wrong on assembly.

And for the poofteenth time, lifters are tapered on the face, NOT spherical.

"Been in the cam business 60 years"

[oldford2]

Pete,
O K, I respect your 60 years of cam experience. Wow, you must be as old as me. Now, I did not say a flat grind was correct, only that for a street driver and backyard mechanic that if you did not have access to a lifter grinder that a flat grind will work. And I stand corrected on a "convex" grind. How much taper from edge to center? If it is a taper, I think I can reface on my valve grinder?? What do you think?
John

[Pete]

The taper on a one inch lifter is close to .0002.
With the proper modifications, you could do them on a valve grinder.

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

Originally Posted by Pete

The taper on a one inch lifter is close to .0002.
With the proper modifications, you could do them on a valve grinder.

How would you do that Pete with a valve grinder? Would it have a tapper attachment on the butt end of the grinder and a way to spin the lifter? And maybe a fine stone. Walt

[Ronnie]

Spherical mentioned here. Old Harvey made cams for many years.

http://www.cranecams.com/bulletins_listview.php?s_id=4 Just say-in.

https://www.crower.com/media/pdf/cam_book.pdf Page 4 here mentions spherical face ground on a taper. The Crower crew are no strangers to cam business.

http://www.iskycams.com/pdfcatalog/2004-05/page192.pdf Page 3 tells a story also

Its not Ed's first rodeo either.


R

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Walt Dupont--Me.

How would you do that Pete with a valve grinder? Would it have a tapper attachment on the butt end of the grinder and a way to spin the lifter? And maybe a fine stone. Walt

The one I saw had the valve facing end converted to handle lifters.
It used Jacobs Rubberflex collets to hold the lifter.(still available)
Take a look at a picture of a Storm Vulcan model 901 or 902 lifter facer or a Sunnen model 6700 and you will get an idea of what is needed.

[Pete]

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Originally Posted by Ronnie

Spherical mentioned here. Old Harvey made cams for many years.

http://www.cranecams.com/bulletins_listview.php?s_id=4 Just say-in.

https://www.crower.com/media/pdf/cam_book.pdf Page 4 here mentions spherical face ground on a taper. The Crower crew are no strangers to cam business.

http://www.iskycams.com/pdfcatalog/2004-05/page192.pdf Page 3 tells a story also

Its not Ed's first rodeo either.
R

Contrary to what many pictures show on the internet and books, LIFTERS ARE NOT GROUND SPHERICAL.
If you think about it, that would make the contact between the lifter and cam a SINGLE POINT contact which would make the unit pressure extremely high.
When Isky was developing the 404 grind he tried spherical face lifters first, to eliminate the need for keying the lifter as it is done now.
THOSE LIFTERS DIDN'T LAST LONG ENOUGH TO TIME THE CAR
IN.(2 laps)

The original Ford drawings show a 96 inch RADIUS on the flathead V8
lifters, HOWEVER, Ford never owned any spherical grinding equipment.
They faced them TAPERED, not only because it was proper engineering practice but because of the prohibited cost of spherical/orbital grinding equipment.
We can only speculate as to why the draftsman called out a radius instead of taper. Maybe he figured an 8 foot radius was almost flat anyway. In any case it wouldn't have been flat enough to work.

[Ronnie]

beatdeadhorse5.gif

I'm done

R

[Russ/40]

I think Pete is dead on with his observation. I do know that every lifter I have seen that was resurfaced was tapered. Its obvious when observing the grinding marks.
I also believe a small percentage of the regrind cams, other than Pete's, have the lobes ground for a tapered lobe. That is the difference between a parts vendors regrinds and Pete's regrinds.

[john mullen]

Originally Posted by Pete

The taper on a one inch lifter is close to .0002.
With the proper modifications, you could do them on a valve grinder.

Not trying to start a fire storm hear I'm just curious and want to learn more........ How long would it take to wear off .0002 off the lifter face before they become flat. ??? My guess Is the taper is a method to keep the edge of the lifter from digging in to the came lobe during the first few minuets of the brake in ? or is it a way to put a more aggressive ramp on the cam and not have the lifter dig in to the lobe by using a ball face / tapered lifter? I'm thinking it would not stay tapered very long before becoming flat with the heavy spring pressures used on todays cam's.
I also thought that the cam lobe was offset from the center of the lifter to cause it to rotate. I just can't see a taper on the cam and then another taper on the lifter not having a high pressure point causing premature wear or even failure of the cam or the lifter.... what is your take on this?

