1930 Brakes

[Ron52]

Time to ask the professionals. My Brakes they do not do too well. Press hard there's that moment of sponge like feeling (stepping on a rubber ball) push harder and the brakes slow you down to a stop, which takes too much time. Can't get them to lock up no matter how tight i adjust them. Still that sponge feeling. Tired to adjust by the manual (3 Steps with board), can't seem to get them right. All brakes are new from two years very little miles 500 or so. Over time Went from slow stopping to very little reliability. Any suggestions? check the middle arm where the rods are hooked up to, straight up and down. the front rod arm has a small lean forward. Please make comments, i am a new ford owner and need help. Any and all comments on this subject are welcome. I am in Italy.

[cpf240]

If your brakes break, that is not good, but if they brake, that is good.

[Ron52]

Thanks cpf240 I needed that. Any comments on the issue Brakes?

[Charlie Stephens]

How far over are your brake drums? That is the first thing I would suspect. You should put your general location in your profile.

Charlie Stephens

[Ron52]

Charlie, where do I get this information on location of Drums? They do look high.

[Curtis in MA]

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If you have Les Andrew's handbook it tells you the minimum thickness of the drums.
If they are to thin the drum is expanding instead of stopping. Finding this involves taking the drums off and measuring the thickness.
The easier things to check are if all the linkages are tight. When you step on the pedal is the movement taking up slack or moving the brakes. Are the adjustment wedges turned in so the first movement is engaging the brakes.

[700rpm]

What was actually done on the brakes two years ago? The whole system, or only the linings? With mechanical brakes, everything has to be tight and right.

Also, what is your brake lining? I have found the original woven lining to be more effective than the bonded type.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

What was actually done on the brakes two years ago? The whole system, or only the linings? With mechanical brakes, everything has to be tight and right.

Also, what is your brake lining? I have found the original woven lining to be more effective than the bonded type.

This comment is spot on. If just linings were replaced, you really might not have done very much to improve your brake system.

There are a lot of moving parts, some that could be wornout, in your Model A’s braking system.

[abachman3]

I had similar brake issues awhile back. A friend came over and we went completely through the adjustments and now have great braking capabilities... no more gliding through red lights! Take the brake rods loose and see where the position of the levers is, fronts should lean about 15 degrees forward... add 'pills' is necessary to get the correct setting there. Then attach the brake rods and begin adjusting each wheel until yo get some drag. Now begin testing with the step board. It takes awhile and two people make it better. Get them properly adjusted and the will work well.

[Ron52]

curtis I have the Les Andrew"s handbook. I will start with the Pedal movement first. Then I will remove all the Drums and review the brakes. I do know that the shoes are not the same, The right is woven and other side is solid bonded type. Could this make a difference?

[Curtis in MA]

Yes. They are not the same and will act different but should still stop you.

[Ron52]

All break parts in the hub were replaced from what I see on the front. However, one never really knows until the Drums are pulled and looked at. Appears all the Pins have been replaced, they look new on the rods.

[Ron52]

Probably the front Arm may need to be leaned more to the front, may be 5% now, not 15. ABACHMAN what is PILLS? where do they go? I did disconnect the brake rod at that arm point. There was all play in the arm until I moved in from Forward position to about 5% almost straight up. Then and only then could I adjust the brake adjusting wedge from all the way in, back to half way as all the other wheels are. The adj Wedge was all the way in and no breaks. Moved the arm back to almost straight and could get the wheel to lock with the wedge adjuster. Guess I have to go back there again and move the arm back down to 15 % But how do I make the brakes catch at that point?

[Kevin in NJ]

First step is to take the drums off and look.

Where are the shoes touching, how much of the shoes are touching?

If the shoes are not centered or arched to fit the drums then you will never have full braking.

There are many questions that could be asked. I think pictures of the shoes and drums and such would help people figure out what is going on in there. We would need to see the face of the shoes to see where the contact is.

