One (1) Lenghty Model A Title Experience

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi,

Apologies for the length of really the short version to maybe a very boring thread; however, I wrote it hoping this helps someone some day with obtaining a Model A title .... next to last resort in paragraph 20 below.

1. February 1958 gave former Model A owner $25.00 cash for a 1930 Coupe, & went to Clerk of Court's house to notarize title transfer, only to find out I was too young to legally own a car.
2. Returned home where my Uncle asked me to put it in his name & keep this car at my house as a gift where I kept it for 57 years until today. Official title back then came in mail with his name with no problems.
3. Immediately prior to my Uncle dying in 1985, he transferred the title to me and signed a Bill of Sale with both documents notarized by attorneys.
4. Later, in 1995 decided to restore car, went to local DMV who mailed paperwork to State DMV headquarters.
5. Supervisor sent me a notice asking for a VIN number whereby I called to tell her there was no VIN number. After her checking on her end, she called and told me to call for a deputy to inspect the car to look for a VIN or motor number.
6. Deputy came, could not find VIN number so he recorded the motor number which was different from the motor number on the title.
7. After her receiving same, the motor number was a lower number so she asked why. Tried explaining routine changing of overhauled motors, but somehow she found the lower number meant a 1929 motor and she then told me that I had to title the 1930 Coupe as a 1929 Coupe. Tried to explain it could be devalued, but she would not budge.
8. Next, I told her the same title number might be on the chassis; however, the body would have to be lifted to see it and if I lifted it, I may be able to see the original title number.
9. The following day, I received a letter telling me I could not just lift the body, so she enclosed an official "Permit to Dismantle" and told me I could lift the body with this "Permit to Dismantle."
10. Called to tell her I could see the number on the chassis; however, her next question was if this was not the original motor, and was a subsequent motor, I needed to get an official notarized Bill of Sale for the motor.
11. Tried to explain I had heard that the guy had died years ago whereby she explained there was no way was I going to get a title with no Bill of Sale for the 1929 motor.
12. At this point, I just gave up at the moment & concentrated on trying to possibly get my 4 kids through school & college without acquiring student loans ..... succeeded in not needing student loans, but no Model A title either.
13. In the meantime I just bought and totally mechanically restored a 1930 Town Sedan; however, in about 2012, I figured this lady had either died or retired, and got interested again in pursuing a title. Remembered three (3) greasy motors came with the $25.00 car plus lots of parts, so I removed grease and paint and found the "original" engine ...... luckily, former poor owner was a pack rat who had about 30 old cars around his house, about 30 TV's, refrigerators, etc.; and besides he was still living at age in lower 90's.
14. Went to his house down the road, where he gladly signed a Bill of Sale for this "original" engine. Had Bill of Sale notarized and presented about 2-1/2" thick color copies of original documents to local DMV who in turn mailed it to State Headquarters.
15. DMV says then said they are sending a state trooper to inspect and report; so trooper arrives, inspects, says no problem; however, when I call DMV, they tell me I have to assemble the car to obtain a title.
16. Asked DMV what about getting a Justice of the Peace Court Order whereby they report if done, it is out of their hands and they have to give me a title.
17. Sent everything to Justice of the Peace ... after calling every 2 weeks, I received a court order after waiting 2 years. I then hurried down to his recommended local DMV who calls the State ...... sorry, with a "Permit to Dismantle", your car can never be put back on the highway and you can only sell it in parts.
18. Back to Justice of the Peace who rewrites Court order to include "Permit to Dismantle" was issued in error by the State.
19. Back to 2 local different DMVs who call State DMV who says no title can be granted after issuance of a "Permit to Dismantle", however, last local DMV, calls the Justice of the Peace, and State DMV, and asked me to call State DMV.
20. I called DMV very calmly and asked if there was one Court System below the Federal Supreme Court where I could get a Judge's Court Order that DMV would be forced to give me a title no matter what. Her response was a higher District Court Judge. Called a District Court Judge, explained briefly, where he said he would do all in his power to help.
21 Stayed up all night to gather documents and typed a 4 page letter and hand delivered all to the judge the following morning.
22. Couple of days later, drove to State DMV to meet same DMV lady, with my letter to the District Judge and copies of all documents. Lady read everything, and asked me to immediately cancel the District Court Order, to fill out a form, mail it in, and a title will be forthcoming immediately.
23. Both Court Orders were offered for free.
24. Have at least 20 old friends who already asked for a ride last night at our local bar where we play music on Thursday nights.
25. Not my only hobby, but, hope to again be calling Bratton's, Snyder's, and Bert's soon.
26. "Gone with the Wind" may also be illegal soon, but frankly my dear, I just don't give a damn.

