caveat emptor

[DavidG]

While the practice of implying something "is" when it "isn't" when it comes to seller's descriptions of the item for sale isn't uniquely found on ebay, a very recent ebay example is just one more reminder that a few in this hobby (and in every other walk of life) are willing strangers to the truth.


The seller in this instance took a Brookville '32 roadster body and put it on an original chassis, added the tattered interior from an original roadster, did all the latest in patination, right down to worn pin striping. and added a number of original accessories, both Ford-released and aftermarket to create, what he or she obviously hoped would pass for a very well-preserved survivor.


What they did not do, however, was to spend a little time comparing a Brookville body to an original with the result that all of the Brookville telltales have been retained, right down to the misfit of the left side hood top panel at the left side belt molding and directly above and that is one of the least obvious differences.


Allegedly this car was awarded a Rouge Award at a western national meet of the Early Ford V8 Club. If factual, shame, shame on the judges who knew so little as to not have quickly seen that it is a fake.


The car was withdrawn from ebay with the notation that it was no longer available. To me that suggests that it was sold privately. If so, I most sincerely hope that the buyer was aware that he was spending serious money for a fraud and wanted it notwithstanding. But if unaware, they have my sympathies as eventually they will encounter someone who will know what the car "isn't".

[petehoovie]

Is this the car, David? > https://www.ebay.com/itm/17497272742...p2047675.l2557

and at > https://barnfinds.com/depression-era...ster-survivor/









1932 Ford V-8 DeLuxe Roadster -- All Steel
Early Ford V-8 Club "Preservation Award" Western Meet, 2013
1948 Flathead V-8 L-Block Engine with 1939 Ford Transmission
• Original Upholstery, Glass, Mechanical Brakes, Unrestored. • Script Glass dated 8-32, all around • Mint Original Running Boards • Rumble Step Pad and Bracket • Accessory Luggage Rack • Correct Original 18" Cloth Tire Cover • Lockingg Sidemount Hub Cap • Correct Sport Lights / Brackets • Original Windshield Frame/Wiper • Original Unplated Bumpers • Side Curtains and Top Boot • "Roosevelt Approved" • Correct Tools and Jack Included • Rare 1932 Olympics Rear License Plate Topper
https://barnfinds.com/depression-era...ster-survivor/

[DavidG]

Pete,


The very same.

[Tinker]

They did a good job making the body faux wear. It's almost too smooth to be weathered. Like the front drivers fender.

Must have taking some time putting the interior in.


Less it's an original body repainted to match the rest. It is certainly a fake paint job in my option.


It could be a car made of parts over yrs. Not a original survivor car. But I could be wrong...



.

[cas3]

I'd like to see the real survivor they took the seats and door panels from! How do you fake the tar flaking off inside the doors of old fords? and all correct hardware? Too bad someone probably got took

[Tinker]

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You take another rusted car with some interior chrome and put it on another car. (cas I'm probably missing your sarcasm intent) It's hard to say. But it's been repainted in my thought from the pictures or they wet sanded everything but the front driverside fender. Seeing it in person is a different thing.


Interesting the side after the driver is worn and the running boards are mint and the step out of the cab (rocker) is painted.


Like I said! I could be wrong!!! I don't think it is a survivor untouched as the ad says. Would need more information.

[deuce lover]

Thank you David for this thread.There was a blue "restored" '32 roadster advertised on the V8 Club Website awhile back out of Santa Barbara that looked great and priced right .I feel that it was also a Brookville body also .Seller stated it was a steel body is all.

[tomcarman]

I'm not by any stretch of the imagination knowledgeable on metal work however in looking at the pics that petehoovie (Thanks Pete!) posted even an imbecile like me could ascertain there is something very wrong with the description. I've never ever seen a car of any make that straight of that age or even much newer that isn't quite well worn. Warts and all.

[Charlie ny]

What the faux.......all that work for a fake. I can see close to 60 grand in it as it sits
Charlie ny

[rotorwrench]

Human nature is for some people to believe what they see with added influence from other people who may gain from that. What folks don't take in to account is that a car that was restored in the 60s, 70s, or even later depending on storage elements could "Look" like something that could be "survivor" material due to their impression of the condition that they see.

Folks that tend to question something they see when they have the experience and the knowledge to find authenticity can usually knock off an untruthful claim pretty quick but the average person out there really can't and won't do that.

Folks make fake pieces of art and other popular things all the time for monetary gain from the unsuspecting buyer. It's been going on since the dawn of the human species. The latin term for "Let the Buyer Beware" is a pretty old one.

