The Ford Barn

Kevin - Illinois · 06-01-2012, 10:07 PM

The other thread was filling up... History - I started with a 31 standard coupe with a stock engine and drive train. The motor was tired and the rear main bearing failed last year. I pulled the motor and transmission and took it to a rebuilder in February. The motor was refreshed as a steel insert bearing long block with a 5.5 head. Since I had the car apart I took the transmission to the same person who rebuilt it as well. I am confident in the ability of the rebuilder as he has done many engines and transmissions.
I got everything together and started the car a little over a month ago. I made sure the entire car was assembled before starting it as I was told not to idle for the break in, but to drive the car (which makes good sense). I went through all the recommended checks including squirting a little oil in the cylinders the night before, pouring one quart of oil down the distributor hole, and loosening the oil pipe lower bolt to check the oil pressure.
On my first test drive the engine ran smooth in 1st and 2nd gears, however I did have trouble shifting into 2nd. The shift into 3rd was smooth, however when I let up on the clutch and pressed the accelerator I heard a knock at the rate of about 2 per second. The knock was in front of me, meaning it sounded like it was in the engine side of the clutch housing. If I pressed in on the clutch the knock stopped. If I decelerated the knock would stop as well. The knock is present only in 3rd gear.
I was told to the check the U-joint so I pulled the rear end and installed a new one. The knock didn't change. At the advice of good people I checked the starter bolts and they were the correct length and were not damaged.
I was also told that in the video it appeared the throwout bearing was riding on the pressure plate fingers. I checked and it appeared there was about 1" of freeplay.
It was suggested there was a problem with the throwout bearing hub. I dropped the rear end and pulled the transmission. I found no problems with it. I also checked the pressure plate to assure it was tight and there were no broken fingers. I also checked to assure the steel plate was installed for the flywheel bolts. I saw no shavings or indications of the bolts hitting the back of the engine.
I contacted the rebuilder and he mentioned he noticed and odd bend to one of the shifter forks when he rebuilt the transmission and that he replaced it. He felt there could still be a problem with the shifting tower so he shipped me another. I reassembled the car and installed the new shifting tower. The car shifted smooth in all gears however the knock was still present in 3rd gear.
The rebuilder asked me to pull the transmission which I did and took it to him. He went through it on the spot and found that the Main Drive Gear and the Main Shaft both had end play to the tune of .050. He corrected this and I took the transmission back and installed it. Once again the knock was still there in 3rd gear only and was unchanged.
I pulled the starter and installed a spare as it was suggested that I may have a broken spring. No difference. I jacked up one rear wheel and ran the car through the gears and the knock was still there but it may have been a little lighter.
The rebuilder built another transmission and sent it this week. I pulled the rear end again but this time I pulled the u-joint and test ran with the old transmission still in place. The knock is still there in 3rd gear only but it's much lighter.
Since I have the new transmission I will install it. I don't know what it means though that the knock is much lighter with the drive shaft disconnected.

Video of the knock...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMb7d...ature=youtu.be

columbiA · 06-01-2012, 10:44 PM

Well,with no rear end to put a slight load on the trans the knock will sound lighter.It still sounds like something rubbing as well as a knocking sound.

H. L. Chauvin · 06-01-2012, 10:56 PM

Kevin,

At this point, we could all sit here, line up like on a quiz show, & see who "guesses" the correct answer.

However, I admire your professional, intelligent choice of stating the facts as you go, not playing a guessing game, & like a professional surgeon, remaining silent & intelligently & meticulously investigating this very serious matter.

Thanks for your professionalism & patience.

Sometimes people who want to appear intelligent should never miss an opportunity to remain silent.

Kevin - Illinois · 06-01-2012, 11:31 PM

H.L., I need to thank you all! Your patience with me is commendable!

The more I look at this the more I truly believe this is a transmission problem. I rode in a 30 Coupe today and his transmission did not whine like mine. Listen to the video, it sounds like Klinger's jeep on Mash. So tonight I eliminated the pressure plate / fingers, pilot bearing, starter spring and starter position. I'm thinking there has to be something wrong with the transmission. Should know by tomorrow afternoon.

H. L. Chauvin · 06-02-2012, 01:43 AM

Kevin,

"Wow"! All of your internal parts are so professionally clean!

Your observations so far are "right-on"; & no doubt you have what it takes to pinpoint the exact mechanical problem .

Even though many of us have sincere "guesses" of what we think is the problem, it would be best if you make this final announcement of the final solution.