[SeaSlugs]

dang! alotta hoops to jump thru!

Luckily mine came back partially OK except the first go around the title came back as a 29 ford grand cherokee...

[H. L. Chauvin]

On the bright side, my "untitled" Briggs 1930 Town Sedan with "registration" only in New York, & bought in Texas, took less than 20 minutes to process a title at a local DMV ..... no questions, no hassle ....... she thought the original Briggs body number on the original Briggs stamped body tag on the on the firewall was actually a VIN number ........ lady even asked for a ride in it.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

On the bright side, my "untitled" Briggs 1930 Town Sedan with "registration" only in New York, & bought in Texas, took less than 20 minutes to process a title at a local DMV ..... no questions, no hassle ....... she thought the original Briggs body number on the original Briggs stamped body tag on the on the firewall was actually a VIN number ........ lady even asked for a ride in it.

Sometime in the past someone stamped the "vin' on the same tag, Briggs body tag, on my car. It as this number that was inspected by the state police when the car was brought into the state.

[37Benny]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

Hi,

Apologies for the length of really the short version to maybe a very boring thread; however, I wrote it hoping this helps someone some day with obtaining a Model A title .... next to last resort in paragraph 20 below.

1. February 1958 gave former Model A owner $25.00 cash for a 1930 Coupe, & went to Clerk of Court's house to notarize title transfer, only to find out I was too young to legally own a car.
2. Returned home where my Uncle asked me to put it in his name & keep this car at my house as a gift where I kept it for 57 years until today. Official title back then came in mail with his name with no problems.
3. Immediately prior to my Uncle dying in 1985, he transferred the title to me and signed a Bill of Sale with both documents notarized by attorneys.
4. Later, in 1995 decided to restore car, went to local DMV who mailed paperwork to State DMV headquarters.
5. Supervisor sent me a notice asking for a VIN number whereby I called to tell her there was no VIN number. After her checking on her end, she called and told me to call for a deputy to inspect the car to look for a VIN or motor number.
6. Deputy came, could not find VIN number so he recorded the motor number which was different from the motor number on the title.
7. After her receiving same, the motor number was a lower number so she asked why. Tried explaining routine changing of overhauled motors, but somehow she found the lower number meant a 1929 motor and she then told me that I had to title the 1930 Coupe as a 1929 Coupe. Tried to explain it could be devalued, but she would not budge.
8. Next, I told her the same title number might be on the chassis; however, the body would have to be lifted to see it and if I lifted it, I may be able to see the original title number.
9. The following day, I received a letter telling me I could not just lift the body, so she enclosed an official "Permit to Dismantle" and told me I could lift the body with this "Permit to Dismantle."
10. Called to tell her I could see the number on the chassis; however, her next question was if this was not the original motor, and was a subsequent motor, I needed to get an official notarized Bill of Sale for the motor.
11. Tried to explain I had heard that the guy had died years ago whereby she explained there was no way was I going to get a title with no Bill of Sale for the 1929 motor.
12. At this point, I just gave up at the moment & concentrated on trying to possibly get my 4 kids through school & college without acquiring student loans ..... succeeded in not needing student loans, but no Model A title either.
13. In the meantime I just bought and totally mechanically restored a 1930 Town Sedan; however, in about 2012, I figured this lady had either died or retired, and got interested again in pursuing a title. Remembered three (3) greasy motors came with the $25.00 car plus lots of parts, so I removed grease and paint and found the "original" engine ...... luckily, former poor owner was a pack rat who had about 30 old cars around his house, about 30 TV's, refrigerators, etc.; and besides he was still living at age in lower 90's.
14. Went to his house down the road, where he gladly signed a Bill of Sale for this "original" engine. Had Bill of Sale notarized and presented about 2-1/2" thick color copies of original documents to local DMV who in turn mailed it to State Headquarters.
15. DMV says then said they are sending a state trooper to inspect and report; so trooper arrives, inspects, says no problem; however, when I call DMV, they tell me I have to assemble the car to obtain a title.
16. Asked DMV what about getting a Justice of the Peace Court Order whereby they report if done, it is out of their hands and they have to give me a title.
17. Sent everything to Justice of the Peace ... after calling every 2 weeks, I received a court order after waiting 2 years. I then hurried down to his recommended local DMV who calls the State ...... sorry, with a "Permit to Dismantle", your car can never be put back on the highway and you can only sell it in parts.
18. Back to Justice of the Peace who rewrites Court order to include "Permit to Dismantle" was issued in error by the State.
19. Back to 2 local different DMVs who call State DMV who says no title can be granted after issuance of a "Permit to Dismantle", however, last local DMV, calls the Justice of the Peace, and State DMV, and asked me to call State DMV.
20. I called DMV very calmly and asked if there was one Court System below the Federal Supreme Court where I could get a Judge's Court Order that DMV would be forced to give me a title no matter what. Her response was a higher District Court Judge. Called a District Court Judge, explained briefly, where he said he would do all in his power to help.
21 Stayed up all night to gather documents and typed a 4 page letter and hand delivered all to the judge the following morning.
22. Couple of days later, drove to State DMV to meet same DMV lady, with my letter to the District Judge and copies of all documents. Lady read everything, and asked me to immediately cancel the District Court Order, to fill out a form, mail it in, and a title will be forthcoming immediately.
23. Both Court Orders were offered for free.
24. Have at least 20 old friends who already asked for a ride last night at our local bar where we play music on Thursday nights.
25. Not my only hobby, but, hope to again be calling Bratton's, Snyder's, and Bert's soon.
26. "Gone with the Wind" may also be illegal soon, but frankly my dear, I just don't give a damn.

