Babbitt or inserted engine ? ? ?

[1930.68B]

I would like to hear some pros and cons of having the engine with the original babbitt rods and mains versus having them inserted with modern style inserts.
When the car is completed it will be driven locally with very little touring. When our son retirees in about 10 years he may do more touring than we plan on doing.
Your thoughts and experiences would be appreciated.

[Big hammer]

Each has it's own pro's and con's, may I suggest picking an engine rebuilder and then go with what they use! I feel it's more important picking a rebuilder and use what they are most familiar with using.

[wrndln]

I have the same dilemma about whether to babbitt or insert the engine for my 29 CCPU I am restoring. Babbitting is getting very expensive and finding a shop to do it is getting harder all the time. So far I am leaning toward the insert route and will probably go that route. There is a local fellow that does inserted engines and knows what he is doing. Babbitting also requires rod and main bearing shimming and down the road, reshimming. From what I have heard, inserts never require shimming or reshimming unless the inserts are worn out after many miles. I have two babbitted engines and shimming the bearings are a pain.
Rusty Nelson

[1928Pickuppain]

I'm curious about pros and cons. In my mind getting inserted bearing only meen's ease of rebuilding when time comes. No rebabiting work needed just order parts and run. I'm sure there's a lot more to it to this so I'm hoping to hear it out.

[Kahuna]

I, too, would like to know of any "cons" to an insert bearing engine.

[Kevin in NJ]

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Either works fine if it is done properly by an experienced shop.

Babbitt has the advantage in that it fails gently with warning and can deal with more dirt over time.

Inserts fail quick and will leave you stranded.

Inserts failing can be difficult to repair the block and you will likely hurt the crank.

If you spend the money for a full and correct rebuild neither will be a problem for you. You should expect 50,000 or more miles out of a properly rebuilt engine.

[Marshall V. Daut]

At the risk of sounding like a smart *ss - and to save everyone's time plowing this field again - do a search of this forum using "Babbitt" or "Insert bearings" or even "Inserts". A TON of relevant discussion threads will come up that will answer all questions asked so far in this new thread. I doubt that much has changed since these previous threads were posted, especially opinions.
I can see arguments in favor of both types of bearings. However, with the experienced, knowledgeable Babbitt pouring guys becoming fewer and fewer each year, one has to consider what the future holds for our engines. Will the expertly-rebuilt Babbitt engine of today be rebuildable as such in 10 years? Who will still be around to do it? Will the EPA put the kaibash on heating and pouring toxic Babbitt, as the agency has been doing with paints and chrome plating? Once an engine has been converted to inserted bearings (especially the mains), it's pretty well determined that it can not go back to Babbitt. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Insert bearing replacement shells will be available in many forms for the rest our lifetimes, at least. I own both types of engines and I vastly favor inserted bearings for ease of maintenance, repairs and peace of mind. Too many "expert" Babbitt jobs I've paid for failed prematurely. The only inserted engine failure I have had was when an oil pump seized. ('Still don't know why!). That was not the fault of the inserted bearings! As I go through my engines in our other Model A's, I will have them converted to inserted bearings. THAT is the way of the future, if not also right now. Maybe in the past when there were multiple quality Babbitt pouring shops in each town, that might still be the way to go. But the scarcity of good shops today (and spread thinly all over the country) does not bode well for Babbitt remaining the choice of antique Ford owners in the future.
Besides: how many new car manufacturers use poured Babbitt bearings in their engines? I forget. If Babbitt bearings were better or even cheaper, you can bet the new cars would still be pouring Babbitt. That to me speaks volumes.
Marshall

[PC/SR]

Inserts are certainly cheaper for mass production where one design and size will fit millions of vehicles. Beyond that I think the main factors are availability and price.

[redmodelt]

The one advantage of babbitt is less affected by bad stuff in the oil, insert use a thinner layer of babbitt so really should have a oil filtering system.

[Ron in Quincy]

I have a Touring Engine in my 30 Coupe, counter balanced crankshaft, 37 pound flywheel, 9N pressure plate, B grind camshaft, full flow oil filter, modern valves and guides, 5.5 Snyder high compression head, of course insert main and rod bearings, stock distributor, and stock carburetor. I installed 3.54 gears in the rear end rather than a overdrive. Have a new short pitman arm and the A steers like a dream. I live in the mountains in Northern California, with the additional horse power its a pleasure to drive, pulls hills without shifting down.
Turlock Machine, Joe Sivils, built my engine. I have not had any problems and was glad I went to the additional expense for the Touring Engine. As a matter of fact I also later had a Touring Engine built by Joe for my 29 Roadster.

Turlock Machine guarantees his engines for a year, and is excellent to work with.

Ron Rude

[john in illinois]

I have many touring miles on my insert engine and few problems. Our longest trip in our Tudor was Illinois to Montana 3,900 miles.

John

[Mitch//pa]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N5kDrtTJGsU

[denis4x4]

I have one of each and both engines have all the go fast goodies. I drive them hard and really can't determine if one is better than the other. You pays your money and takes your choice.