After "you" find the noise, you will no doubt have a wonderful piece of machinery that your entire family can be proud to have.

This will be such a great & "inspirational" mystical story to share with your grand-children or young cousins sitting on your lap when you get old -- it can teach them the old vintage U. S. Military Combat saying: "When the going gets rough, the rough gets going -- never give up." I used it on my (4) sucessful children.

One can clearly see that both you "&" your rebuilder definitely took pride in this great work & that your rebuilder is definitely not some over the tracks, back of town Rookie; however, with sincere, profound respect for him & his work, like all of us, he is working with 80 year worn parts & old machinery -- similar to a very good doctor performing 90 year old "nursing home" surgery, where the surgeon does not have too much to work with in the beginning.

Your rebuilder should be very highly commended for his perseverance & wanting to help you.

This will no doubt be an interesting mystical story with a happy ending.

Just hopes this inspires all Model A owners to have compassion for sincerely respecting others in need.

TinCup · 06-02-2012, 08:26 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Wow my house isn't that clean! Good luck.

Kevin - Illinois · 06-02-2012, 04:10 PM

New transmission is installed, raised the back wheels and tested it, the knock is still there, still 3rd gear only, still stops when I let up in the accelerator, also if I hold the accelerator and push in the clutch.

I have attached pics of assembly, if someone sees a problem with it any of these pics please let me know. I am processing a video and will have it attached to this thread shortly.

Kevin - Illinois · 06-02-2012, 04:20 PM

Here's the latest video. Please let me know if you see anything wrong that could cause the knock, and anything wrong with the assembly.

Thanks - Kevin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-miy...ature=youtu.be

1931 flamingo · 06-02-2012, 04:31 PM

POST #6..................Did you do that BEFORE installing the "new" transmission??
Paul in CT

Kevin - Illinois · 06-02-2012, 04:33 PM

Hi Paul, if you are referring to the finger adjustments and such, yes I did.

1931 flamingo · 06-02-2012, 05:08 PM

Kevin: No . Did you run the engine WITHOUT the trans attached??
Paul

H. L. Chauvin · 06-02-2012, 06:49 PM

Kevin,

At this point after seeing both videos, if possible, with the newer transmission removed, I would:

A. Place both old & new transmissions in 3rd, & try to turn them clockwise first by hand, & if possible, rotate each with a half inch drill to check for rotating noise.

B. Perform suggestion in message # 12, i.e., run engine without transmission, (if not already done), & even try applying slight rearward pressure on the crankshaft pulley with a 2x4 while engine is running to check for engine noise. (Do not get hit by the fan.)

James Rogers · 06-02-2012, 07:03 PM

Last resort, check the pilot bearing for roughness.Possibility the gears in first and second don't put quite the same pressure on it and it only clan third. In my mind this is all that is left.

James Rogers · 06-02-2012, 07:11 PM

By the way, don't run the motor without the transmission unless you remove the clutch and pressure plate. If the clutch disk gets off center even by a little it can cause serious vibrations and sling the plate all the way out and might get dangerous with baaaaad vibrations.

Benson · 06-02-2012, 07:22 PM

Looking at this picture ... is that a spot where something has been rubbing on right side of U -Joint?? Or is it just the way the photo looks??

Top of U -joint right side... at top of picture...

Click on photo to get large photo...

Next question I have: Is the special washer installed with the notch installed correctly?

Maybe the bolt is too long?? and U Joint is loose.

H. L. Chauvin · 06-02-2012, 07:50 PM

Kevin,

James has a good point.

And why only in 3rd?

The transmission tower front fork is pushing the sliding 2nd gear "far" forward "only" in 3rd to mesh with the rear of the main drive gear.

In "only" noisy 3rd, is the transmission main drive gear trying to move forward because of pressure from the tower's front fork when the shift lever is pulled back.

Pilot bearing is a possibility.

Dick So. Cal. · 06-02-2012, 08:33 PM

Is it possible that the flywheel to crankshaft bolts are a tad too long?
We had that problem a few month ago. Repro bolts were too long. Pulled the engine, replaced the rear seal, used original bolts and all is well. Just a thought.

Dick

H. L. Chauvin · 06-02-2012, 09:14 PM

Kevin,

Just humbly trying to explain Dick's very possible thought:

Model A engines are on a slight angle such that the crankshaft would slide a few thousanths of an inch rearward if the crankshaft had any front/rear movement or play.

