How can a shop do this twice in a row??

[gilitos]

Had this engine rebuilt (including new babbitt) in the mid '80's. Installed the engine in my Tudor several years later, ran it a few thousand miles (rather gently) and then dropped the pan to find busted up main bearings. Too much time had passed for warranty, so I bit the bullet and had the bearings re-poured by the same local shop (that specializes in early Fords). After a few thousand miles, lots more leaking. Dropped the pan and found this.
So am I missing something? Is this me, or is there something amiss with the way this high volume shop is pouring babbitt?

One more question: anybody seen a seal like this before? I know I didn't ask for it! I want my slinger back!

Finally, who can recommend a top-notch babbitt shop in the Cincinnati area?

[Vic in E-TN]

I have had good experience with Ron Miller. He is about 30 miles west of town.
Vic

[Earle]

I have to recommend Schwalm's Babbitted Bearings in Strasburg, PA.Ora Landis and his late Mentor, Bud Schwalm, are practically legendary in the northeast Model A community. Everything mechanical and electrical about the 'A' is their specialty and has ben for decades.

This isn't exactly in the Cincinnati area but people ship motors to Ora from around the country to be perfectly rebuilt. He's expert at babbit work and also does inserts. He rebuilt the motor, tranny and rear in my 31 roadster a few thousand miles ago. Fantastic work, good, responsive customer service/relations and he stands solidly behind all his work.

Just a thought for an excellent shop to get babbit, etc. work done.

'Couldn't hurt to just ring Ora up and chat. My only warning is that his backlog of work and high demand usually means weeks or even months to get on his "list".

Ora's number is: 717-687-6976

Address: Schwalm's Babbitted Bearings

[Earle]

Continuing:

Schwalm's Babbitted Bearings
332 Georgetown Road
Strasburg, PA 17579


'Best of luck, what ever you decide and wherever you end up.

Earle

[Glenn C.]

I too might be missing something here, but it also looks like you are missing part of your main bearing shim on the one side of the cap.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Look to fellow Fordbarner James Rogers at DREAMWERKS Engines. He has a great reputation and builds them one-on-one himself.

.

[Purdy Swoft]

Its hard for me to see clearly in the picture but it doesn't look like it has the relief for the oil to collect in the sides of the cap at the ends of the oil groove. There should be a relief that extends nearly all the way to the ends of the cap on each side but not all the way. if the relief extends all the way it will allow the oil to exit the ends of the caps instead of flowing through the oil groove. I really don't see a relief and this is a sign of the builder not knowing what he is doing.

[LukeDahlinger]

Pour & bore guys are all over, if you figure you need new mains you shouldn't have any trouble finding one close by to you!

[cliffy]

Mike bogart troy Ohio does a really good job

[biggeorge]

Has this happen to the same journal and what does the crank look like?

[gilitos]

Journals appear lovely; the crank was ground by the same shop that poured & line bored the bearings twice. Darn. This represents a non-trivial amount of money, three times in maybe 10,000 miles! It hurts!

[LukeDahlinger]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

But the man has been through this already, twice. He's asking for someone who knows how to do the job the correct way.

James Rogers and Ora Landis' names come up quite often for proper babbitt work, they and Kohnecke (sp?) so I'd make an effort to go to these guys.

Either that or go to Rich at Skokie for inserts and be done with it. We will see more and more insert engines as time goes by.

Quite true. Based on my personal experience with customer cars, I'd go with either Schwalm's or Antique Engine in Skokie, IL. They both have been in business for a good many years and have a good reputation.

Kohnke Babbitt has posted lots of great information in the past on babbitting and the like, I certainly enjoy reading his posts!

[Tom Wesenberg]

What's in the groove next to the rear thrust face of the babbit?

[Terry, NJ]

Ora Landis at Schwalms is doing my engine. Rather than fitutz around with babbit, I'm putting inserts in. Longer life! Less finicky. less potential for trouble! Ora showed me a ford "N" ( as in pre "T", N,R,& S,) he was doing and there are a bunch of FH V8s in various stages of completion. He told me that the backlog was at least three months.
Terry

[Kurt in NJ]

Pour and Bore is what gives babbitt the bad name, the preparation before the pour, having proper temperature& tinning of the cap, mandrel, and babbitt before the pour, the peining of the babbitt in the iron after the pour, before the bore is what makes for long lasting babbitt.

I too have had professionally, highly reccomended shop babbitt fail in less than 4000 miles, I chose to learn and do it myself, the restoration of my A has taught me that I can screw it up 3 times for what I would pay someone else to screw it up--

In the 80s when I poured mine there was no internet like now to share information, babbitting was considered a black art, a closed society, I only had a Restorer article, and the KRW article, and a few vague answers asked of rebuilders at Hershey, i found that the reason that the KRW way didn't include caps was that they are much harder to get correct than the block, and that the "ford" babbitt is much harder to pour than lead babbitt, that I rejected 75% of the caps I poured --just having 1 pot and a plumbers stove was not enough to do caps consistantly, too hard to get proper temps on all the componets at the same time.

Then came peining, I realized that the babbitt shrinks away from the block, that if it isn't stretched back to a tight fit there would be a rapid failure because of the movement (that engine that the bearings got loose quick wasn't peined, the crank had to do it running --a factor in most early failures), that the KRW peining tools needed to be hit so hard to move the babbitt that I thought I would break the block ---when it was properly peined and cut out the backside was obviously tight to the block, the machining marks in the block were also perfectly transferred to the babbitt, the marks on the back of the babbitt before peining were "blurrey" showing incomplete contact --that proved to me the importance of proper peining ---the backside of a properly peined bearing looked the same as intact original babbitt that was cut out, the premature failed babbitt looked mostly like the blurred unpeined babbit, sometimes the iron bore was even polished from the movement of the babbitt in the bore before failure.