[Ron52]

All break parts in the Drum were replaced from what I see on the front. However, one never really knows until the Drums are pulled and looked at. Appears all the Pins have been replaced, they look new on the rods.

[WHN]

If you really want to make things right, your going to have to check everything, everything.

Just for conversation, if I had found different style linings on a car, I would assume that other things could have been questionably done.

Also, keep in mind, that there are different views on whether the brake board is the best way to adjust your brakes.

The good thing is that once they are done correctly. They will last a long time.

[Ron52]

It is too late tonight for pictures. Tomorrow I will take pictures and post them here. I think from what I am getting on here tonight that I need to get that arm at 15% and have some one step on the brake peddle and check if the shoes are moving, then go from there, perhaps I need an adjustment some where on the arm to the brake shoes. Learned that pills need to possibly be added some where on the arm to take up slack to have the brakes move at the 15%?

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by Ron52

Charlie, where do I get this information on location of Drums? They do look high.

I am not sure I understand your response. What I meant was you should put your general location in your profile so if you live close to some brake experts people can send you to them. You are going to have to take your drums to a machine shop and have their diameter measured. It was originally 11 inches. Cast iron drums were 11.060 max but I don't remember seeing a number for the steel drums.

Charlie Stephens

[Curtis in MA]

In the Bratton's catalogue Pills are called Front Brake Shims.

[Curtis in MA]

Pills go inside the drum between the operating pin and the brake wedge.

[Ron52]

Curtis I am going to have to study that subject Pills, to properly understand the movement there. That could explain why the Brake adj wedge was all the way in at the 15% arm position and no brakes. Seems like the best place to start. does it sound like I need more Pills?

[Standing Elk]

Ron, I am far from being an expert but just finished a complete rebuild on the brakes on my 30 coupe. I did replace everything on all four wheels, and after the rebuild I have excellent brakes. One thing that I did that I did not see mentioned above, unless I missed it, was to adjust the clevises on the ends of the brake rods on all four wheels, so the pin will just slips in when the slack is pulled out of the actuating arm. This allows all four brakes, when adjusted correctly, to be applied evenly. Good luck

[JBill]

Originally Posted by Ron52

Curtis I am going to have to study that subject Pills, to properly understand the movement there. That could explain why the Brake adj wedge was all the way in at the 15% arm position and no brakes. Seems like the best place to start. does it sound like I need more Pills?

The "pills" are little cup-like shims that go in that dimple in the top of the actuating wedge where the brake rod fits. And yes, they could help you get to the 15% forward lean you want. One single pill might well be enough. You don't want a bunch of them in there. Check to see if there is already something in there. Use an ice pick. They are sometimes hard to detect since they fit pretty snug.

[700rpm]

Andrews discusses pills (shims) on p. 1-39 of the red book.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Start by putting the same linings on the front, and the same style on the rear, instead of 4 on one side and 4 on the other side. Woven grip better, so the car will pull to the side with woven linings as they are now set up.


Go by the brake adjustment procedure in the SERVICE BULLETINS, and you should have good brakes if the parts aren't worn out.


Where are you located?

[Bob C]

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X2 what Tom said. Do you have steel drums or cast iron, have the brake roller
tracks been rebuilt, have the brake shoes been centered??

Bob

[Curtis in MA]

In his first post he says he's in Italy.

[Purdy Swoft]

Do a ford barn search for brake adjustment and setup .I have posted this operation dozens of times .

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

You are going to have to take your drums to a machine shop and have their diameter measured. It was originally 11 inches. Cast iron drums were 11.060 max but I don't remember seeing a number for the steel drums.
Charlie Stephens

According to the Service Bulletins, page 514, "Under no circumstances must any attempts be made to turn down brake drums..." Maybe that is why you don't see any numbers for steel drums.

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by Ron52

All break parts in the hub were replaced from what I see on the front. However, one never really knows until the Drums are pulled and looked at. Appears all the Pins have been replaced, they look new on the rods.

