Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-17-2014, 02:37 PM   #1
sconnors
Senior Member
 
sconnors's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Stephentown
Posts: 446
Default Tranny Leak

Hi guys
I know they're old, I know they drip! But I'm seeing some tranny fluid on the floor more and more. I crawled under today and took some pics as well as a pic of the puddle, the truck is a 1930 CCPU. It has been up on ramps since Monday so there is a slight tilt which may have caused it to leak more than normal.

Hoping someone can point me in the right direction as to a fix.

Thanks
Scott
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Tranny1.jpg (59.7 KB, 145 views)
File Type: jpg Tranny2.jpg (47.1 KB, 133 views)
File Type: jpg Tranny3.jpg (42.8 KB, 136 views)
File Type: jpg Tranny4.jpg (50.8 KB, 137 views)
sconnors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2014, 03:06 PM   #2
Mike V. Florida
Senior Member
 
Mike V. Florida's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South Florida
Posts: 14,054
Send a message via AIM to Mike V. Florida
Default Re: Tranny Leak

There are gaskets and seals for the universal, that most likely need to be replaced.

__________________
What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II
Mike V. Florida is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 09-17-2014, 03:44 PM   #3
hardtimes
Senior Member
 
hardtimes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South California
Posts: 6,188
Default Re: Tranny Leak

Hey Scott,
Taking that 'clamshell' arrangement apart....is no big deal. So , get the gasket kit that Mike shows and use this opportunity to clean this whole area, REPACK and reassemble. You can also get a 'look' at the universal joint to ascertain if ok or what !
One cavate about gaskets:
You'll notice the two that are round/unbroken circle. Normally, you would put these two in when the rear end is BACK from u-joint. No big deal to just open them up on one side and put them up around and in place. Use some silly cone and/or whatever you prefer sealant and you will be good..seal wise. Repeat..don't forget to repack

Last edited by hardtimes; 09-17-2014 at 03:46 PM. Reason: .............
hardtimes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2014, 04:47 PM   #4
Joe K
Senior Member
 
Joe K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Cow Hampshire
Posts: 4,174
Default Re: Tranny Leak

Quote:
Repeat..don't forget to repack
Actually, the clamshell setup is a left over from the old style "ring" universal joints - which need, no, REQUIRE grease in the clamshell.

If you've upgraded to the Dana-Spicer later type U Joint then grease is not required in the clamshells as the U-joint needle bearings are all sealed and pre-greased for the life of the car. These same U-joints probably are currently used under your modern day car WITHOUT any protection - the seals being enough.

I still put a dollop of grease in the clamshells - it keeps things from rusting up and keeps the "spherical joint" limber and flexible.

Joe K
__________________
Shudda kept the horse.
Joe K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2014, 05:12 PM   #5
sconnors
Senior Member
 
sconnors's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Stephentown
Posts: 446
Default Re: Tranny Leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe K View Post
Actually, the clamshell setup is a left over from the old style "ring" universal joints - which need, no, REQUIRE grease in the clamshell.

If you've upgraded to the Dana-Spicer later type U Joint then grease is not required in the clamshells as the U-joint needle bearings are all sealed and pre-greased for the life of the car. These same U-joints probably are currently used under your modern day car WITHOUT any protection - the seals being enough.

I still put a dollop of grease in the clamshells - it keeps things from rusting up and keeps the "spherical joint" limber and flexible.

Joe K
Thanks Joe, so if I understand correctly I just unbolt the clamshell, put permatex on and put one gasket there and rebolt? I've never had it apart so I'm flying blind, excuse the stupid question. Also is it the clamshell in the first picture or the second? They both look like clamshells to me.
Thanks again
Scott
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Tranny1.jpg (59.7 KB, 38 views)
File Type: jpg Tranny4.jpg (50.8 KB, 43 views)
sconnors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2014, 05:30 PM   #6
Tom Endy
Senior Member
 
Tom Endy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 3,122
Default Re: Tranny Leak

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
The Model A transmission usually leaks out the rear from two places. One is from around the cluster and idler shafts. This can be dealt with in two ways. Suppliers sell a little casting that bolts over the end that will dam up any oil coming from around the two shafts. This remedy can be done without pulling the transmission. If the transmission is out of the car for overhaul many suppliers sell both shafts with O-rings installed at the back end. This will prevent oil from leaking around the two shafts.

