The Ford Barn

Darrell S · 04-27-2022, 03:18 PM

I copied this from a 1931 Flamingo thread on hard starting. DD had this in the post.

Now, with ALL wiring connections verified, let's attempt to polarize.

First, remove the BATTERY CABLE connection at POS BATTERY post. This will take any power off of regulator, like starting from scratch.

Now, re-attach CABLE to POS BATT post.

DO NOT turn key on! DO NOT crank engine!

CAREFULLY, remove the "FLD" wire from terminal on regulator. DO NOT let it touch any metal surface.

Carefully, take the end of "FLD" wire and briefly TOUCH it to the "BAT" terminal on VOLTAGE REGulator. Do that a couple of times. You should see a slight spark each time.

Now, carefully re-connect the "FLD" wire to the "FLD" terminal on voltage regulator.

PLEASE...Follow these directions explicitly, and IN ORDER!
__________________________________________________ ______

Now, crank-up your engine and tell us what your results are. Hopefully, all will be normal. If NOT normal, it's likely that your regulator (or generator) is damaged internally.

ANY TIME you work on GEN or REGULATOR circuits, you MUST re-polarize. It also won't hurt to re-polarize any time BATTERY is disconnected from circuit.

I have been looking at this older thread. I have put a new battery in the 48
(6 volt) and after running for awhile the battery doesn't charge. I see that DD is saying that each time the battery is disconnected from the system it must be re-polarized. I have never done this at each disconnect. Would this mean that if one has a battery disconnect switch installed they should re-polarize each time it is turned off? When I leave the car parked for long periods I disconnect the battery. Could I have damaged the generator or voltage regulator by not re-polarizing each time I disconnect? Should it be re-polarized each time? Obviously I'm not an electrical trouble shooter.

tubman · 04-27-2022, 08:27 PM

Boy, I don't know; I have had the battery disconnected at least 100 times since I got my '51 35 years ago and have never had to "re-polarize" the generator. Probably doesn't hurt, though.

Yes, it's 6 volt positive ground with the original generator and (I think) regulator.

Brian · 04-28-2022, 01:56 AM

No need to polarise each time you have battery disconnected, although it certainly can't [won't] hurt.

Darrell S · 04-28-2022, 09:12 AM

Could damage to the generator or voltage regulator have happened as a result of not polarizing? I was hoping DD would chime in.

rotorwrench · 04-29-2022, 11:35 AM

In normal use, the field pole shoes will hold a decent gauss of residual magnetism. If the generator has been out of service for a long time or is newly overhauled, the field should be flashed. It only takes a moment to re-magnetize the pole shoes.

Darrell S · 04-29-2022, 01:30 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

In normal use, the field pole shoes will hold a decent gauss of residual magnetism. If the generator has been out of service for a long time or is newly overhauled, the field should be flashed. It only takes a moment to re-magnetize the pole shoes.

Could damage have been done to the generator or voltage generator by not doing so?

rotorwrench · 04-29-2022, 02:41 PM

Not from polarization or lack of it. It just won't come on line. Now if the cut out relay at the VR bat terminat is fused in closed circuit position. The generator will try to motor until the generator or battery is disconnected. This can damage both the generator and the battery. Problems with the VR or generator control unit can damage a generator. A bad armature won't allow proper generator function and same for a bad field set. The generator can be tested but some tests require equipment to accomplish. A basic generator output check can be done with a proper amp meter. The VR will require more equipment to fully function check.

Darrell S · 04-29-2022, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

Not from polarization or lack of it. It just won't come on line. Now if the cut out relay at the VR bat terminat is fused in closed circuit position. The generator will try to motor until the generator or battery is disconnected. This can damage both the generator and the battery. Problems with the VR or generator control unit can damage a generator. A bad armature won't allow proper generator function and same for a bad field set. The generator can be tested but some tests require equipment to accomplish. A basic generator output check can be done with a proper amp meter. The VR will require more equipment to fully function check.

Thanks so much for the information, greatly appreciated.

SoCalCoupe · 05-01-2022, 08:38 PM

Did the generator charge the battery before you put in the new battery? How do you know? Maybe the generator wasn't charging the old battery?

I'm no expert but I very seriously doubt that "you damaged the generator or voltage regulator by not re-polarizing each time [you] disconnect."

You need a really good voltmeter to check the voltage at idle and at cruising rpm. If the voltage doesn't change, no you're not charging.

In my extremely limited experience, voltage regulators are the culprit. When I acquired my car six months ago, the battery wouldn't charge, no matter how many chants I made or how many chicken bones I waved over the generator and voltage regulator. I re-polarized several times, no change.

Long story short, I bought a very old NORS voltage regulator on eBay and a Fluke digital multi-meter. I'm a tool junkie and I love high quality tools. The NORS voltage regulator works great and I can see the voltage change when I rev the engine. A cheap multi-meter MAY give you inconclusive information. I was previously using a very cheap Radio Shack analogue multi-meter that didn't have a good scale for a 6V DC system and my readings were inconclusive.