Ron, please do not confuse “replaced”with “rebuilt”. Simply replacing parts in the brake system does not necessarily make the system effective, nor rebuilt. It is a complex mechanical problem, and takes very thorough work to make the brake system truly “rebuilt” and safe. It can be done, and is usually within the scope of the abilities for most owners. Just make sure everything is fit tight and correctly.

[Ron52]

T B lots of slack in the right actuating arm front. To remove all the slack makes the arm straight up and down, however the book calls for 15%. Any comment please anyone..

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by Ron52

T B lots of slack in the right actuating arm front. To remove all the slack makes the arm straight up and down, however the book calls for 15%. Any comment please anyone..

Have you read Andrews’s chapter on brakes in his red book yet? You said you had it, I believe. Many of your questions are addressed there, along with step by step instructions.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Ron52

T B lots of slack in the right actuating arm front. To remove all the slack makes the arm straight up and down, however the book calls for 15%. Any comment please anyone..

If the rods are worn down, then I'd buy new ones.
That's all it took to make my levers slant forward at 15*.
1 or 2 pills in the wedge can also make the lever slant forward.

[Ron52]

I can see from all the assistance that I got, that I just have to pull all parts and check, Check and Check again. I had less sponge action after adjusting the acuating Bar on the front. Brakes stop better, but there is still that moment of sponge feeling and I think it will new resolved with centering of the breaks, at least checking this condition and Operating Pin needs Pills. Thanks to everyone who responded to my need. Now I will get to work in the Les Andrews book and examining all issues. Hope I have the ability to understand this hobby. Sure would not like to let this thing beat me.
thanks again.

[700rpm]

You’ll be fine. Read the books suggested, go slowly, ask questions about parts you don’t understand. Thousands of us, maybe all of us, have been right where you are now. The Model A is very simple, but don’t think that means it does not require careful work.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by Ron52

I can see from all the assistance that I got, that I just have to pull all parts and check, Check and Check again. I had less sponge action after adjusting the acuating Bar on the front. Brakes stop better, but there is still that moment of sponge feeling and I think it will new resolved with centering of the breaks, at least checking this condition and Operating Pin needs Pills. Thanks to everyone who responded to my need. Now I will get to work in the Les Andrews book and examining all issues. Hope I have the ability to understand this hobby. Sure would not like to let this thing beat me.
thanks again.

It looks like more of a job than it really is. Just take your time, and no short cuts.

Once your worn part problems are taken care of. The adjusting will seem easy.

No short cuts, check everything. These cars were made to be serviced by there owners. 90 years of use, Henry had it right. Enjoy.

[CarlG]

If all else fails, send everything to Randy Gross. You will get back what looks like factory new. Still need to have everything else up to snuff though.

[kimlinh]

Ron- Did you replace the drums? The new cast iron drums are much better than the old steel drums. Also another thing to check is your brake rods. bent rods will cause spongy brakes. Don't ask how I know this.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Are your brake rods STRAIGHT?

[kimlinh]

Yes- are your break rods straight? I had one with a slight bend in it. ( don't know how it got bent) however I adjusted the brakes with the bent rod and didn't notice it until checking the poor braking. the rod would straighten out as the pedal was pressed. This limited the amount of pressure to the shoes.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by kimlinh

Yes- are your break rods straight? I had one with a slight bend in it. ( don't know how it got bent) however I adjusted the brakes with the bent rod and didn't notice it until checking the poor braking. the rod would straighten out as the pedal was pressed. This limited the amount of pressure to the shoes.

Chief, my Dad, taught me the "fine art" of straightening rods with a hammer & a cross tie.
Bill Straightasanarrow

[jhowes]

Ok bill, what's a cross tie?

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by jhowes

Ok bill, what's a cross tie?

A RAILROAD TIE, or POOR MANS' ANVIL. (:-l)