Another area of leakage, and from your photos this is the one you may have, is oil can easily migrate under the rear ball bearing along the six flutes in the main shaft. What prevents it from passing into the U-joint housing is a special washer that is wide and has a notch in it. This washer fits up against the rear of the main shaft and the rear of the U-joint. The notched drops into one of the flutes on the U-joint. The washer is used in conjunction with the bolt and lock washer used to mount the U-joint to the end of the main shaft. Quite often this washer is missing or has been substituted with a flat washer with a smaller diameter. This will cause oil to fill the U-joint housing and eventually drip on the floor. If the grease seal that sits behind the roller bearing in the torque tube is shot oil will continue down the torque tube and eventually end up inside the differential banjo.

This is not an easy fix as you will have to pull the rear end back to get the U-joint mounting bolt out. Most suppliers carry this special notched washer.

I don't believe replacing the gaskets on the U-joint housing will solve your problem. The U-joint housing is supposed to be filled with grease. If you have oil dripping out of it, it is coming from the transmission down the main shaft.

Tom Endy
Tom Endy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2014, 10:29 PM   #7
SeaSlugs
Senior Member
 
SeaSlugs's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central, IL
Posts: 3,968
Default Re: Tranny Leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Endy View Post
I don't believe replacing the gaskets on the U-joint housing will solve your problem. The U-joint housing is supposed to be filled with grease. If you have oil dripping out of it, it is coming from the transmission down the main shaft.

Tom Endy
my thoughts too. you have trans oil leaking into the u joint housing mixing with the grease making a heck of a stinky sticky mess...

the u joint gasket kit wont solve your problem...
__________________
1929 Model AA - Need long splash aprons!
SeaSlugs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2014, 10:43 PM   #8
ian Simpson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 709
Default Re: Tranny Leak

I have the same problem. The fix I use was posted here some time ago; - park your A over a cheap rubber backed mat until you get around to rebuilding the transmission. If the mat gets too messy, replace it. I got mine from Walmart and it cost less than $15CDN. Easier and cheaper than rebuilding an otherwise OK transmission.
ian Simpson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 05:11 AM   #9
Joe K
Senior Member
 
Joe K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Cow Hampshire
Posts: 4,174
Default Re: Tranny Leak

If it's oil leaking out the main bearing - then the solution is to replace the bearing with a sealed/shielded unit. Most of the parts vendors now have this bearing (instead of the formerly used "open" bearing which is used with it's applied shield) and you have to remove and replace the early style bearing with the "sealed for life" bearing.

It still won't eliminate ALL the leakage. A certain amount of oil will get away through the center of the bearing and along the spline at this point. Permatex No. 2 would be where I would go to help with that.

Joe K
__________________
Shudda kept the horse.
Joe K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 07:23 AM   #10
sconnors
Senior Member
 
sconnors's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Stephentown
Posts: 446
Default Re: Tranny Leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe K View Post
If it's oil leaking out the main bearing - then the solution is to replace the bearing with a sealed/shielded unit. Most of the parts vendors now have this bearing (instead of the formerly used "open" bearing which is used with it's applied shield) and you have to remove and replace the early style bearing with the "sealed for life" bearing.

It still won't eliminate ALL the leakage. A certain amount of oil will get away through the center of the bearing and along the spline at this point. Permatex No. 2 would be where I would go to help with that.

Joe K
Thanks Joe,
So to replace the bearing does the transmission have to come out? How hard is it to replace the bearing?
Thanks
Scott
sconnors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 07:50 AM   #11
Joe K
Senior Member
 
Joe K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Cow Hampshire
Posts: 4,174
Default Re: Tranny Leak

Actually, this might be done easiest with the tranny "in."

You would undo the clamshells, speedo cable, and remove the rear axle. Then remove the U-joint from the tranny by reaching "through" the U-joint with a socket on an extension to undo that bolt which hold the UJ to the rear transmission shaft.

With the UJ removed, you can then undo the 4 bolts that hold the rear bearing retainer. The retainer has a paper gasket which you'll need a replacement (although I have used manila folder paper to cut out another)

With the rear bearing retainer removed, you can then "pull" the bearing AND rear tranny shaft out of the rear of the tranny.

