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Old 12-10-2021, 08:03 AM   #1
AnthonyG
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Default Solenoid disengages gear prematurely

Recently while trying to resolve some carb. issues & starting / stopping a lot, I started noticing the starter solenoid disengaging the gear prematurely. As soon as the engine begins to fire it disengages while engine try’s to starts?
Checked all mounting bolts including starter body to engine support & all are tight. Starter & engine has maybe 2500 miles.
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Old 12-10-2021, 08:33 AM   #2
fordyford
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Default Re: Solenoid disengages gear prematurely

What engine/ starter? Sounds like a bad starter drive.
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Old 12-10-2021, 08:51 AM   #3
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Default Re: Solenoid disengages gear prematurely

Engine’s an 8BA, starter stock type new with rebuilt engine 2500 miles ago. Reputable builder ( United Specialists Wichita Ka.)
Seems to me I remember a thread about tweaking / adjusting the starter to engine support bracket for an issue like this but can’t find it now.
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Old 12-10-2021, 01:11 PM   #4
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Default Re: Solenoid disengages gear prematurely

Usually that is a sign of a weak bendix spring. Have you pulled the starer and taken a look at it in detail? Also, is this a 6V starter running at 6V . . . or a 6V starter running at 12V?
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Old 12-11-2021, 02:00 AM   #5
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Default Re: Solenoid disengages gear prematurely

Starter Drive.
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Old 12-11-2021, 07:35 PM   #6
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Default Re: Solenoid disengages gear prematurely

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6V running on 12V
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Old 12-11-2021, 08:26 PM   #7
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Default Re: Solenoid disengages gear prematurely

Well there is your answer, a 6volt starter operating on 12 volts which is not a good idea at all. Now some experts will state that they have run their 6 volt starter on 12 volts for over 30 years without any problems but I say they have been lucky. That starter drive including the spring and pinion (gear) takes a real hammering on engaging the ring gear on the flywheel, so much so that the springs break and the ring gear can be dislodged from its correct mounting position on the flywheel. I dont want to hear all your stories about it is OK to run them on 12 volts because they were never designed to run on 12 volts at higher speed without modifying the field coils and armature . So fit a 12 volt starter on your engine and check that your ring gear is not out of position on the fly wheel. Regards, Kevin.
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Old 12-12-2021, 01:50 AM   #8
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Default Re: Solenoid disengages gear prematurely

12 volts is not going to to disengage the starter drive while cranking. I agree it is not a good idea and it is hard on the starter drive and ring gear. His problem was the gear kicking out early while cranking.
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Old 12-12-2021, 09:52 AM   #9
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Default Re: Solenoid disengages gear prematurely

As has been covered before, one can purchase a later Ford 12V starter and use it to convert an earlier 6V starter over to 12V. You use the armature out of the 6V starter and the front plate and the case, field coils, brushes and rear plate of the later starter. In order for this to work, you MUST have the flathead 6V starter with the THIN front bearing plate.

2021-12-12_9-52-51.jpg

I just did this for a friend (for his 302 CI Flathead) - worked great. It only took me about an hour to do the complete conversion.

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Old 12-13-2021, 07:56 AM   #10
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Default Re: Solenoid disengages gear prematurely

Anybody use the after market newer design lighter weight hi-torque starter? https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speed...ns-,36967.html
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Old 12-13-2021, 08:16 AM   #11
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Default Re: Solenoid disengages gear prematurely

I know folks use the hi-torque modern starters, but to me they just don't sound right. Now I know that is silly - but I like the sound of the original starter. Probably nothing wrong with that route - just haven't ran one on a flathead before. Have you pulled the current starter and looked at the bendix, spring, etc?
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Old 12-13-2021, 10:48 AM   #12
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Default Re: Solenoid disengages gear prematurely

The starter engages the bendix as soon as it starts to turn. The centrifugal force with the spiral teeth on the gear shaft pushes it into the ring gear. The solenoid only functions the starter motor. When the engine fires, it can kick the bendix back out prematurely. Now it is normal for the bendix to kick out when the engine fires but if the engine has a fuel delivery problem, a weak spark, or a vacuum leak that can't carry it though the start cycle after the bendix has already been disengaged then the starter will overrun the bendix and you have to wait till it stops turning before another start attempt. If everything is working well with the engine then it will complete the cycle with a lot more reliability.

On 12-volt, it just turns a lot faster. It can still disengage prematurely though.
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Old 12-13-2021, 02:18 PM   #13
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Default Re: Solenoid disengages gear prematurely

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Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
The starter engages the bendix as soon as it starts to turn. The centrifugal force with the spiral teeth on the gear shaft pushes it into the ring gear. The solenoid only functions the starter motor. When the engine fires, it can kick the bendix back out prematurely. Now it is normal for the bendix to kick out when the engine fires but if the engine has a fuel delivery problem, a weak spark, or a vacuum leak that can't carry it though the start cycle after the bendix has already been disengaged then the starter will overrun the bendix and you have to wait till it stops turning before another start attempt. If everything is working well with the engine then it will complete the cycle with a lot more reliability.

On 12-volt, it just turns a lot faster. It can still disengage prematurely though.
So what kicks the bendix out is the engine turning faster than the bendix gear, so on 12 volts the engine would have to turn a lot faster to kick the bendix out . The point I'm making is that 12 volts on a 6 volt starter will not cause the bendix to kick out any more than it would on 6 volts.
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Old 12-13-2021, 03:46 PM   #14
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Default Re: Solenoid disengages gear prematurely

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Anybody use the after market newer design lighter weight hi-torque starter? https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speed...ns-,36967.html
I use the newer design starters with great success. However I use Power Master brand. Some of what Speedway offers is off shore quality.

I also use the stock Ford flathead 6 volt starter feeding them with 12 volts been doing that for decades and many thousands of miles never had a failure doing that as well. I carry a spare Bendix just in case for the stock starter. Traveling cross country its best to have a few spare parts that in the middle of the night might be hard to find.
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Old 12-14-2021, 09:46 AM   #15
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Default Re: Solenoid disengages gear prematurely

It doesn't take much engine rpm to go faster than the starter will turn. Ford changed over to the modern style bendix to get away from the damper spring design. The old style lasted fairly well but most folks that have been around old fords for a while have had the spring or one of the two bolts fail at one time or another.
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Old 12-18-2021, 08:46 AM   #16
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Default Re: Solenoid disengages gear prematurely

Bored&Stroked, I had engine out for ring / piston issues last year. I had the starter out checked & reinstalled when reassembling the engine. It was fine @ the time & has fewer than 2500-3000 miles since originally got it. While I enjoy working on cars for the most the stock starter in the 8BA & assume all ford V8 flatheads is so heavy & getting it back on the engine so awkward even on an engine stand! Between the weight & with the thru bolts letting it fall apart easily w/o extreme care or trick on install does make removing to find it’s fine as it was 6 months & very few miles ago not a pleasant thought, Lol! Since my last reply I got the shaft springs that close the carb butterflies better & seems to start better w/o or minimal disengagement. So I’m thinking maybe as Rotowrench sad in post 12 it probably had to do with carb butterflies not sealing causing in effect a vacuum issue.

The thought had occurred during the issues to pull old style starter & replace with the modern lighter design! I still might buy one of the lighter smaller modern replacement starters. If more problems with old style starter. Can someone verify as I’m not real sure but heard the modern design is 1/3 the weight & don’t have the old assembly bolts that let the old starters fall apart on assy! Been designed out with starter being a fixed assy with standard mounts similar to modern ones?
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