Engine locked up

[ron103140]

I drove my roadster into the garage last night, every thing sounded fine. I closed the fuel valve off and let the engine run out of fuel. I went to start it this morning and it is completely locked up. Can't budge it with hand crank. Plenty of battery. I did check the oil and found it to be way over filled. Why I don't know. Before I start screwing something up that doesent even relate to my problem, I am asking for your advice as to where to start looking for the trouble. The engine has a "C" head, a "B" carburator and intake. No other changes. Thanks for any help in advance. Ron

[Mike V. Florida]

Remove the plugs and see if it turns over.

[SeaSlugs]

smell the oil, if it smells like gas the engine is hydrolocked or youve been running entirely too rich.

oil could be overfilled due to headgasket blown and filled with water, could have also filled a piston or two with water.

so yes pull the plugs and see if you can turn it over with the crank.

[gweilbaker]

Could the starter be jammed? Put in 3rd, key off, and rock car by pushing forward and backward.

[Mitch//pa]

starter stuck or remove the fan belt

[James Rogers]

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gweilbaker is correct. Sometimes the starter will lock up without making a sound. It will feel like you are pushing on a rock instead of the starter button.

[1crosscut]

After removing the plugs turn the engine over with the hand crank. If the head gasket has leaked (my suspicion since the oil level is high) and filled a cylinder up water will squirt out of the plug(s) and make a hell of a mess for you if you use the starter.
Did you pop the radiator cap and check the water level?

[chap52]

1crosscut x2. Is the oil "milky", is the radiator level low?

[Will N]

I vote for hydrolocked. Check the radiator water level.

[Tom Wesenberg]

The first thing I'd do, since the oil shows too full, is crack open the oil drain plug and see if antifreeze comes out. If it does then pull the pan and head so you can clean out the pan and check for a blown head gasket or cracks, etc.

I did mention seeing antifreeze in the oil pan because I know no one would use plain water in the cooling system.

[kenparker]

As Tom says, Crack the Drain Plug and see if water/antifreeze comes out. It is not unusual for a tablespoon of water to be in the very bottom of the oil pan. What you are looking for is more than a tablespoon. The water atin the bottom of thepan raised the oil lever. Also remove the plugs - carefully. If your headgasket has leaked overnight, one or more of the cylinders will be full of water - hydrolocked.

I had to replace a customers engine - '31 model S Coupe- last spring because it had hydrolocked in the fall of 2014. Not knowing what the problem was, He let it sit all winter. Come spring when the problem was finally diagonosed, cylinder walls were rusted and the rings were stuck to the cyl walls. The plugs were also rusty.

We replaced the engine and I have since rebuilt his damaged engine. The bottm end was not damaged.

Gist of this is do not let the water sit in the engine where it does not belong. Water in the cylinders is a NO_NO. ken

[Tom Wesenberg]

Ken's right about getting the water/antifreeze out as quickly as possible. Also don't turn the engine over until any water/antifreeze is completely drained from the pan, so the oil pump doesn't pick it up and spread it to the bearings and valve train. Remember, it will also be in the dipper tray, so I'd pull the oil pan before turning the engine over.

[Rainmaker Ron]

Originally Posted by gweilbaker

Could the starter be jammed? Put in 3rd, key off, and rock car by pushing forward and backward.

You nailed it with the stuck starter! Please note that pushing forward in High gear will release the bendix. Pushing backward will only lock tighter.

Rainmaker

[tbirdtbird]

"stuck starter!"
does not account for way over full oil......

[Marshall57]

If you have any doubt, change the oil. Take a look at it and make sure it is all good, no water and doesn't smell like gas. Changing the oil might be needed and it's cheep insurance when in doubt.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Geez, it sure would be easy for someone's head to start spinning as fast as a windmill reading some of these answers huh!

Some good thoughts to ponder though....

[700rpm]

Try the easy stuff first.

[ron103140]

What a lot of knowledge. I am very happy to be a Ford Barner. I had no clue where to start checking my problem. Now I do. The thing I don't understand is how it can lock up so tight that I can't budge it at all with the crank. It won't move a fraction. I'll pull the plugs first to check for water, then crack the oil pan drain to see if water is there. The oil is not milky so this had to have happened overnight. Thanks all for the help and I will let you know the findings here I hope. Ron

[James Rogers]

Starter locked.

[jw hash]

before you go into a lot of work, put the car in high gear with the emergency brake off and try rocking the car back and forth. if it has water on top of a piston it will turn over backwards and if the starter is the problem it should break it loose.

[tbirdtbird]

so with either problem the engine will turn backwards and you still will not know what is wrong.

then if it was hydrolocked and you hit the starter you will now slam the piston up against the water and bend the rod. Now you have 2 problems instead of one.

what could be easier than pulling 4 spark plugs

[P.S.]

Question:

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

what could be easier than pulling 4 spark plugs

Answer: Being an armchair mechanic on Fordbarn.

Why is everyone except you and me overlooking his "way over full" oil level that happened overnight?

[Henry's Lady's Man]

Originally Posted by gweilbaker

Could the starter be jammed? Put in 3rd, key off, and rock car by pushing forward and backward.