Note all this done without disconnecting the tranny from the bellhousing. Although you need to remove the floorboards and take the top off the tranny to remove the gear shifter fingers from their grooves on the gears. See Snyder's Tranny Diagram at http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/up...ODED-10150.pdf

You'll want to examine the pilot bearing for the rear shaft. Also examine the snap-ring(s) which sets where the bearing(s) are relative to the shaft itself.

Note that the rear bearing is "kinda" a press fit on it's shaft. You may or may not need a press to remove the bearing. Some are some aren't in my experience. On reassembly, you may want to "butter up" the shaft with permatex and then press on the bearing. THEN remove the excess permatex with a solvent (acetone?) so it doesn't interfere with normal action of the sliding gear/installation of the UJ.

I have always wanted to use the shield (part 41 on snyder's diagram) even though it's use is superfluous with a sealed bearing. It acts more or less as a spacer.

Technically you don't need to seal AROUND the new sealed rear bearing - but to set it into a bead of permatex before installing the bearing/shaft assembly or retainer might give more assurance.

And of course, if you're going to all this trouble to seal the rearmost main bearing, one can buy the accessory "cover" which is used to seal the reverse idler shafts. Or you can go the next step and cut these shafts for 0-ring installation which does away with the accessory cover. (WARNING - these reverse shafts are case hardened usually and cutting a groove on them is best done in a lathe with toolpost grinder capability - carbide tooling MIGHT cut it - if you're lucky.)

You're close to a slippery slope. ALMOST at the point where you might want to pick up a complete tranny at a flea market (can be bought for as little as $25 from current classified dealers) and do yourself up a complete rebuild - with upgrades -ready to drop in.

But having spare parts is it's own slippery slope. I currently have 100 percent of my first Model A, 70 percent of my second, 48 percent of my third, 33.2 percent of my fourth. And a whole bunch of parts inherited when people have cleaned out their barns locally.

Even the Dump Nazi knows my weakness...

"Joe - I got something for you..."

Joe K
__________________
Shudda kept the horse.
Joe K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 09:32 AM   #12
sconnors
Senior Member
 
sconnors's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Stephentown
Posts: 446
Default Re: Tranny Leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe K View Post
Actually, this might be done easiest with the tranny "in."

You would undo the clamshells, speedo cable, and remove the rear axle. Then remove the U-joint from the tranny by reaching "through" the U-joint with a socket on an extension to undo that bolt which hold the UJ to the rear transmission shaft.

With the UJ removed, you can then undo the 4 bolts that hold the rear bearing retainer. The retainer has a paper gasket which you'll need a replacement (although I have used manila folder paper to cut out another)

With the rear bearing retainer removed, you can then "pull" the bearing AND rear tranny shaft out of the rear of the tranny.

Note all this done without disconnecting the tranny from the bellhousing. Although you need to remove the floorboards and take the top off the tranny to remove the gear shifter fingers from their grooves on the gears. See Snyder's Tranny Diagram at http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/up...ODED-10150.pdf

You'll want to examine the pilot bearing for the rear shaft. Also examine the snap-ring(s) which sets where the bearing(s) are relative to the shaft itself.

Note that the rear bearing is "kinda" a press fit on it's shaft. You may or may not need a press to remove the bearing. Some are some aren't in my experience. On reassembly, you may want to "butter up" the shaft with permatex and then press on the bearing. THEN remove the excess permatex with a solvent (acetone?) so it doesn't interfere with normal action of the sliding gear/installation of the UJ.

I have always wanted to use the shield (part 41 on snyder's diagram) even though it's use is superfluous with a sealed bearing. It acts more or less as a spacer.

Technically you don't need to seal AROUND the new sealed rear bearing - but to set it into a bead of permatex before installing the bearing/shaft assembly or retainer might give more assurance.

And of course, if you're going to all this trouble to seal the rearmost main bearing, one can buy the accessory "cover" which is used to seal the reverse idler shafts. Or you can go the next step and cut these shafts for 0-ring installation which does away with the accessory cover. (WARNING - these reverse shafts are case hardened usually and cutting a groove on them is best done in a lathe with toolpost grinder capability - carbide tooling MIGHT cut it - if you're lucky.)

You're close to a slippery slope. ALMOST at the point where you might want to pick up a complete tranny at a flea market (can be bought for as little as $25 from current classified dealers) and do yourself up a complete rebuild - with upgrades -ready to drop in.

