Model A engine swap

[VFRhugh]

I purchased a nicely restored 1930 tudor this spring. Long story short is the engine rebuild was less than stellar. Looking at the co$t of available replacement/rebuild options I can see why people put SBC engines in their model A's. I personally don't want to go that route but I really like the sound of the flathead V8. I haven't been able to find out what the weight difference is between the various models ford produced. The V8-60hp seems like a good choice but once again where should I look for information? I'm thinking 50 years ago this was a common swap. Unfortunately a lot of information from the past is not available online today.
Thinking about it in Texas

[40 Deluxe]

From what I've read the 60 V8 is a step down in power. You would be going from 200.5 cubic inches down to 135 cubic inches-a lot less torque! Remember, the horsepower rating is merely calculated from the torque output times RPM divided by 5250 (if I remember right). An engine that makes peak torque at low RPM will have a lower horsepower rating than an engine that makes less torque but at a much higher RPM. Example: Would you put a 300 horsepower small block V8 in your 80,000 lb. semi? Yet a 300 horsepower Cummins or Detroit will work just fine! Difference? RPM. The V8 horsepower peak may be around 5,000 RPM with 300-350 ft. lbs. torque where the Cummins or Detroit may be 12-1400 RPM and 12-1500 ft. lbs. torque.
So horsepower ratings can be misleading. Look more at the torque readings and at what RPM max. torque is produced.
There are books dealing just with putting the full size flathead in an A and lots of info here.

[Brendan]

I have heard that people that put V8 60s in As pull it out and put the 4 banger back in.
I don't have any experience with 60s, this is only what I have read

[VFRhugh]

One of my biggest concerns with the 4 banger is vibration and I was thinking a V8 would be inherently smoother. It's not often but occasionally I need to go at least 55 mph. My A vibrates excessively anywhere over45. I would prefer a balanced, pressure oil system, built 4 banger but the cost is a little over the top for me. Maybe there's not a better cost effective option. Any information is appreciated,
Hugh

[Henry Floored]

What has me in a constant state of amazement is the mental leap so many people take when it comes to engine swaps. It goes Flathead broke put in a Chevy. I realize that the hot rod ragazines promoted this malarkey as gospel but I think it's foolish. While the sbc fits early engine bays fairly well the usual corresponding trans swap that includes the 350 automatic, now that is a bastard swap if I have ever seen one! The later Gm autos are even worse. You have cut the backbone right out of the frame to get those leakers in.

A well kept secret is that the common 221,260,289 & 302 Ford engine when coupled to a C4 auto does far and away require less cutting on the frame. In fact in many cases no cutting.

But the magazines never tell you that. Instead they typically showcase high end rods with complete new chassis design for the Gm garbage from the get go.

The Ford engine falls down in one significant way and that is engine length. That problem has been solved. I know I'd rather invest in a "shorty" water pump and pullies than take to an original Ford frame with a torch to get a bastard engine in there.

From 1935- 1940 there is a clearance problem with the Ford from pump to crossmember. With about 80% less cutting one can alter that crossmember to run a Ford. The X member or K member are the backbone of early Ford chassis. They should be kept as intact as possible.

There are millions of small OHV Ford engines out there to be had very reasonably. They are lighter than the Chev and in the case of the C4 trans and physical engine width they are more slender that the Chev.

[VFRhugh]

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Hugh

My SBC reference was metaphorical. You can spend $6K to $10K+ on a modernized Model A 4 banger with a lightened flywheel and V8 clutch. Even then it's not a slam dunk on a quality rebuild. Before my engine went south I'd converted to power hydraulic brakes and modern shocks. It drives and stops great. Trying to see if there might be better option for the same $ or less. Not looking to convert to a hot rod. Also don't want an automatic.
Thanks again,
Hugh

[JSeery]

This is one strange thread! But, I'll jump in anyway, how in the world would rebuilding a V60 be cheaper than a 4!!? Even rebuilding a flathead V8 is not cheap!

[flatheadmurre]

One thing in favour for a V8 60 is that they fit in a model A without hacking up the frame.

A fullsize flatty takes some cutting to make it fit.

[rotorwrench]

The model A cars have a tight fit between the radiator and the firewall. The engines that fit the best are the early V8 engines through 48. The 8BA series will also fit but will fit better if modified to use all the pump, cam, fan, and distributor parts from the early 221 & 239 engines. The fan on the generator set up of the 39 standard & earlier cars will work OK on a 30 or 31. The 28 & 29 may need the fan blades shortened. Its getting more expensive to purchase or modify a radiator to work with an AV8 conversion too. Expect to pay near $800 US bucks for one. The rear axle then falls into question. The model A will work but some folks update to a later Ford axle through 1941 and a later top loader transmission for some synchronized shifting. There are kits available to use them with the model A rear axle but it will lock you in to where the engine will be located. The added horsepower and weight also brings in frame strength questions. The 1932 K-members were used on a lot of AV8s to strengthen and reinforce that somewhat weak and usually rusted area around the aft engine/transmission mounts in the original frame.

It's been done a bunch of times by a lot of hot rodders young & old so it is do-able but there is no bolt in option other than another banger. A model B engine is a good choice if you can find one in good enough shape or just find a counter balanced crank. The counter balanced crank shaft smoothed them out a lot.

[Charlie Stephens]

Hugh,

Are you sure you are not mixing the V8 60 with the V8 85? Fifty years ago I had a V8 85 in my Model A roadster but don't remember ever hearing of using a V8 60 at that time. I don't think you would be happy with the V8 60 with it's smaller displacement.

Charlie Stephens

[john in illinois]

Hugh,
Here is a good place to get a roadworthy model A engine.
http://antiqueenginerebuilding.com/MODELA.html
I have one in my 1930 Tudor. I also have hydraulic brakes and an overdrive transmission. I have driven from Illinois to Montana over the Rockies with no problems.I cruise at 55-60. If you are interested call Rich Falluca and talk to him. He has good prices

I am building an A V8 and believe me it is a huge project and muc h more expensive Than setting up a good 4 banger.

John

[Planojc]

You can get a balanced insert engine with counter weight crank, v8 clutch from Rich and your vibration woes are over. I went with a long block for a little over 5k.

[VFRhugh]

John,
What are the particulars if your engine. I have visited antique engineering web site and there is a lot of good information there. It's beginning to look like I'll have to bite the bullet on a quality A engine
Thanks for the replies,
Hugh

[Bassman/NZ]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

One thing in favour for a V8 60 is that they fit in a model A without hacking up the frame.

A fullsize flatty takes some cutting to make it fit.

Not true if you plan it.

[scooder]

Originally Posted by Bassman/NZ

Not true if you plan it.

I agree, good planning, right combination of parts and some research will get the proper size flathead in an uncut Model A frame and firewall.
Martin.

[CT AV8]

Originally Posted by scooder

I agree, good planning, right combination of parts and some research will get the proper size flathead in an uncut Model A frame and firewall.
Martin.

I also agree. In addition, I had my original Model A radiator outlets/ inlets modified to V8 setup for $225 and it works great.

[trainguy]

You can,t go wrong buying a engine from Rich.Keep the banger.

[oldredford]

Model A engines don't vibrate if they are rebuilt properly at a good machine shop. PERIOD

[cas3]

i know of a v8 60 in a model a, and as stated, there is no power upgrade. it is cute, and smooth, lots of fabrication involved, but a good A motor will out run it

[skidmarks]

Ford industrial OHV. The one I built smoked the V8 cars at latimore