Question on #4....if by then you already owned the car, so you wanted to restore it..why did you even need to get the DMV involved in the first place? Benny

[H. L. Chauvin]

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Hi Benny,

At #4, he signed the Bill of Sale and signed the back of his 1958 title as is required for transfer of same; both documents were duly notarized by attorneys; but at this time, because of being busy with more important matters and going out of the U.S. often, I did not mail either to DMV at this time to receive a DMV title in my name.

[37Benny]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

Hi Benny,

At #4, he signed the Bill of Sale and signed the back of his 1958 title as is required for transfer of same; both documents were duly notarized by attorneys; but at this time, because of being busy with more important matters and going out of the U.S. often, I did not mail either to DMV at this time to receive a DMV title in my name.

oh I see Benny

[C26Pinelake]

Talk about perseverance ! You fought the law and you won ! Congratulations my friend ! Wayne

[mhsprecher]

I get a headache just reading that. Congrats, though! Amazing the same DMV lady was still there.

[5851a]

I wonder if the DMV's ever know how many blood pressure prescriptions they are responsible for!

[eagle]

What I find as truly amazing, it seems in some ways it was EASIER to send your kids to college than to register a lowly little Model A !!!!! The system is REALLY screwed up. Who votes to give the gov't more power over us......not me.

[holdover]

And the above is why I cringe every time I go to the DMV with a new project! I believe they all train at the same place......

[ricklove]

Maybe if the DMV folks were in charge of Immigration ..........

[denis4x4]

In the late eighties, I bought A running gear from a dealer/restorer in southern California to build a speedster. The seller kept the pink slip and the body. In as much as the pink had the chassis number, the seller stamped a number on the frame that I used to apply for a Colorado bonded title. The same seller rebuilt the engine and returned it to me with the block numbers ground off! After several phone calls, pictures and letters to the DMV, the seller got a hefty fine and had to start over in the process of registering a hot rod with a custom frame. He is no longer in business.

[Keith True]

I think I'll stay right here in N.H. Scribble a bill of sale on a piece of paper,and if you can produce an old registration take those two things and register it.If no old registration is available,you need to get form TDMV19 filled out,a verification of VIN.Dealer,inspection station,police,notary,JP,whoever is handy and has some kind of title.No titles here for old cars.They were not issued until 1964 on new cars.Insurance is not required here so you don't have to get all that first just to register.We can now title antiques by request,is costs $25.plus whatever the town clerk gets($2.50.here)If I want to sell any antiques I spend the money and title them.It just makes it easier for out-of-state buyers to deal with it.I have to say that our DMV here is excellent. If you get a hard time it is because you deserve it.If you don't have all your ducks in a row they will just show you what you need,and they make sure it all gets shown to you.You will only make one trip back.