But having spare parts is it's own slippery slope. I currently have 100 percent of my first Model A, 70 percent of my second, 48 percent of my third, 33.2 percent of my fourth. And a whole bunch of parts inherited when people have cleaned out their barns locally.

Even the Dump Nazi knows my weakness...

"Joe - I got something for you..."

Joe K
Thanks Joe
Saw these two parts in Mac's catalog. Would they be helpful for my leak? Looks like you don't have to pull the tranny to install either one.

http://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_mo...-original.html

http://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_mo...haft-seal.html
sconnors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 09:32 AM   #13
sconnors
Senior Member
 
sconnors's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Stephentown
Posts: 446
Default Re: Tranny Leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Endy View Post
The Model A transmission usually leaks out the rear from two places. One is from around the cluster and idler shafts. This can be dealt with in two ways. Suppliers sell a little casting that bolts over the end that will dam up any oil coming from around the two shafts. This remedy can be done without pulling the transmission. If the transmission is out of the car for overhaul many suppliers sell both shafts with O-rings installed at the back end. This will prevent oil from leaking around the two shafts.

Another area of leakage, and from your photos this is the one you may have, is oil can easily migrate under the rear ball bearing along the six flutes in the main shaft. What prevents it from passing into the U-joint housing is a special washer that is wide and has a notch in it. This washer fits up against the rear of the main shaft and the rear of the U-joint. The notched drops into one of the flutes on the U-joint. The washer is used in conjunction with the bolt and lock washer used to mount the U-joint to the end of the main shaft. Quite often this washer is missing or has been substituted with a flat washer with a smaller diameter. This will cause oil to fill the U-joint housing and eventually drip on the floor. If the grease seal that sits behind the roller bearing in the torque tube is shot oil will continue down the torque tube and eventually end up inside the differential banjo.

This is not an easy fix as you will have to pull the rear end back to get the U-joint mounting bolt out. Most suppliers carry this special notched washer.

I don't believe replacing the gaskets on the U-joint housing will solve your problem. The U-joint housing is supposed to be filled with grease. If you have oil dripping out of it, it is coming from the transmission down the main shaft.

Tom Endy
Thanks Tom,
Saw these two parts in Mac's catalog. Would they be helpful for my leak? Looks like you don't have to pull the tranny to install either one.

http://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_mo...-original.html

http://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_mo...haft-seal.html
sconnors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 09:46 AM   #14
Joe K
Senior Member
 
Joe K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Cow Hampshire
Posts: 4,174
Default Re: Tranny Leak

No question that both seals will work. I wonder about the seal in the bellhousing (not having experience with it) whether it will inhibit motion of the shifter rails? Might be a cause for hard or at least "less natural" shifting.

Not sure about the sealing methodology based on the pix.

Joe K
__________________
Shudda kept the horse.
Joe K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 01:51 PM   #15
Tom Endy
Senior Member
 
Tom Endy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 3,122
Default Re: Tranny Leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe K View Post
No question that both seals will work. I wonder about the seal in the bellhousing (not having experience with it) whether it will inhibit motion of the shifter rails? Might be a cause for hard or at least "less natural" shifting.

Not sure about the sealing methodology based on the pix.

Joe K

The seal mod for the bell housing was developed by the Mitchell overdrive company. The synchro transmission they sell for the Model A uses a thinner oil. Their theory was that this mod will eliminate the oil that gets past the two shifting rails in the transmission tower.

I have always believed that what little oil that gets past these shifting rails lubricates the felt pad installed in the base of the bell housing that lubricates the ball in the end of the front radius rod.

In a standard Model A transmission I have never seen the need for this mod. The mod that bolts to the back of the transmission that blocks oil from leaking past the cluster and idler shafts is worth while if that is where it is leaking.

When overhauling a Model A transmission I always install sealed ball bearings front and back and cluster and idler shafts with the O-ring mod. It is also important that both front and rear oil slingers are installed correctly, even when sealed bearings are installed.

What I think this fellow's problem is that he is missing the proper washer at the end of the U-joint and oil is passing under the six flutes of the main shaft and past the U-joint and into the U-joint housing. Oil dripping out of the U-joint housing has to be coming from the transmission.