[19Fordy]

I don't know anything about 32 Fords but, is it normal for the rear wheel not to be "centered" in the fender opening? That would make me wonder about authenticity.

[deuce lover]

Yes on a stock '32,Its a bit forward of center.

[earlyride]

I saw that car on ebay and noticed that it didn't have the hole on top of the doors for side curtains. I could be wrong but I thought all the original roadsters had those.

[19Fordy]

Originally Posted by deuce lover

Yes on a stock '32,Its a bit forward of center.

OK. Thanks.

[DavidG]

Here's the link to the ebay listing, which has more photos and they are revealing. https://www.ebay.com/itm/174972727428

Below are some photos of a real '32 roadster survivor. In the first one, note the four holes in the upper back panel for the rubber rear window rests, the placement of the stainless steel top prop rest, the vertical position of the outside door handle escutcheon, the socket on top of the door for the side curtain rod, and the position of the forward bottom tip of the top side panel. Compare those characteristics with the photos from the ebay listing that follow.

Of the last of these, the attachment location of the tip of the top panel is a major defining difference between the "is" and the "isn't". The top of the quarter panel was formed to create a pocket for the tip of the wood rear belt rail as shown in the illustration which is part of the original engineering drawing for the quarter panel. These do not exist in a Brookville body, nor does a tilted V-shaped depression below that pocket where the tip of the top is attached with a special finishing nail that goes through a hole in the sheet metal into the tip of the wood inside the pocket. The result is that the tip of the top ends up below the top edge of the quarter panel. Note on the ebay photo that the tip of the top is at the top of the quarter panel which signals that there is no pocket and no tilted V-shaped depression on that body.

Further below is another photo of that real survivor and in this photo the one other and likely the easiest to spot at a distance telltale is the original outward flare of the quarter panels above the moldings at the rear wheelhouses. In the adjacent photo from the ebay listing, that flare is absent.

[hotcoupe]

I am a novice when it comes to '32 Fords, but i saw that car a few years ago at the Grand National Roadster Show and it was very convincing (to a novice).
Tom

[DavidG]

I need assistance posting the first photo that I refer to above in #15, please. Sending it to myself via email did not work.

[deuce lover]

Originally Posted by DavidG

I need assistance posting the first photo that I refer to above in #15, please. Sending it to myself via email did not work.

Hope this works

[DavidG]

Sheldon,


Thanks, but it is neither of those and not one that I posted. I'll send it to you and maybe you will have better luck posting it.

[deuce lover]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Sheldon,


Thanks, but it is neither of those and not one that I posted. I'll send it to you and maybe you will have better luck posting it.

Done

[DavidG]

Sheldon,


That's the one; thanks!


Compare the photo of a true survivor in #18 with the first three in #15 and you will note four different things that are either missing or wrongly positioned on the Brookville body.

[sugarmaker]

Folks,
Sure seams like a lot of work to get to the end result? I somewhat understand the process. as in counterfeiting the folks are very good at what they do., but not as good as the could be doing real correct work!
David, Thanks for reminding us of these things that go on as we sleep. Lot of folks could be duped and spend a lot of money.
I am surprised if it won the awards mentioned??
Regards,
Chris

[deuce_roadster]

I had a car (1940) on the concourse at the Thousand Oaks meet and I remember seeing that car there I think for display, not judging. Had that distinctive Hawaiian stuff and the top over the rumble seat. My buddy and I both thought it was fake. I have judged 32,33 and 34s at least 5 times at V8 club National Meets with a well known expert David knew who passed away in 2014 before Thousand Oaks. Like David he would have come up with a list of reasons that particular car was bogus.

[ronn]

and the question begets...........

will anyone know the difference in say 25 yrs.?

[19Fordy]

Nope. When the masters pass on, they take their obscure knowledge, life's experience and intuition with them. Got to have valid provenance.

[petehoovie]

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Originally Posted by DavidG

I need assistance posting the first photo that I refer to above in #15, please. Sending it to myself via email did not work.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Compare the photo of a true survivor in #18 with the first three in #15 and you will note four different things that are either missing or wrongly positioned on the Brookville body.

#18


first three in #15

[DavidG]

Pete,


Thanks!

[Bored&Stroked]

To me this is a case of the buyer better know what they're looking at . . . or bring an expert.

I've seen a few of these types of builds - where they are trying to make a new body look old (and it never really works). They are always obvious if you know what you're looking at.