In any gear or neutral, the crankshaft may remain rearward with no pressure pushing from the rear; however, in third when the transmission tower's front fork pushes on the main drive gear & flywheel, the longer protruding crankshaft bolts could be driven a few thousandths forward with the flywheel; hence, allowing the longer flywheel bolts to tap on the rear bearing cap, thus making this clattering noise.

Starting to look like you have a situation similar to having two (2) Siamese Fighting Fish native to streams on the Indochinese Cambodian Border.

Fish (A), the engine, looks fine. Fish (B) is the transmission & it looks fine.

They only clash when you put them together.

Tom Wesenberg · 06-02-2012, 09:51 PM

It kind of does sound like flywheel bolts hitting the rear bearing, but then pushing on the clutch is when the noise should happen, rather than when the clutch is released. The fact that it only does it in third is what throws me.

So far I can't think of any reason, but it would be nice to know if it was tried without the tranny in place. That would/should cut the guessing or possiblities in half.

H. L. Chauvin · 06-02-2012, 11:11 PM

Hi Tom,

To add to this mystery, look at Kevin's #8 above; i.e., "no" noise when he lets up on the accelerator in 3rd gear.

It appears that "only" in 3rd gear, noise starts "only" when the "engine" turns the transmission's main drive gear, & "not" when the propellor shaft turns the transmission's main drive gear, for example:

A. No Noise: If forward pressure is greater in 3rd, when the clutch is depressed, there is even more forward pressure on the crankshaft assembly. At this point, "no" noise. The "engine" is "not" turning the transmission's main drive gear -- the rotating, coasting drive shaft is.

B. No Noise: Again, if forward pressure is greater in 3rd, when the clutch is released, there is less forward pressure on the crankshaft assembly. Again, at this point, "no" noise "only" when he lets up on the accelerator. Again, the engine is winding down is "not" turning the transmission's main drive gear -- the drive shaft is with the vehicle's forward motion like descending a steep hill with an idling engine.

C. Noise: Now, if forward pressure is greater in 3rd, when the clutch is released, there is less forward pressure on crankshaft assembly. At this point, "noise". The engine "is" turning the transmission's main drive gear -- the propellor shaft is "not".

D. Any more suggestions?

06-01-2012, 10:07 PM	#1
Kevin - Illinois Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ottawa, Illinois Posts: 401	3rd gear knock updated 6/1/12 The other thread was filling up... History - I started with a 31 standard coupe with a stock engine and drive train. The motor was tired and the rear main bearing failed last year. I pulled the motor and transmission and took it to a rebuilder in February. The motor was refreshed as a steel insert bearing long block with a 5.5 head. Since I had the car apart I took the transmission to the same person who rebuilt it as well. I am confident in the ability of the rebuilder as he has done many engines and transmissions. I got everything together and started the car a little over a month ago. I made sure the entire car was assembled before starting it as I was told not to idle for the break in, but to drive the car (which makes good sense). I went through all the recommended checks including squirting a little oil in the cylinders the night before, pouring one quart of oil down the distributor hole, and loosening the oil pipe lower bolt to check the oil pressure. On my first test drive the engine ran smooth in 1st and 2nd gears, however I did have trouble shifting into 2nd. The shift into 3rd was smooth, however when I let up on the clutch and pressed the accelerator I heard a knock at the rate of about 2 per second. The knock was in front of me, meaning it sounded like it was in the engine side of the clutch housing. If I pressed in on the clutch the knock stopped. If I decelerated the knock would stop as well. The knock is present only in 3rd gear. I was told to the check the U-joint so I pulled the rear end and installed a new one. The knock didn't change. At the advice of good people I checked the starter bolts and they were the correct length and were not damaged. I was also told that in the video it appeared the throwout bearing was riding on the pressure plate fingers. I checked and it appeared there was about 1" of freeplay. It was suggested there was a problem with the throwout bearing hub. I dropped the rear end and pulled the transmission. I found no problems with it. I also checked the pressure plate to assure it was tight and there were no broken fingers. I also checked to assure the steel plate was installed for the flywheel bolts. I saw no shavings or indications of the bolts hitting the back of the engine. I contacted the rebuilder and he mentioned he noticed and odd bend to one of the shifter forks when he rebuilt the transmission and that he replaced it. He felt there could still be a problem with the shifting tower so he shipped me another. I reassembled the car and installed the new shifting tower. The car shifted smooth in all gears however the knock was still present in 3rd gear. The rebuilder asked me to pull the transmission which I did and took it to him. He went through it on the spot and found that the Main Drive Gear and the Main Shaft both had end play to the tune of .050. He corrected this and I took the transmission back and installed it. Once again the knock was still there in 3rd gear only and was unchanged. I pulled the starter and installed a spare as it was suggested that I may have a broken spring. No difference. I jacked up one rear wheel and ran the car through the gears and the knock was still there but it may have been a little lighter. The rebuilder built another transmission and sent it this week. I pulled the rear end again but this time I pulled the u-joint and test ran with the old transmission still in place. The knock is still there in 3rd gear only but it's much lighter. Since I have the new transmission I will install it. I don't know what it means though that the knock is much lighter with the drive shaft disconnected. Video of the knock... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMb7d...ature=youtu.be