Tom Endy
Tom Endy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 04:25 PM   #16
sconnors
Senior Member
 
sconnors's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Stephentown
Posts: 446
Default Re: Tranny Leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Endy View Post
The seal mod for the bell housing was developed by the Mitchell overdrive company. The synchro transmission they sell for the Model A uses a thinner oil. Their theory was that this mod will eliminate the oil that gets past the two shifting rails in the transmission tower.

I have always believed that what little oil that gets past these shifting rails lubricates the felt pad installed in the base of the bell housing that lubricates the ball in the end of the front radius rod.

In a standard Model A transmission I have never seen the need for this mod. The mod that bolts to the back of the transmission that blocks oil from leaking past the cluster and idler shafts is worth while if that is where it is leaking.

When overhauling a Model A transmission I always install sealed ball bearings front and back and cluster and idler shafts with the O-ring mod. It is also important that both front and rear oil slingers are installed correctly, even when sealed bearings are installed.

What I think this fellow's problem is that he is missing the proper washer at the end of the U-joint and oil is passing under the six flutes of the main shaft and past the U-joint and into the U-joint housing. Oil dripping out of the U-joint housing has to be coming from the transmission.

Tom Endy
Tom
You are a wealth of knowledge regarding the Model A Transmission and I thank you! Suffice to say I am not, can you tell/show me using the diagram in the link which washer you are speaking of? I want to replace it and fix the problem. If it's not in the diagram, can you point me to a part number or link to the part in a catalog?
I really appreciate the help. This forum sparks the old adage: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for life. I love learning about Model A's and this forum teaches me more and more each day thanks to guys like you!

sconnors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 05:36 PM   #17
Joe K
Senior Member
 
Joe K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Cow Hampshire
Posts: 4,174
Default Re: Tranny Leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by sconnors View Post
can you tell/show me using the diagram in the link which washer you are speaking of? I want to replace it and fix the problem. If it's not in the diagram, can you point me to a part number or link to the part in a catalog?
Part 34 at http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/up...ODED-10150.pdf

And another spot that might benefit from small application of Permatex No. 2.

Good luck with your Spindletop.

Joe K
__________________
Shudda kept the horse.
Joe K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 05:59 PM   #18
Tom Endy
Senior Member
 
Tom Endy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 3,122
Default Re: Tranny Leak

Tom
You are a wealth of knowledge regarding the Model A Transmission and I thank you! Suffice to say I am not, can you tell/show me using the diagram in the link which washer you are speaking of? I want to replace it and fix the problem. If it's not in the diagram, can you point me to a part number or link to the part in a catalog?
I really appreciate the help. This forum sparks the old adage: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for life. I love learning about Model A's and this forum teaches me more and more each day thanks to guys like you!

[/QUOTE]

The part is shown in a Bratton catalog on page 48, part number 10430. Or go on line at www.Brattons.com. Attached photos show how it attaches to the rear of the transmission main shaft. Note the six flutes on the main shaft. They pass under the rear bearing and are a path for oil. The front flange of the U-joint fits up against the inner portion of the rear bearing and acts as a stop. The notched flat washer fits into the back side of the front portion of the U-joint and acts as a dam.

Tom Endy
Tom Endy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 06:01 PM   #19
Tom Endy
Senior Member
 
Tom Endy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 3,122
Default Re: Tranny Leak

Photos did not up-load try again.

Tom Endy
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1020807.jpg (114.1 KB, 51 views)
File Type: jpg P1020808.jpg (115.5 KB, 54 views)
File Type: jpg P1020812.jpg (62.8 KB, 63 views)
File Type: jpg P1020800.jpg (44.5 KB, 48 views)
Tom Endy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 06:17 PM   #20
Tom Endy
Senior Member
 
Tom Endy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 3,122
Default Re: Tranny Leak

When installing this washer you have to slide it into the U-joint at the opening in the center to get it up against the rear flange of the forward part of the U-joint. Then you have to come in from the very rear of the U-joint with the bolt and the lock washer in a 3\8" drive 9\16" socket on a long extension. Fish it around until it goes through the notched washer and into the end of the main shaft. The notch should drop into one of the flutes as you tighten it. Don't over tighten the bolt as it will cup the notched washer. It does not hurt to put a little sealer on the front of the notched washer.

Tom Endy
Tom Endy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:21 PM.