[Pete]

Originally Posted by john mullen

Not trying to start a fire storm hear I'm just curious and want to learn more........ How long would it take to wear off .0002 off the lifter face before they become flat. ??? My guess Is the taper is a method to keep the edge of the lifter from digging in to the came lobe during the first few minuets of the brake in ? or is it a way to put a more aggressive ramp on the cam and not have the lifter dig in to the lobe by using a ball face / tapered lifter? I'm thinking it would not stay tapered very long before becoming flat with the heavy spring pressures used on todays cam's.
I also thought that the cam lobe was offset from the center of the lifter to cause it to rotate. I just can't see a taper on the cam and then another taper on the lifter not having a high pressure point causing premature wear or even failure of the cam or the lifter.... what is your take on this?

It probably would take 100000 miles to wear the lifter down .0002.
Take a close look at the 2 drawings on my previous post. Most used lifters even after many miles will still have some taper left.
The taper and the offset lifter bore are to keep the lifter rotating.
This makes equal wear over the whole lifter face.
Most people have seen a lifter that wasn't rotating come out of a rebuild core. It either has a big cup worn in it or a deep groove through the middle. The cam lobe is likewise kaput.

[john mullen]

I can see how the lifter would ware on the same plane as the taper when the cam is ground on the same plane . I'm just wondering how many cam grinders use this method? I guess you had best buy your cam and lifters from the same place? I wonder if that is why so many cams are turned to junk during the break in? It seems that the taper would not be needed if the cam is offset to the C/L of the lifter bore. It would seem to have more contact area than the drawing shows on the tapered ones.


and why would they need to be ground on a taper if the cam is offset to the lifter bore as shown ? would it not be better to be flat and have more contact area than what is shown in drawings.. it seems weaker to do the taper..

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by DWester

Thanks! I'll do that. Something that an experienced machine shop can take care of?

Hey Darol,
Pete lives just north of you. He also is an ole cam maker/grinder. Did mine...cam and lifters at same time, so as to put proper faces that matched,eh ! Good luck.

[JWL]

The crown of the Flathead lifter is not .0002. From edge to center it is about .0012. Yes, lifters were ground with a spherical crown and still are according to (what was) TRW engineering department.

When I regrind lifters I do not have the CNC or orbital grinding equipment so the result is a tapered face. I believe this is adequate and, as posted above, might even have some advantages.

[DWester]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey Darol,
Pete lives just north of you. He also is an ole cam maker/grinder. Did mine...cam and lifters at same time, so as to put proper faces that matched,eh ! Good luck.

Thanks for the heads up Hardtimes. That's good to know. I'm amazed at the depth that this thread has gone. I'm learning quite a bit more than I had expected. Amazing the talent here.

[john mullen]

Originally Posted by JWL

The crown of the Flathead lifter is not .0002. From edge to center it is about .0012. Yes, lifters were ground with a spherical crown and still are according to (what was) TRW engineering department.

When I regrind lifters I do not have the CNC or orbital grinding equipment so the result is a tapered face. I believe this is adequate and, as posted above, might even have some advantages.

Let me get this straight .. If a lifter were ground with a crown on it then the cam lobe needs to be ground with a concave and slightly angled face to match the lifter face, added with the cam lobe offset to the lifter bore centerline ? How the heck are these two surfaces going to line up that well? If there's even a slight movement with the cam moving forward or back in the block this would screw up the alignment between the two moving parts. Somehow this just doesn't sound wright to me from an engineering standpoint. I can see the (taper) working ok as any loss of misalignment would only cause a loss or gain of lash clearance. The crowned lifter idea leaves me to wonder who came up with that idea. They would have to stay in perfect alignment all the way around the cams surface. I just don't see this happening. No disrespect intended hear but this just sounds unbelievable.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by DWester

Thanks for the heads up Hardtimes. That's good to know. I'm amazed at the depth that this thread has gone. I'm learning quite a bit more than I had expected. Amazing the talent here.

Your more than welcome ! Yeah, when you get to know a lot of the guys herein....wow the talent (hidden by computer contact at times) ! You get the feeling that the most learned are grumpy old curmugeons (?), but not grumpy at all Why can't I have neighbors like them

[john mullen]

I have a question ... After looking at the drawing's posted closely. Why would you grind the taper in the cam and lifters? It looks to me like it adds side load to the lifter and bore adding heat and friction. this idea creates side load although it's a small amount (multiplied times 16) it would be unwanted added heat and ware.. Someone Skool me on why you do this

[john mullen]

^^^^^^ Anybody ???

[john mullen]

I have to admit that I screwed up hear.. After going back and re reading the entire thread and all the attachments I must say sorry my bad and apologize to all who posted the good info that I overlooked. A special thanks to fordors for the pm that mentioned what I missed . Thanks fordors I get it now ...Thanks everyone ...John