Rotor position at TDC

[fried okra]

I swapped out the distributor on my '31 Tudor 12v engine.

Next I was gonna set the timing using the Nu-Rex tool. I am visibly at TDC on #1 piston and get a slight motion on the timing pin against the timing gear but it does not readily go into the timing gear hole. I assume the timing pin is just too tight a fit.

Anyway, I was expecting to see the rotor at the #1 cylinder pin in the distributor cap. Instead the rotor is 180 off from where I expected it to be.

Is this rotor position normal or am I missing something?

[ModelA29]

You dropped the distributor in 180 degrees out of sync. Lift it up and spin the rotor to #1 cylinder and drop it back in.

[fried okra]

Thanks....I've cranked the engine trying to start it since dropping the distributor in.

Does that make a difference possibly?

[J Franklin]

TDC on # 1 on the compression stroke? Double check if not verified.

[rotorwrench]

The model A distributor is rather unique in that the breaker cam can be positioned in any location. The cam gears don't always have a deep dimple to indicate position. Some are so shallow that they can be hard to detect. Roll it up on the #1 cylinder compression stroke and start feeling for it before it reaches TDC. Make certain it's on compression and not exhaust. Once it is positioned, the breaker cam can be positioned to fire #1. Be sure the spark control lever is properly positioned before setting the breaker opening point. The distributor rotor is set with the breaker cam so it should align with the #1 terminal.

[fried okra]

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rotorwrench....I saw the piston coming up flush with the top of the block, so I assume that is on compression stroke?

[abachman3]

The piston comes up twice in each cycle. Once is compression, the second is exhaust.

[JayJay]

Okra - when the piston is rising before TDC, on compression stroke both valves are shut tight. After you pass TDC both valves remain shut tight. This is the TDC you want to set the timing. I’ve found that the NuRex tool does a fine job when used as directed.

When on exhaust stroke, when the piston is rising before TDC the exhaust valve is open. After TDC the intake valve opens.

You can watch the valves through the spark plug hole.

Silly point, but you are rotating the engine clockwise (when viewed from the front)?

[fried okra]

Thanks JayJay....will need to check if can see the valves at TDC....just been looking at the piston.

Should the distributor rotor be at #1 plug contact in distributor on both exhaust and compression stroke when piston at TDC?

Yep, been been rotating engine clockwise when viewed from the front....thx.

[Randall]

Rotor pointing at no.1 only on compression stroke

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by fried okra

Thanks JayJay....will need to check if can see the valves at TDC....just been looking at the piston.

Should the distributor rotor be at #1 plug contact in distributor on both exhaust and compression stroke when piston at TDC?

Yep, been been rotating engine clockwise when viewed from the front....thx.

Distributor is driven by the camshaft. One revolution of the camshaft (and one revolution of the distributor) equals two revolutions of the crankshaft. So no, TDC of #1 cylinder on compression the distributor rotor points to #1, and at TDC of #1 cylinder on exhaust (which is TDC on compression of #4 cylinder) the rotor points to #4.

[ModelA29]

Originally Posted by fried okra

Thanks....I've cranked the engine trying to start it since dropping the distributor in.

Does that make a difference possibly?

You can lift it anywhere and turn it 180 degrees so it drops back into the drive slot. When the pin is in the dimple it's always at TDC.

[ModelA29]

Originally Posted by fried okra

Should the distributor rotor be at #1 plug contact in distributor on both exhaust and compression stroke when piston at TDC?

No it only points at #1 when it fires on the compression stroke.
It turns 1/2 crank speed so it fires the plug every other up stroke of the piston.

[mcgarrett]

fried okra,
I have found this to be the most helpful information source when it concerns ignition timing, tune-ups, etc.

http://www.modelabasics.com/Ignition.htm

[mcgarrett]

http://www.modelabasics.com/Ignition.htm

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by ModelA29

You dropped the distributor in 180 degrees out of sync. Lift it up and spin the rotor to #1 cylinder and drop it back in.

Nope. The slot on the bottom of the distributor is offset. The distributor will only drop down into the slot in one position. If he is 180° off he will have to loosen the rotor and turn just the rotor 180° to line up with TDC on #1 compression stroke. No need to lift the distributor.

[700rpm]

I always make that gear dimple a little deeper when I put in an new cam gear.

[brokenspoke]

Originally Posted by y-blockhead

nope. The slot on the bottom of the distributor is offset. The distributor will only drop down into the slot in one position. If he is 180° off he will have to loosen the rotor and turn just the rotor 180° to line up with tdc on #1 compression stroke. No need to lift the distributor.

bingo

[nkaminar]

Trying to start the engine with the timing out 180 degrees can be a lot of fun. It will produce a loud bang out the exhaust pipe or maybe flow the muffler apart. Put a juice can on the exhaust pipe to see how far it can be launched. Advance the spark so that you are sure to fire the plugs when the exhaust valve is open. Remove all but one spark plug leads so that the exhaust system is full of air/fuel when the plug fires.