[marc hildebrant]

When I first registered my Model A in Colorado, the lady behind the counter went outside to see my car. I opened the hood over the engine number and after she checked that the number matched the old title, I was set to go and got a new title.

All done with a smile and nice words.

Marc

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by holdover

And the above is why I cringe every time I go to the DMV with a new project! I believe they all train at the same place......

They are required to take a mean test to get the job. If they are not mean enough they do not get the job.

[ronn]

"They are required to take a mean test to get the job. If they are not mean enough they do not get the job."

I am pretty certain that most dmv employees got beat up in high school and enjoy power.......................

[Benson]

Just because you have had a title and registration for 45 years does not mean that you are safe from the DMV.

I received a note from insurance company that I could not insure my car because the VIN number that they had on file did not agree with the registration that the state recently sent to them (new law that year)!

I had a title and owned the car since 1962! Car had never been sold or title transfed!

I got out the latest registration. Sure enough the number that they had started out as IE6xxxxxx. not the number on the title and not the engine number. IE6 was the start of the engine number for my 1976 Yamaha XT500 but the number part was not even close.

Went round and round with them for months on this.

I needed a builder's title.

I had to pay for a bond.

I had to pull the body so they could see frame number.

The Model B engine in the car had no engine number...

It did not matter that I showed them the engine in the garage with the correct number as it appeared on the title.

Luckily I had a stack of registrations going back 30 years.

About 25 years ago they had changed the engine number out of the blue! So I had a stack with correct number and 25 with the wrong number!

I showed the stack to DMV that THEY had changed the number. "does not matter you still have to post a bond, pull the body and pay for the cops to inspect ".

And several other hoops to jump through... SOUP NAZI's !

The whole thing was my fault and they were not going to admit that they screwed up.

One day I mentioned this to Paul Garrigan AKA Rumble Seat from FB at coffee.

Paul got on his cell phone and called the State Director of the DMV. The whole thing was cleared up in a week!

So look closely and read any documents that the DMV sends you!!

This whole thing reminds me of Catch 22 or Arlo Guthrie's, Alice's Restaurant.

"25 glossy color photographs with circles and arrows ... Documenting the "implements of destruction" ...

"You can get anything you want at your local DMV" and some things that you do not want!

[bobpo1]

As they say, "persistence, not patience, pays off". Way to go and Congratulations. Now go out and enjoy a slice of Americana.

Happy Fourth of July...............

[wrndln]

H. L.
Maybe you stated it and I didn't see it, but what town & state did all this happen? I hope it wasn't Minnesota where I live.
Rusty Nelson

[wallster]

...and they all get paid by you! I never understood why 99% of government run agencies assume everyone's trying to pull "a fast one" and there's never any room for discretion from someone with common sense to simply take care of your business. Good job with the tenacity to keep after your goal.

Wally

[H. L. Chauvin]

In response to above reply #9, the original lady from 20 years ago had either retired or died because even though I had discouraging letters from her from 20 years ago, nobody in DMV later remembered her.

The different lady that gave me the title apologized for years of inconvenience and told me she had never seen original titles and original license plate registrations that were over 50 years old.

After reading my 4 page letter that I wrote to the District Judge referring to about 20 accompanying notarized documents, she went on line and pulled up the last title transfer number from 57 years ago ....... the original name and motor/title number on her monitor matched the name and original motor/title number on my paperwork.

With all due respect, this one DMV lady was really wonderful and compassionate. She even later called me to make sure I received the title in the mail. I'm planning on bringing her a cake or box of candy or something ...... just saying thanks is not enough.

She was an experienced agent working in DMV's "Special Permits Department", where they review out of the ordinary titles.

Just passing this DMV internal structure information on just in case other State's may have a "Special Permits Department" where they review titles for homemade trailers and/or vehicles with no VIN numbers such as vintage vehicles.

FWIW: For future difficult Model A titles, it can never hurt if one would call and continue to climb the corporate ladder to ask higher up if one's particular State DMV has a "Special" Department, Section, or person who can review more out-of-the- ordinary titles with no VIN numbers.