Some people say a digital voltage meter doesn't work with a mechanical voltage regulator because the RMS averaging isn't compatible. My Fluke works great.

Darrell S · 05-02-2022, 10:25 AM

[QUOTE=SoCalCoupe;2126060]Did the generator charge the battery before you put in the new battery? How do you know? Maybe the generator wasn't charging the old battery?

I'm no expert but I very seriously doubt that "you damaged the generator or voltage regulator by not re-polarizing each time [you] disconnect."

You need a really good voltmeter to check the voltage at idle and at cruising rpm. If the voltage doesn't change, no you're not charging.

In my extremely limited experience, voltage regulators are the culprit. When I acquired my car six months ago, the battery wouldn't charge, no matter how many chants I made or how many chicken bones I waved over the generator and voltage regulator. I re-polarized several times, no change.

Long story short, I bought a very old NORS voltage regulator on eBay and a Fluke digital multi-meter. I'm a tool junkie and I love high quality tools. The NORS voltage regulator works great and I can see the voltage change when I rev the engine. A cheap multi-meter MAY give you inconclusive information. I was previously using a very cheap Radio Shack analogue multi-meter that didn't have a good scale for a 6V DC system and my readings were inconclusive.

Some people say a digital voltage meter doesn't work with a mechanical voltage regulator because the RMS averaging isn't compatible. My Fluke works great.[/QU

The reason I bought the new battery was that the old one wouldn't charge. I thought it was a bad battery. I hadn't run the car through the winter as much as I had done previously. It was doing fine in the fall when I covered it. It is an NORS voltage regulator.

The generator has been rebuilt and the same shop tested the NORS regulator when doing the rebuild. It was all working fine then. I am going to have them check out the system again.

What digital Fluke meter do you have? I would be interested in being able to test things myself.

rotorwrench · 05-02-2022, 11:27 AM

Many of the units available now are copies of one Fluke design or another. There are a few things that a d'Arsonval meter will show that digital units can't follow due to the speed that the digital meter works at. Most are irrelevant to automotive testing needs.

Vibrator control circuitry such as the old voltage regulators functioned with is one of those things due to the speed that they function. They really buzz to open and close the circuit fast enough in order to control the voltage output. The digital meter will read this as an average voltage indication but some needle swing meters will actually indicate some of the ups and downs during opening and closing of the circuit. An oscilloscope is a better way to look at it though so it doesn't really matter all that much. The average is what matters. The first Fluke meter I ever used was purchased for its accuracy of indication. It was used to adjust voltage output on 24-volt aircraft power generating systems. At the time, it was one of the most accurate meters produced.

04-27-2022, 03:18 PM	#1
Darrell S Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Everett WA Posts: 346	Not Charging I copied this from a 1931 Flamingo thread on hard starting. DD had this in the post. Now, with ALL wiring connections verified, let's attempt to polarize. First, remove the BATTERY CABLE connection at POS BATTERY post. This will take any power off of regulator, like starting from scratch. Now, re-attach CABLE to POS BATT post. DO NOT turn key on! DO NOT crank engine! CAREFULLY, remove the "FLD" wire from terminal on regulator. DO NOT let it touch any metal surface. Carefully, take the end of "FLD" wire and briefly TOUCH it to the "BAT" terminal on VOLTAGE REGulator. Do that a couple of times. You should see a slight spark each time. Now, carefully re-connect the "FLD" wire to the "FLD" terminal on voltage regulator. PLEASE...Follow these directions explicitly, and IN ORDER! __________________________________________________ ______ Now, crank-up your engine and tell us what your results are. Hopefully, all will be normal. If NOT normal, it's likely that your regulator (or generator) is damaged internally. ANY TIME you work on GEN or REGULATOR circuits, you MUST re-polarize. It also won't hurt to re-polarize any time BATTERY is disconnected from circuit. I have been looking at this older thread. I have put a new battery in the 48 (6 volt) and after running for awhile the battery doesn't charge. I see that DD is saying that each time the battery is disconnected from the system it must be re-polarized. I have never done this at each disconnect. Would this mean that if one has a battery disconnect switch installed they should re-polarize each time it is turned off? When I leave the car parked for long periods I disconnect the battery. Could I have damaged the generator or voltage regulator by not re-polarizing each time I disconnect? Should it be re-polarized each time? Obviously I'm not an electrical trouble shooter.

04-27-2022, 08:27 PM	#2
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,303	Re: Not Charging Boy, I don't know; I have had the battery disconnected at least 100 times since I got my '51 35 years ago and have never had to "re-polarize" the generator. Probably doesn't hurt, though. Yes, it's 6 volt positive ground with the original generator and (I think) regulator.

04-28-2022, 01:56 AM	#3
Brian Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Masterton, New Zealand Posts: 3,829	Re: Not Charging No need to polarise each time you have battery disconnected, although it certainly can't [won't] hurt. __________________ Unfortunately, two half wits don't make a whole wit!