I used to do this on an old tractor with no muffler and an exhaust pipe that was pointed straight up. A can protected the exhaust from rain. The can would shoot up 100 feet or so.

[Bob Bidonde]

This picture shows where the rotor belongs for timing the ignition.

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Nope. The slot on the bottom of the distributor is offset. The distributor will only drop down into the slot in one position. If he is 180° off he will have to loosen the rotor and turn just the rotor 180° to line up with TDC on #1 compression stroke. No need to lift the distributor.

I believe OP stated he was using the NuRex tool. If so it's pretty much foolproof. At #1 TDC compression you loosen the distributor cam, rotate the cam a couple of times, stop with the tool resting against the #4 terminal, then tighten the cam.

[Dan McEachern]

Easy way to find your compression stroke is to just put a finger over the spark plug hole while you are cranking the engine over and when you feel pressure increasing, you're there. Now look in the hole as the piston comes up, and start using the timing pin. When the pin drops in the detent, stop and set your point cam.

[J Franklin]

Dan, Well said it really is that easy!

[katy]

Originally Posted by fried okra

I am visibly at TDC on #1 piston and get a slight motion on the timing pin against the timing gear but it does not readily go into the timing gear hole. I assume the timing pin is just too tight a fit.

Try using a stubby phillips screwdriver in place of the pin.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by ModelA29

You can lift it anywhere and turn it 180 degrees so it drops back into the drive slot. When the pin is in the dimple it's always at TDC.

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Nope. The slot on the bottom of the distributor is offset. The distributor will only drop down into the slot in one position. If he is 180° off he will have to loosen the rotor and turn just the rotor 180° to line up with TDC on #1 compression stroke. No need to lift the distributor.

[QUOTE=JayJay;2293572]I believe OP stated he was using the NuRex tool.

JayJay, Please read what I was referring too. Regardless if you use the Nurex tool or not, you can not just lift the distributor and turn it 180°!

[JayJay]

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[QUOTE=Y-Blockhead;2293610]

Originally Posted by JayJay

I believe OP stated he was using the NuRex tool.

JayJay, Please read what I was referring too. Regardless if you use the Nurex tool or not, you can not just lift the distributor and turn it 180°!

YB - I agree, and wasn’t trying to imply otherwise. If the distributor is properly in the head and the rotor is pointing 180 degrees out, then likely you have the exhaust stroke, not the compression stroke.

[Afordman31]

Some of the cam gears don't have a very deep dimple. After I locate the dimple I use a small mirror and flashlight to see if the dimple is perfectly in line with the pin hole.
Alway's remember to install and snug the pin at this point.

[fried okra]

Good input group, thx....am making progress here.

[Bruce of MN]

I have left the pin there too many times, but luckily it fell to under the radiator, so I painted it gold to try to remember to screw it where it belongs.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Afordman31

Some of the cam gears don't have a very deep dimple. After I locate the dimple I use a small mirror and flashlight to see if the dimple is perfectly in line with the pin hole.
Alway's remember to install and snug the pin at this point.

I know many people think those degree scales that go on the front of the engine are an unnecessary gizmo but with one fitted, you can pretty much go straight to TDC once you have done it once and marked the pulley.
I found the scale VERY useful timing my diamond B engine fitted with an A distributor. I found the dimple using the pin (and B timing cover) but I didn't mark the pulley at zero. I marked it at 19° advanced, then turned the motor back to where that mark was at the zero mark (the engine was now at TDC) and set the timing in the usual Model A way. Perfect!

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

I know many people think those degree scales that go on the front of the engine are an unnecessary gizmo but with one fitted, you can pretty much go straight to TDC once you have done it once and marked the pulley.

As Synchro state, once marked it makes #1 TDC easy to find.

I actually set my timing a little after TDC because I have a Nurex Auto Timer and I want to limit total timing to ~30° BTDC.

[Bruce of MN]

I’ve done the same, but my pulley flange is too narrow for a mark, so I filed a small notch.

[Bob Bidonde]

Y-Blockhead, is that sexy looking fan belt noisy?

[john charlton]

Years ago I forgot to refit the timing pin . After a short drive the engine was well covered in oil . I was amazed at how much oil had come out of that tiny hole !!! The pin was lost on the road somewhere .

John in sunny Chandler AZ .

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

Y-Blockhead, is that sexy looking fan belt noisy?

Bob, No the segmented belt is not noisy. They are directional tho so you have to ensure they are installed corectly. I use them on my table saw as well.

I originally installed it because with the thicker Murrey Horn Harmonic Balancer I could not fit the stock type belt between to pulley and the frame.

An added bonus is that they can be shortened so you can bypass your water pump or generator if you lose a bearing while out on the road. Until you can get to a place to repair or change them safely. (I have never had to test this tho).