[JEC]

I have a BSA Goldstar that the CHP officer wouldnt verify because I had started taking it appart to restore.
Still appart 20 years later

[Synchro909]

I have been puzzled by your title system since I first heard you guys had them for cars. Strange! From what I read here, maybe our politicians aren't so bad after all. We don't have titles for cars. To register a car after say, a restoration where it has been off the road for years, we get a Certificate of Roadworthiness from a licensed vehicle inspector who checks such things as brakes, lights, oil leaks etc. - just safety stuff. With that, we take it along to a registration office where the engine and chassis numbers are inspected and if they don't appear on the records as stolen, all we have to do is pay our money. By the way, registration here includes compulsory third party insurance. That is, other drivers and road users are insured but not property, That is a separate thing. Simple!

[Mitch//pa]

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Originally Posted by Synchro909

I have been puzzled by your title system since I first heard you guys had them for cars. Strange! From what I read here, maybe our politicians aren't so bad after all. We don't have titles for cars. To register a car after say, a restoration where it has been off the road for years, we get a Certificate of Roadworthiness from a licensed vehicle inspector who checks such things as brakes, lights, oil leaks etc. - just safety stuff. With that, we take it along to a registration office where the engine and chassis numbers are inspected and if they don't appear on the records as stolen, all we have to do is pay our money. By the way, registration here includes compulsory third party insurance. That is, other drivers and road users are insured but not property, That is a separate thing. Simple!

I remember discussing this with you a while back... We can definetly learn some things from your system, but unfortunately that will never happen

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

I remember discussing this with you a while back... We can definetly learn some things from your system, but unfortunately that will never happen

Yup, I remember that discussion but thought I would restate it for others if they are interested. It's about here a post like this could become political so let's leave it there!

[dumb person]

Originally Posted by eagle

What I find as truly amazing, it seems in some ways it was EASIER to send your kids to college than to register a lowly little Model A !!!!! The system is REALLY screwed up. Who votes to give the gov't more power over us......not me.

Hmm maybe i should go to the USA for a college.

[PepeLoco]

H. L. Chauvin
"With all due respect, this one DMV lady was really wonderful and compassionate. She even later called me to make sure I received the title in the mail. I'm planning on bringing her a cake or box of candy or something ...... just saying thanks is not enough."


I am a government employee here at the City of Austin. We are not permitted to receive any kind of gift regardless of the situation. Especially food, lunch, or even office supplies!
However, what she really may appreciate is a letter that you write to her boss thanking her for her professional and compassionate work.
Pepe

[Tim Armstrong]

What is really sad is that our whole government is just like that, from the president on down.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Pepe,

A. I already checked this item with one local Official Non-Government Auto Title Company that DMV can receive a gift if given to the entire "Special Title's Section", in lieu of giving it to one individual. She explained her particular experience is ........ not to hold my breath waiting for a mailed box of chocolates to come back from DMV by return mail.

B. As far as writing a letter, I fully agree ..... both to her supervisor and also to our new Governor this fall.

C. Writing and reaching out with emails always helps. I wrote many whip-ass emails last year to get rid of our past long time warped brain Senator who voted "for" Gun Control ...... I think getting involved politically by sending emails is most important.

D. We also have many wonderful Government employees that we should try to let them know ...... and allow their superiors to know that they are greatly appreciated, and as you kindly suggested ...... with a commendation letter.

E. On the same note, with all of the title problems we often hear about with Model A titles:

1. Has anybody ever considered for our two (2) National Model A Organizations, coupled with all of our local Model A State Organizations to draft a letter to all Fifty (50) State DMV Headquarters explaining that:

a. Model A's were registered or titled over 80 years ago with motor numbers; and,

b. The sometimes stamped matching chassis number have rusted in some cases beyond recognition; and,

c. Because with dirt roads, no air filters, no oil filters, etc., motors were exchanged every 8,000 miles or so back then; hence a different motor number today; and,

d. It is highly possible that a Model A will have had at least ten (10) motor exchanges with different motor numbers by 2015 as opposed to what one experiences today where original motors can last over 300,000 miles in 2015 with added filters.

e. Last but not least, to insure that Senators and Representatives become alert on this Model A title issue, just enclose a list of National and local Model A members with this letter .......... "numbers" of citizen members of "any" organization can always elevate the political "Pucker Factor".

Most sincere thanks for your taking the time to kindly reply ...... agree ..... we all can do great things ....... "together" ...... and never give up.