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Old 04-09-2013, 03:27 PM   #1
funf
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Default Newbie question

Hello,
First of all, let me introduce myself as I have only recently joined this forum. My name is Stuart and I am in England living in a ill age called Olveston which is just north of Bristol. Last year I bought a 1930 two door Tudor with the large engine, left hand drive. And was originally registered in Denmark so it has it's speedometer and odometer in kilometres. I have had to do some re-commissioning work on the car but am very pleased with it and really enjoy driving it.
But I would like to tap into the huge knowledge base here at the Barn; It has been accepted wisdom ( at least over here) that all cars have the maximum braking effort on the front axle, what with the weight of the engine over the axle (considerable for a model A) and the forward weight shift as cars decelerate, dictates that in the order of 75% of braking is done by the front wheels. The weight clamping the tyres to the road thus allowing a lot of braking effort.
However with A's, all the wisdom I can find tells owners to adjust the brakes so that the rear brakes come on first and that the fronts should only start to work when the reas are at or near maximum effort. (as per the books by Les Andrews).
So my should A owners not adjust the brakes to favour the fronts?
Be gentle with me!
Stuart
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Old 04-09-2013, 03:31 PM   #2
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Default Re: Newbie question

Hello and Welcome. Tons of good knowledge here.

I am sure you will get good replies, but in order to be self reliant, Give a start by running a search from the Black Bar at the top of this page. Brake adjustments have been pretty well covered.
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Old 04-09-2013, 04:07 PM   #3
John Butts in CT
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Welcome, funf!

Could you share some photos of your "large engine?" In the US, with our taxation differing from the UK, all Model "A" engines were the same.

Also, does your car have flip-out turn indicators, lights atop the mudguards, and/or a sliding roof panel? (I collect Model "A" ads from all countries, and I've seen all of these options.)

As for your question, I'm sure there are many on this forum who have more technical experience than me, but I adjust my brakes so that my fronts and rears lock up at the same time, and I've been doing that ever since an "old timer" showed me how to do it on a gravel surface in 1968. I've never hit anything, and nothing has hit me.

Enjoy your "A!"
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Old 04-09-2013, 04:19 PM   #4
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Default Re: Newbie question

The brakes should be adjusted so the rears engage first, then the fronts, approx. a 60-40 ratio. Les Andrews is correct.

And welcome to the Barn.
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Old 04-09-2013, 04:30 PM   #5
John Butts in CT
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Thanks, 700rpm. My tutor simply had me locking up all four wheels on gravel, and sliding to a straight stop. I'll try to check on the fore/aft ratio when I can. I know that when all four wheels are elevated, the rears do engage first, so there may be some truth in the folk wisdom of my youth.

Isn't it great to welcome a new member in the UK?
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:48 PM   #6
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The geometry of the linkage (angles of levers etc.) is designed to engage the rear before the front. In actually I find no problem when applying the brakes adjusted in this manner as the car stops fine.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:05 PM   #7
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Welcome to the barn Stuart.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:42 PM   #8
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The reason for starting brake action in the rear first is to prevent the rear end of the vehicle from coming around the front. It keeps the vehicle straight in a stop. As mentioned above, although, the back wheels begin to engage first, the front and back will come to max braking force at the same time.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:51 PM   #9
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Default Re: Newbie question

Stuart,

Welcome. I haven't been to England since before the 'big wheel' in London. It's time for another visit. I do remember that we are people separated by a common language and may not understand some things. So, be gentle with us, too.

The Les Andrews books (three in all) are good source of information.

Bill
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Old 04-10-2013, 12:50 AM   #10
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John, This is really interesting .....As shown here in Vince Falters site the UK Model A's had a much smaller 4 cyl engine verses Europe's A's. So his being from Denmark has the larger engine. Also of note is that the UK engines had a true "C" engine and it wasn't a misnomer.