04-28-2022, 09:12 AM	#4
Darrell S Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Everett WA Posts: 346	Re: Not Charging Could damage to the generator or voltage regulator have happened as a result of not polarizing? I was hoping DD would chime in. Last edited by Darrell S; 04-28-2022 at 03:19 PM. Reason: add text

04-29-2022, 11:35 AM	#5
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: Not Charging In normal use, the field pole shoes will hold a decent gauss of residual magnetism. If the generator has been out of service for a long time or is newly overhauled, the field should be flashed. It only takes a moment to re-magnetize the pole shoes.

04-29-2022, 02:41 PM	#7
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: Not Charging Not from polarization or lack of it. It just won't come on line. Now if the cut out relay at the VR bat terminat is fused in closed circuit position. The generator will try to motor until the generator or battery is disconnected. This can damage both the generator and the battery. Problems with the VR or generator control unit can damage a generator. A bad armature won't allow proper generator function and same for a bad field set. The generator can be tested but some tests require equipment to accomplish. A basic generator output check can be done with a proper amp meter. The VR will require more equipment to fully function check.

05-01-2022, 08:38 PM	#9
SoCalCoupe Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Point Loma, San Diego, CA Posts: 423	Re: Not Charging Did the generator charge the battery before you put in the new battery? How do you know? Maybe the generator wasn't charging the old battery? I'm no expert but I very seriously doubt that "you damaged the generator or voltage regulator by not re-polarizing each time [you] disconnect." You need a really good voltmeter to check the voltage at idle and at cruising rpm. If the voltage doesn't change, no you're not charging. In my extremely limited experience, voltage regulators are the culprit. When I acquired my car six months ago, the battery wouldn't charge, no matter how many chants I made or how many chicken bones I waved over the generator and voltage regulator. I re-polarized several times, no change. Long story short, I bought a very old NORS voltage regulator on eBay and a Fluke digital multi-meter. I'm a tool junkie and I love high quality tools. The NORS voltage regulator works great and I can see the voltage change when I rev the engine. A cheap multi-meter MAY give you inconclusive information. I was previously using a very cheap Radio Shack analogue multi-meter that didn't have a good scale for a 6V DC system and my readings were inconclusive. Some people say a digital voltage meter doesn't work with a mechanical voltage regulator because the RMS averaging isn't compatible. My Fluke works great.

05-02-2022, 10:25 AM	#10
Darrell S Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Everett WA Posts: 346	Re: Not Charging [QUOTE=SoCalCoupe;2126060]Did the generator charge the battery before you put in the new battery? How do you know? Maybe the generator wasn't charging the old battery? I'm no expert but I very seriously doubt that "you damaged the generator or voltage regulator by not re-polarizing each time [you] disconnect." You need a really good voltmeter to check the voltage at idle and at cruising rpm. If the voltage doesn't change, no you're not charging. In my extremely limited experience, voltage regulators are the culprit. When I acquired my car six months ago, the battery wouldn't charge, no matter how many chants I made or how many chicken bones I waved over the generator and voltage regulator. I re-polarized several times, no change. Long story short, I bought a very old NORS voltage regulator on eBay and a Fluke digital multi-meter. I'm a tool junkie and I love high quality tools. The NORS voltage regulator works great and I can see the voltage change when I rev the engine. A cheap multi-meter MAY give you inconclusive information. I was previously using a very cheap Radio Shack analogue multi-meter that didn't have a good scale for a 6V DC system and my readings were inconclusive. Some people say a digital voltage meter doesn't work with a mechanical voltage regulator because the RMS averaging isn't compatible. My Fluke works great.[/QU The reason I bought the new battery was that the old one wouldn't charge. I thought it was a bad battery. I hadn't run the car through the winter as much as I had done previously. It was doing fine in the fall when I covered it. It is an NORS voltage regulator. The generator has been rebuilt and the same shop tested the NORS regulator when doing the rebuild. It was all working fine then. I am going to have them check out the system again. What digital Fluke meter do you have? I would be interested in being able to test things myself.

05-02-2022, 11:27 AM	#11
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: Not Charging Many of the units available now are copies of one Fluke design or another. There are a few things that a d'Arsonval meter will show that digital units can't follow due to the speed that the digital meter works at. Most are irrelevant to automotive testing needs. Vibrator control circuitry such as the old voltage regulators functioned with is one of those things due to the speed that they function. They really buzz to open and close the circuit fast enough in order to control the voltage output. The digital meter will read this as an average voltage indication but some needle swing meters will actually indicate some of the ups and downs during opening and closing of the circuit. An oscilloscope is a better way to look at it though so it doesn't really matter all that much. The average is what matters. The first Fluke meter I ever used was purchased for its accuracy of indication. It was used to adjust voltage output on 24-volt aircraft power generating systems. At the time, it was one of the most accurate meters produced.