06-01-2012, 10:44 PM	#2
columbiA Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 1,746	Re: 3rd gear knock updated 6/1/12 Well,with no rear end to put a slight load on the trans the knock will sound lighter.It still sounds like something rubbing as well as a knocking sound.

06-01-2012, 10:56 PM	#3
H. L. Chauvin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,179	Re: 3rd gear knock updated 6/1/12 Kevin, At this point, we could all sit here, line up like on a quiz show, & see who "guesses" the correct answer. However, I admire your professional, intelligent choice of stating the facts as you go, not playing a guessing game, & like a professional surgeon, remaining silent & intelligently & meticulously investigating this very serious matter. Thanks for your professionalism & patience. Sometimes people who want to appear intelligent should never miss an opportunity to remain silent.

06-02-2012, 01:43 AM	#5
H. L. Chauvin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,179	Re: 3rd gear knock updated 6/1/12 Kevin, "Wow"! All of your internal parts are so professionally clean! Your observations so far are "right-on"; & no doubt you have what it takes to pinpoint the exact mechanical problem . Even though many of us have sincere "guesses" of what we think is the problem, it would be best if you make this final announcement of the final solution. After "you" find the noise, you will no doubt have a wonderful piece of machinery that your entire family can be proud to have. This will be such a great & "inspirational" mystical story to share with your grand-children or young cousins sitting on your lap when you get old -- it can teach them the old vintage U. S. Military Combat saying: "When the going gets rough, the rough gets going -- never give up." I used it on my (4) sucessful children. One can clearly see that both you "&" your rebuilder definitely took pride in this great work & that your rebuilder is definitely not some over the tracks, back of town Rookie; however, with sincere, profound respect for him & his work, like all of us, he is working with 80 year worn parts & old machinery -- similar to a very good doctor performing 90 year old "nursing home" surgery, where the surgeon does not have too much to work with in the beginning. Your rebuilder should be very highly commended for his perseverance & wanting to help you. This will no doubt be an interesting mystical story with a happy ending. Just hopes this inspires all Model A owners to have compassion for sincerely respecting others in need.

06-02-2012, 04:31 PM	#9
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,392	Re: 3rd gear knock updated 6/1/12 POST #6..................Did you do that BEFORE installing the "new" transmission?? Paul in CT

06-02-2012, 08:26 AM	#6
TinCup Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: OKC / Tonkawa, Ok. Posts: 1,977	Re: 3rd gear knock updated 6/1/12 Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Wow my house isn't that clean! Good luck. __________________ Oklahoma City Model A Restorers Group.

06-02-2012, 04:20 PM	#8
Kevin - Illinois Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ottawa, Illinois Posts: 401	Re: 3rd gear knock updated 6/1/12 Here's the latest video. Please let me know if you see anything wrong that could cause the knock, and anything wrong with the assembly. Thanks - Kevin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-miy...ature=youtu.be

06-02-2012, 04:33 PM	#10
Kevin - Illinois Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ottawa, Illinois Posts: 401	Re: 3rd gear knock updated 6/1/12 Hi Paul, if you are referring to the finger adjustments and such, yes I did.