Also, the eBay wording is a bit telling . . . he says it has a "Steel Body" - he doesn't call it out as an original Ford body - just that it is steel. I've seen that little technique used a lot of times on eBay -- for 32 and 34 roadsters, 3 windows and 5 windows.

It is really hard to make something new, look truly vintage - and outside of all the stuff that was bolted onto it or installed in it, it doesn't look vintage (the body) to me in the least. The paint technique is also a total giveaway . . . original cars just don't age that way (never seen one yet!).

Would be interesting to see what he may have told others - in relation to the body.

I don't think most of us would be fooled for a second . . .

[DavidG]

But, down the road, as 19Fordy and ronn note, who will know the difference?

[rotorwrench]

There may be less folks than there are now but l'm sure there will be a few folks that care enough to find the truth.

[tubman]

Yep, Look at "Antiques Roadshow"; they have folks on there that can tell whether an eighteenth century desk was made in Massachusetts or Rhode Island.

Or can they? How can we check them out?

[VeryTangled]

I don't believe there is a National V-8 Club "Preservation" award. The 2013 Western Meet hosting club might have done something but it's not a National V-8 Club award. So it's a worthless 'credential.'

[38 coupe]

The Early Ford V8 Club does have a preservation award, the "Rouge" award for "club vehicles unrestored, original as manufactured".

A side note: there was no Western National Meet in 2013, that was the year of the Grand National in Lake Tahoe. The pictured award is from the 2014 meet. I know of no way of verifying if the award pictured in the sale pictures was given for the car being discussed.

[rockfla]

Originally Posted by DavidG

But, down the road, as 19Fordy and ronn note, who will know the difference?

HOPEFULLY, with post like this.....I will "try" ad carry the torch, David!! THE challenge for me is finding the next one after me!!!

[BoxCar Tom]

some more pics of the real deal 32 std roadster

Anyone want to see more pics of it insitu?

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by BoxCar Tom

some more pics of the real deal 32 std roadster

Anyone want to see more pics of it insitu?

Boy would I like to own that car!

[Andy]

Here are some pics I took of an original car a couple of weeks ago. I was amazed.

[blucar]

Many years ago I had a friend, now deceased, that was considered by many people to b e an expert on '32 Fords, he had two Vicky's one restored and one a flat head powered street rod.
My friend called me, wanted me to come bye, had something to show me.
When I got to my friends house he was beaming with joy, could not wait to show me what he had in his shop.
Sitting in the shop was a very nice 'barn find' 32 Ford Roadster. The car was obviously very old with faded worn paint, weathered tires, dull chrome, ragged leather upholstery etc.
The story on the car that the car had belonged to a young man during the late 1930's, it was his hot rod, hmmmmm? a full fendered hot rod in the late 1930's.

When WWII started in 1941 the original owner joined the Army, his father put the car away in the garage for safe keeping.
The young man did not return from the war, the family was so distrought over his death they kept the car. My friend had bought the '32 from an estate sale.
There were things about the car that did not ring true to me, an Indian blanket over the lower seat cushion, and most of all a '40 Ford column shift complete with the '40 steering wheel, a common conversion in the late '40's, but I would doubt it in 1941.
I could tell there was not much sense pointing out my concerns with the car, my friend was so happy with his good fortune, he was going to put the car up for sale as soon as he got it running. He was going to ask $75,k for the car.

[Tim Ayers]

I feel a lot this nonsense is due to the new wave of reality shows. Barn find now equates to gold mine and the race is on to make pots of gold out anything barn find related.

You certainly need to do your home work before purchasing a valuable "barn find" or swallow your pride and get an expert if you aren't 100% sure as to what you are looking at is legit or not.

[19Fordy]

Tim is correct as we now live in a world of massive deception at all levels.
Got to be careful.

[rockfla]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Tim is correct as we now live in a world of massive deception at all levels.
Got to be careful.

When I was out at the 75th Deuce Day celebration in So Cal. The word of the big show day was "More 32 Ford's here than Ford made!!". Like Kentucky long Rifles, Rare WWII German metals, Cobra's and 32 Roadsters and 3 Windows!!!!

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Tim is correct as we now live in a world of massive deception at all levels.

< Ha! >

[JSeery]

Interesting how 200 to 300% of them survived!

[Holeshot]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

we now live in a world of massive deception at all levels.
Got to be careful.

Absolutely 100% true.
No more mirrors on the tops of my shoes.

[Tinker]

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Only two certainties in life. Death and taxes. And one carries beyond death. haha