http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/modelcmyth.htm
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:51 AM   #11
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The English big engine he refers to us our normal model a motor. England made a smaller bore engine. Looks the same but was something like 20hp. I also vote for 60 rear and 40 front. Properly adjusted, a model a can stop on a dime. Want a real kick? Get a set of flat head Ted floaters. The car will stop like magic.
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Old 04-10-2013, 03:25 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funf View Post
Hello,
First of all, let me introduce myself as I have only recently joined this forum. My name is Stuart and I am in England living in a ill age called Olveston which is just north of Bristol. Last year I bought a 1930 two door Tudor with the large engine, left hand drive. And was originally registered in Denmark so it has it's speedometer and odometer in kilometres. I have had to do some re-commissioning work on the car but am very pleased with it and really enjoy driving it.
But I would like to tap into the huge knowledge base here at the Barn; It has been accepted wisdom ( at least over here) that all cars have the maximum braking effort on the front axle, what with the weight of the engine over the axle (considerable for a model A) and the forward weight shift as cars decelerate, dictates that in the order of 75% of braking is done by the front wheels. The weight clamping the tyres to the road thus allowing a lot of braking effort.
However with A's, all the wisdom I can find tells owners to adjust the brakes so that the rear brakes come on first and that the fronts should only start to work when the reas are at or near maximum effort. (as per the books by Les Andrews).
So my should A owners not adjust the brakes to favour the fronts?
Be gentle with me!
Stuart
Even on a modern car, the rear brakes engage first, then the fronts. This sets up a balance effect. The bias changes from rear to front very early in braking, so early, you will not notice it. It is done by different size wheel cylinders and load sharing spring inside the master cylinder. Of course this cylinder ratio thing means nothing on a stock model A with its mechanical brakes.
The ratios are set up on the model A brakes by changing the angle of spread through out the travel of the operating cams inside the brake drums. The change causes the fronts to be applied slightly quicker than the rears as the pedal is pushed down, so when the rears engage first, the fronts will apply slightly later, but then increase pressure quicker and then pass the rears as the pedal gets pushed down further. This is also why it is very important to follow the service bulletins when adjusting brakes. When done correctly, your brakes will be excellent for a car eighty years old.
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:52 AM   #13
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Thumbs up Re: Newbie question

An Aussie helping out a Brit .....

Good thread !


Welcome






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Old 04-10-2013, 05:31 AM   #14
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Welcome !!!

Lot's of help on here and Quite a few Brit's as well!!!!!!
Are you in the British Model A Ford Club ? www.mafcgb.org.uk
Hope to see you around maybe Gaydon All Ford Rally late July
John Cochran
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Old 04-10-2013, 06:26 AM   #15
dave in australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trulyvintage View Post
An Aussie helping out a Brit .....

Good thread !


Welcome






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Old 04-10-2013, 08:37 AM   #16
funf
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A big thank you to all who have troubled to reply to my question and to welcome me. It does indeed seem a friendly forum.
Thanks especially to Dave in Australia for the technical reason why the brakes are as they are.(wife and I are going to Australia in October for the umpteenth time, and I shall be going to Bathurst!!)
In response to John Butt in CT, mine has the Nominal 40 horsepower engine same as in the USA; Model A's made in England had a smaller 2.2 litre engine of nominally 24 horsepower because the tax laws in those days favoured a small engine. These cars had the throttle pedal and brake transposed so that the throttle was in the middle. Although even the small capacity engine was large by the standards of the time over here. Mine has no other extras. Although it is a 1930 model, it is fitted with a 1928 engine, indeed, I have the Danish registration documents and these shows that the car has had two engine changes in Denmark. What old they have been doing to it!?
Stuart
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Old 04-10-2013, 08:48 AM   #17
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Enjoy Bathurst, if you haven't been before, it is an eye opener. The track is a lot steeper than it appears on TV, especially going up the cutting, and down the dipper.
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Old 04-10-2013, 08:58 AM   #18
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Hi everybody, as another relative newcomer in the Uk to A's and the forum I am full of praise and appreciation for everything here, a most valuable source of info. I must however agree with Bill in Socal about two nations separated by a common language. Us poor Brits need a glossary of terms to cross reference parts - dynamo/ generator, mufflers / silence, gas / petrol etc. ( not to mention spelling)
Now I don't want to start any trouble but I do wonder whose language it is and who is responsible for this problem ......
John
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:11 AM   #19
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Welcome to a wonderful site funf
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:24 AM   #20
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Dave in Australia:

What is a cutting and a dipper?
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