06-02-2012, 05:08 PM	#11
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,392	Re: 3rd gear knock updated 6/1/12 Kevin: No . Did you run the engine WITHOUT the trans attached?? Paul

06-02-2012, 06:49 PM	#12
H. L. Chauvin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,179	Re: 3rd gear knock updated 6/1/12 Kevin, At this point after seeing both videos, if possible, with the newer transmission removed, I would: A. Place both old & new transmissions in 3rd, & try to turn them clockwise first by hand, & if possible, rotate each with a half inch drill to check for rotating noise. B. Perform suggestion in message # 12, i.e., run engine without transmission, (if not already done), & even try applying slight rearward pressure on the crankshaft pulley with a 2x4 while engine is running to check for engine noise. (Do not get hit by the fan.) Last edited by H. L. Chauvin; 06-02-2012 at 06:51 PM. Reason: typo

06-02-2012, 07:03 PM	#13
James Rogers Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Asheville,NC Posts: 3,104	Re: 3rd gear knock updated 6/1/12 Last resort, check the pilot bearing for roughness.Possibility the gears in first and second don't put quite the same pressure on it and it only clan third. In my mind this is all that is left. __________________ http://www.model-a-ford-4bangers.com/

06-02-2012, 07:11 PM	#14
James Rogers Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Asheville,NC Posts: 3,104	Re: 3rd gear knock updated 6/1/12 By the way, don't run the motor without the transmission unless you remove the clutch and pressure plate. If the clutch disk gets off center even by a little it can cause serious vibrations and sling the plate all the way out and might get dangerous with baaaaad vibrations. __________________ http://www.model-a-ford-4bangers.com/

06-02-2012, 07:50 PM	#16
H. L. Chauvin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,179	Re: 3rd gear knock updated 6/1/12 Kevin, James has a good point. And why only in 3rd? The transmission tower front fork is pushing the sliding 2nd gear "far" forward "only" in 3rd to mesh with the rear of the main drive gear. In "only" noisy 3rd, is the transmission main drive gear trying to move forward because of pressure from the tower's front fork when the shift lever is pulled back. Pilot bearing is a possibility.

06-02-2012, 08:33 PM	#17
Dick So. Cal. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: El Segundo CA Posts: 181	Re: 3rd gear knock updated 6/1/12 Is it possible that the flywheel to crankshaft bolts are a tad too long? We had that problem a few month ago. Repro bolts were too long. Pulled the engine, replaced the rear seal, used original bolts and all is well. Just a thought. Dick

06-02-2012, 09:14 PM	#18
H. L. Chauvin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,179	Re: 3rd gear knock updated 6/1/12 Kevin, Just humbly trying to explain Dick's very possible thought: Model A engines are on a slight angle such that the crankshaft would slide a few thousanths of an inch rearward if the crankshaft had any front/rear movement or play. In any gear or neutral, the crankshaft may remain rearward with no pressure pushing from the rear; however, in third when the transmission tower's front fork pushes on the main drive gear & flywheel, the longer protruding crankshaft bolts could be driven a few thousandths forward with the flywheel; hence, allowing the longer flywheel bolts to tap on the rear bearing cap, thus making this clattering noise. Starting to look like you have a situation similar to having two (2) Siamese Fighting Fish native to streams on the Indochinese Cambodian Border. Fish (A), the engine, looks fine. Fish (B) is the transmission & it looks fine. They only clash when you put them together.

06-02-2012, 09:51 PM	#19
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: 3rd gear knock updated 6/1/12 It kind of does sound like flywheel bolts hitting the rear bearing, but then pushing on the clutch is when the noise should happen, rather than when the clutch is released. The fact that it only does it in third is what throws me. So far I can't think of any reason, but it would be nice to know if it was tried without the tranny in place. That would/should cut the guessing or possiblities in half.

06-02-2012, 11:11 PM	#20
H. L. Chauvin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,179	Re: 3rd gear knock updated 6/1/12 Hi Tom, To add to this mystery, look at Kevin's #8 above; i.e., "no" noise when he lets up on the accelerator in 3rd gear. It appears that "only" in 3rd gear, noise starts "only" when the "engine" turns the transmission's main drive gear, & "not" when the propellor shaft turns the transmission's main drive gear, for example: A. No Noise: If forward pressure is greater in 3rd, when the clutch is depressed, there is even more forward pressure on the crankshaft assembly. At this point, "no" noise. The "engine" is "not" turning the transmission's main drive gear -- the rotating, coasting drive shaft is. B. No Noise: Again, if forward pressure is greater in 3rd, when the clutch is released, there is less forward pressure on the crankshaft assembly. Again, at this point, "no" noise "only" when he lets up on the accelerator. Again, the engine is winding down is "not" turning the transmission's main drive gear -- the drive shaft is with the vehicle's forward motion like descending a steep hill with an idling engine. C. *Noise:* Now, if forward pressure is greater in 3rd, when the clutch is released, there is less forward pressure on crankshaft assembly. At this point, "noise". The engine *"is"* turning the transmission's main drive gear -- the propellor shaft is "not". D. Any more suggestions?