X2 - This happened to me ONCE, bendix gear was stuck in flywheel. Try rocking it in 3rd.

[pooch]

If the problem is hydro locking and it happened when engine was not going eg overnight....... would any water drip into the scupper trays or the valve chamber etc..ready to be pulled into engine via oil pump or scooped up by conrod scuppers if engine is turned over.?

Then if the oil/water was drained and head removed and , say, it was found to be a simple head gasket blow, or maybe even just needed a head tighten and fill with fresh oil and see what happens, again along as engine has not been turned over, would this get all water out of future oil circulation just by dropping it out of sump plug ?

I suppose the question is, if there is water found in sump from an overnight leak, is it imperative that the pan be removed because it must be in the scupper trays ?

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

so with either problem the engine will turn backwards and you still will not know what is wrong.

then if it was hydrolocked and you hit the starter you will now slam the piston up against the water and bend the rod. Now you have 2 problems instead of one.

what could be easier than pulling 4 spark plugs

I agree and would start by pulling the 4 spark plugs and cracking the drain plug. For the oil to go overfull overnight the coolant must have leaked into the pan, and probably came past the pistons. I wouldn't worry about turning the engine until any coolant is out of the pan and dip tray, then you can put the car in high gear and push it forward.

Remember, you want forward motion so the flywheel spins the Bendix rearward and out of engagement.

[Gerald1961]

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Hi Guys,

as a Newbie I would like to know if the coolant level has changed in the radiator? If the engine is stuck from water, it should be missing somewhere.

Next question:

If the head gasket is blown or the block cracked and internal water leaks are likely, you should find water in the oil or vice versa?. This COULD explain the oil level because th water sits down in the oil pan.

Good luck
Gerald

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I agree and would start by pulling the 4 spark plugs and cracking the drain plug. For the oil to go overfull overnight the coolant must have leaked into the pan, and probably came past the pistons. I wouldn't worry about turning the engine until any coolant is out of the pan and dip tray, then you can put the car in high gear and push it forward.

Remember, you want forward motion so the flywheel spins the Bendix rearward and out of engagement.

Tom, to do this, you have to put the transmission in reverse and push forward or use high and push rearward to reverse the rotation of the engine. This will unlock the starter.

[tbirdtbird]

I am getting the impression that many posters are unfamiliar with the concept of hydrolocking. And a proper diagnosis must account for all of the findings, not just one.

Start with the principle that a liquid cannot be compressed.

we worked on a very expensive diesel out of a Mack truck years ago that had hydrolocked. Not only was the rod bent (wish I had a pic; very impressive that a rod could bend 40°), AND the rod journal on the crank was torqued. Meaning a very expensive crank was totally destroyed.....that type of problem cannot be repaired and if you try to use the crank the motor will never run right no matter what you do

we are 4 plugs away from knowing what really happened. If the OP waits too long to pull the plugs the water will gradually seep past the rings into the crankcase and there will be none to be found when he pulls the plugs. And the saga will never end because who knows what step will be skipped then

[VFRhugh]

I had a cracked head that allowed water into the oil enough to emulsify. After repair & reassembly I wondered how the trays looked. I did not want to remove the pan because I just got it leak free. Removing the oil filler tube allowed access to #1 & #2 cylinder trays. I vacuumed the emulsified oil out through the opening. What ever water remained quickly evaporated. My oil is clear. No sign of water after a month of nearly daily use.
Hugh

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

Tom, to do this, you have to put the transmission in reverse and push forward or use high and push rearward to reverse the rotation of the engine. This will unlock the starter.

James, no, you want the engine to over run the drive, which means the engine turns in the normal direction, but turns faster than the starter. This will happen when you push the car forward in high gear (high gear for the best mechanical advantage).

When the engine starts on each normal start, the same thing happens. The engine fires up and the speed of the ring gear teeth is faster than the starter pinion teeth, so it speeds up the pinion and winds it back out of engagement. Of course the drive will grind if the operator doesn't stop cranking the starter as soon as the engine fires up.

[burner31]

Originally Posted by VFRhugh

I had a cracked head that allowed water into the oil enough to emulsify. After repair & reassembly I wondered how the trays looked. I did not want to remove the pan because I just got it leak free. Removing the oil filler tube allowed access to #1 & #2 cylinder trays. I vacuumed the emulsified oil out through the opening. What ever water remained quickly evaporated. My oil is clear. No sign of water after a month of nearly daily use.
Hugh

I had a cracked head once...it still hurts if I wear my hat to tight.

Seriously though...I'm following this post 'cause I'm curious as hell...water...no water,,,damn, the suspense is kill'n me

[CWilson]

Originally Posted by burner31

i had a cracked head once...it still hurts if i wear my hat to tight.

Seriously though...i'm following this post 'cause i'm curious as hell...water...no water,,,damn, the suspense is kill'n me

+1!

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

James, no, you want the engine to over run the drive, which means the engine turns in the normal direction, but turns faster than the starter. This will happen when you push the car forward in high gear (high gear for the best mechanical advantage).