[Marshall V. Daut]

By the way, one of the best Model A engine builders in the country (Rich Falluca at Antique Engine Rebuilding in Skokie, Illinois) doesn't even do Babbitt engines anymore, and hasn't for a couple years now. Why? Too many early failures and poor follow-up maintenance by owners not periodically adjusting the bearings - until it's too late. That's what I hear the reasons are for Rich dropping Babbitt engines, and what I recall him telling me a couple years ago when I was in his shop and asked why no more Babbitt engines. I have also read that the kind of Babbitt mix used in the "old days" is not the same as what is available today. The type of Babbitt still used in big semi-truck engines with HUMONGOUS bearing surface areas apparently doesn't hold up well in our comparatively small bearing surface area Model A engines. Those guys pouring Babbitt these days can chime in on that subject. True or false? I've got to believe that the Babbitt mix is a critical factor in engine life. Not all Babbitts are created equal!
Anyway, if an engine expert like Rich Falluca has gone strictly to inserted engines in his full-time business, I should think that is a significant argument against the future of Babbitt bearing engines in the Model A community. I only hear about Babbitt-pouring shops closing down, not opening up. Think past today and plan for tomorrow, guys!
Marshall

[Synchro909]

There was a thread a while ago where an engine builder spoke of the need (?) to grind the crankshaft 0.010" to go to the next sized insert. Surely, if so many people are now going to inserts, it would be worth someone making them in say, 0.005 increments. 0.010" is more than is needed in an ordinary rebuild. I can only see that much being needed if there has been a catastrophic failure and the journal is scored very badly, otherwise, it is a waste. I see that as a downside to going with inserted bearings. On the other hand, not many people use their cars enough for that to be a consideration. (I do.) Just MHO, FWIW.

[Art Newland]

Doesn't Mr. Falluca install all new valve seats as well? I was planning on doing a full rebuild on my engine. My spare is running strong and sounds good so I'm in no hurry. I pulled the engine apart to take a look and the pistons/bores look great, the rods have lots of shims, the crank has some shims but I haven't checked it over yet. The cam is very worn and more than likely the issue with low power. If the valve seats look OK, I think I'll just freshen it up and put it back together.

[1929]

I had inserts on my rebuild.

[Kevin in NJ]

Now for some opinion on my part.

Keep in mind my brother and I have done quite a bit to research the science behind properly pouring babbitt. We have the tooling and have poured babbitt for our own personal engines.

I feel that for mains babbitt is the better choice. It is forgiving and can deal with the dirt. Several guys have a great reputation for doing the pour right. It will give great service and is unlikely to just let yo down on a trip.

Rods are a different story. Rods are part of the balance of the rotating crank and require some pretty good quality control. Best if spun pour from what I can figure. The problem with rods today would be poor balance and questionable pouring. Now this is based on what I have been told by various people who have talked to me about rods and how they are done. Kind of scary some of what is done. For a while one guy was doing lead babbitt on rods (really bad!).

You can buy new rods designed to use insert bearings that are matched. Seems like the better probablity of no failure.

Now as for babbitt being banned, I would not worry too much. Proper babbitt does not have lead in it. Tin is what they use to line copper pots so the metals are not so toxic.

They had to go nuts with the plating solutions cause everyone was literally throwing the stuff on the ground. I know a guy who worked at a plating place (the shop pressed records) back in the 70's and they just dumped the stuff in the swamp behind the building. If you all remember there were a lot of water bodies that were dead- no living thing- because of pollution. Something had to be done. There were also a lot of people suffering from poisoning from poor practices in the tank areas. The only way they got compliance was to have significant fines, seems big businesses do not mind small fines if it is cheaper then the savings from not complying.

[Marshall V. Daut]

I have reliably been informed by a trusted and very knowledgeable Model A engine guy that quality Babbitt IS in fact still available. Here is his reply to my posting:
"I was reading your Babbitt post. The best grade of Babbitt for automotive bearings is still plenty available. It is called 4X Nickel. It is as good or better than Ford’s original."
I trust his opinion, so I shall take his advice over what I have read off and on in magazines and on the Internet about the quality of Babbitt back "when" and now. But does EVERY engine builder use this quality Babbitt?
Marshall
Marshall

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

By the way, one of the best Model A engine builders in the country (Rich Falluca at Antique Engine Rebuilding in Skokie, Illinois) doesn't even do Babbitt engines anymore, and hasn't for a couple years now. Why? Too many early failures and poor follow-up maintenance by owners not periodically adjusting the bearings - until it's too late. That's what I hear the reasons are for Rich dropping Babbitt engines, and what I recall him telling me a couple years ago when I was in his shop and asked why no more Babbitt engines. "END Quote"

The reason he told you why he quite pouring Babbitt, is Not the reason why he quite pouring bearings!

I have also read that the kind of Babbitt mix used in the "old days" is not the same as what is available today. "END QUOTE"

Not True, You can get any kind of Babbitt today that was ever made, in any point in time !

The type of Babbitt still used in big semi-truck engines with HUMONGOUS bearing surface areas apparently doesn't hold up well in our comparatively small bearing surface area Model A engines. "END QUOTE"

That is just plain Not True! Babbitt just does not know how big of bearing it is in.

I only hear about Babbitt-pouring shops closing down, not opening up. "END QUOTE"

There are some normal reasons why shops close down, but many are shops that they have to many come backs with bad machining, and the biggest problem is they don't know how to keep there Babbitt from coming loose. Either from the peening , if they peen at all, or in the tinning process. There are a lot of videos on U-Tube of Babbitt pouring, and I haven't seen one done right yet !

This is our 53rd year, and we have never had a bearing fail yet from Babbitt coming loose!

Herm.