Educate yourself about babbitt, then ask questions of rebuilders, then decide.

I am still "testing" my babbitt job, it has been 25 years, more than 5 times the miles the job I paid for lasted, but I don't think I did it good enough to go 60-80000 miles that I feel a proper babbitt job should.

Inserts have become popular because they seem to be the cure for babbitt ---anyone can change an insert --except for a couple of minor problems, most times when there is a complete failure of an insert the crankshaft is also damaged --if it spins in the bore it is also damaged (usually when you can hear the knock with an insert it has also spun) ---what do you do then???, with Babbitt usually only the babbitt is damaged and it takes a while, knocking till you get home ---the other problem is ---what inserts do I get???,many different inserts have been used --mostly from engines that are long obsolete now (except for Riches new inserts)--in 20 years will you be able to replace them?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Kurt, you offer a lot of good advice above but I am going to offer a couple of perspectives regarding inserts that don't necessarily apply to your mindset. To start with, the trend of going to counter-weighted crankshafts is quite heavy these days as they really improve longetivity and reduce power-robbing vibrations. The downside to this mod is to get the rear main cap off to adjust babbitt bearings, you must either remove the transmission & flywheel housing, or remove the engine & flywheel housing, --or cut the flywheel housing. Now here is where the rub is, ....you are actually an exception in that a majority of Model A owners cannot do major engine work (adjusting babbitt bearings is "major") and as such they must hire this task done. Since most engine builders who 'Pour & Bore' do not burnish the babbitt, my experience has proved the adjustment must be taken up several times where this is not an issue with inserts. Therefore using inserts is more of a prudent method for a person such as the typical Model A owner.

The 2nd thing that most people use as an excuse is in the beginning of insert conversions, there was a little bit of a learning curve but in the last decade or two, there has been very little failures from "rolling" a main bearing. Where the majority of the failures have come from was from connecting rods coming apart after being machined too thin. This problem has virtually been non-existant with Rich's new rods. As far as bearing availability, anything is possible with regard to obsolescence of retrofitted inserts shells but I'm sure something can be found to replace the retrofitted inserts at that time if need be. Many tend to be a "glass is half full" kind of person and will find a solution.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ

Pour and Bore is what gives babbitt the bad name, the preparation before the pour, having proper temperature& tinning of the cap, mandrel, and babbitt before the pour, the peining of the babbitt in the iron after the pour, before the bore is what makes for long lasting babbitt.

I too have had professionally, highly reccomended shop babbitt fail in less than 4000 miles, I chose to learn and do it myself, the restoration of my A has taught me that I can screw it up 3 times for what I would pay someone else to screw it up--

In the 80s when I poured mine there was no internet like now to share information, babbitting was considered a black art, a closed society, I only had a Restorer article, and the KRW article, and a few vague answers asked of rebuilders at Hershey, i found that the reason that the KRW way didn't include caps was that they are much harder to get correct than the block, and that the "ford" babbitt is much harder to pour than lead babbitt, that I rejected 75% of the caps I poured --just having 1 pot and a plumbers stove was not enough to do caps consistantly, too hard to get proper temps on all the componets at the same time.

Then came peining, I realized that the babbitt shrinks away from the block, that if it isn't stretched back to a tight fit there would be a rapid failure because of the movement (that engine that the bearings got loose quick wasn't peined, the crank had to do it running --a factor in most early failures), that the KRW peining tools needed to be hit so hard to move the babbitt that I thought I would break the block ---when it was properly peined and cut out the backside was obviously tight to the block, the machining marks in the block were also perfectly transferred to the babbitt, the marks on the back of the babbitt before peining were "blurrey" showing incomplete contact --that proved to me the importance of proper peining ---the backside of a properly peined bearing looked the same as intact original babbitt that was cut out, the premature failed babbitt looked mostly like the blurred unpeined babbit, sometimes the iron bore was even polished from the movement of the babbitt in the bore before failure.

Educate yourself about babbitt, then ask questions of rebuilders, then decide.

I am still "testing" my babbitt job, it has been 25 years, more than 5 times the miles the job I paid for lasted, but I don't think I did it good enough to go 60-80000 miles that I feel a proper babbitt job should.

Inserts have become popular because they seem to be the cure for babbitt ---anyone can change an insert --except for a couple of minor problems, most times when there is a complete failure of an insert the crankshaft is also damaged --if it spins in the bore it is also damaged (usually when you can hear the knock with an insert it has also spun) ---what do you do then???, with Babbitt usually only the babbitt is damaged and it takes a while, knocking till you get home ---the other problem is ---what inserts do I get???,many different inserts have been used --mostly from engines that are long obsolete now (except for Riches new inserts)--in 20 years will you be able to replace them?

Very well said Kurt, you covered it all. Herm

[leadpot]

See a lot of talk about rebuilders etc, but can't recall seeing any experiences or opinions about Mac's or Sniders or other parts suppliers. They advertise complete engine rebuilds on your old block or ones they have in stock. They offer babbit or insert engines. Just curious with anyones experience with these engines? Know my day will probably come some day to need a rebuild.