When the engine starts on each normal start, the same thing happens. The engine fires up and the speed of the ring gear teeth is faster than the starter pinion teeth, so it speeds up the pinion and winds it back out of engagement. Of course the drive will grind if the operator doesn't stop cranking the starter as soon as the engine fires up.

If that were true, you should be able to turn the engine with the hand crank to free the starter. I will guarantee you, if the starter is stuck, you will NOT be able to turn the engine in the normal direction, it has to turn backwards to release the Bendix. Being locked is not like when the engine starts normally. Just try to turn a motor the normal direction that has the starter locked. I have observed this problem on my start-up stand with the Bendix exposed and I can assure you I am correct.

[ron103140]

Well I tried the easy way first. Removed the plugs and found number 3 was full of water. Next I drained a lot of water and the oil from pan. Removed head and got all water out of the intake and pistons. This is a "c" head and I see some brazing thats been done close to the center bolt hole. My questions are, do I need to remove the pan and clean any water that may be in the baffle or just add oil and run a little and change the oil? Do I need to have the head cleaned and magnifluxed for possable leak? I ordered a new head gasket when I installed the head and wander if I got an incorrect one as I didn't let supplier know I had a "c" head. Again any help will be great. Ron

[Will N]

Don't half a$$ it- drop the pan, clean it good, pull the head, check for flatness/cracks, clean the cylinders.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Can you post picture of your C head?
I'd ditch a head that had brazing and has leaked into the engine, and I'd buy the 5.5 higher compression head.

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Can you post picture of your C head?
I'd ditch a head that had brazing and has leaked into the engine, and I'd buy the 5.5 higher compression head.

Great advice from Tom! Get rid of that head! Wayne

[Ron W]

I agree with Tom. Don't waste time with a faulty head. I'd get a new higher compression head. It will make you smile when you start it next time. Ron W

[P.S.]

Originally Posted by ron103140

Well I tried the easy way first. Removed the plugs and found number 3 was full of water. Next I drained a lot of water and the oil from pan. Removed head and got all water out of the intake and pistons. This is a "c" head and I see some brazing thats been done close to the center bolt hole. My questions are, do I need to remove the pan and clean any water that may be in the baffle or just add oil and run a little and change the oil? Do I need to have the head cleaned and magnifluxed for possable leak? I ordered a new head gasket when I installed the head and wander if I got an incorrect one as I didn't let supplier know I had a "c" head. Again any help will be great. Ron

Tbird and I were positive that was the case based on your diagnosis..

OK, here is what you should do next:

Yes, you have to drop the oil pan. You should also take the valve cover off the side of the block and clean that out.

Get rid of that head. Hang it on the wall as a trophy!

If you buy the 5.5 head from Snyder's, you will be very pleased. This will also require a new water pump since a C head uses 3 bolts instead of 4. The good news is, if you sell your C water pump on eBay, it will likely bring in enough money to cover your new A water pump plus a good portion of the cost of the A head.

The head gasket should be chosen based on the bore or overbore of your cilynders. Also, if your block has been decked to the point that the pistons stick up well over the top of the block at TDC, that is also a consideration.

The good news is, you are not the first Model A owner who has experienced this. Several of us here have been through it and are eager to help you get back on the road.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by Ron W

I agree with Tom. Don't waste time with a faulty head. I'd get a new higher compression head. It will make you smile when you start it next time. Ron W

and buy your gasket from "Best Gasket Co."....and you will be very very happy with the high comp, head!

[ron103140]

I pulled the plugs first to find number 3 cylinder full of water. Drained the water (a lot ) and oil from pan, removed the head ( a lot more water) to chech gasket and head. Gasket seemed ok but the (C) head had previously been repaired. Brazed nearly all the way across the center. Nice job but I feel it's where the problem is. I have decided to get a new 5.5 to 1 from Snyders along with a gasket. Thanks for all the help guys. Ron

[tbirdtbird]

wise move

[Henry's Lady's Man]

I'd never heard of hydrolock before... in other words, it never happened to me or anyone I knew. So I plead ignorance. Ain't the Ford Barn great?

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by ron103140

Well I tried the easy way first. Removed the plugs and found number 3 was full of water. Next I drained a lot of water and the oil from pan. Removed head and got all water out of the intake and pistons. This is a "c" head and I see some brazing thats been done close to the center bolt hole. My questions are, do I need to remove the pan and clean any water that may be in the baffle or just add oil and run a little and change the oil? Do I need to have the head cleaned and magnifluxed for possable leak? I ordered a new head gasket when I installed the head and wander if I got an incorrect one as I didn't let supplier know I had a "c" head. Again any help will be great. Ron

That's the reason I asked you to do that days ago.

Remove the pan and drain everything out. the little water that remains in the nooks and crannies will not be a problem. Now is the time to access the purchase of a new head and you have chosen wisely.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Henry's Lady's Man

I'd never heard of hydrolock before... in other words, it never happened to me or anyone I knew. So I plead ignorance. Ain't the Ford Barn great?

An engine can also hydro lock from to much fuel (carb flooding) but less prone to happen on an up draft manifold as most of the fuel will run out.