302 in a 33/34 pickup

[Ron Pilger]

I sold a very nice 33 pickup to a longtime friend. Though it stings a fair bit, this fellow has no flathead experience and has decided he wants to stuff a 302 into the original chassis. Jack does not own or operate a computer so i agreed to posting/posing this question on his behalf: What will the most serious fitting obstacles be in this transformation? Any advice, based on personal experience, (other than please don't do it)? Thx. in advance.

[TJ]

Frankly if he wants to put a later motor in that pickup the small block Chevrolet is easier to fit and cheaper to rebuild. The Chevy has a rear sump pan like the flathead and is shorter in length than the Ford. The Ford has a front sump pan that can interfere with the front crossmember. JMHO

[blucar]

Originally Posted by TJ

Frankly if he wants to put a later motor in that pickup the small block Chevrolet is easier to fit and cheaper to rebuild. The Chevy has a rear sump pan like the flathead and is shorter in length than the Ford. The Ford has a front sump pan that can interfere with the front crossmember. JMHO

Unfortunately I have to agree with TJ's comment about the SBC engine into an early Ford, About the only problem is clearance for the fuel pump which can be solved with an electric pump.
The '54 and later Ford engines are not an easy swap into an early Ford, yes they can be done, they just take longer and cost a bunch of money.
A SBC with decoy valve covers will not be that noticeable to the average person.

[rotorwrench]

Most 302 small blocks are front sump and even the rear sump version still has a relatively deep front. The water pump protrudes forward a good bit with the timing chain cover as do a lot of Ford engines. They are not an easy fit.

An SBC with a short pump and an adapter on the back can even use the old transmission. There are a lot more advantages than the SBF offers for sure. Most want to keep a Ford in a Ford but it's a lot more work.

[Charlie Stephens]

I would have the flathead rebuilt if it was me. If you go for an all out high performance flathead it won't be reliable. A stock one will be reliable. What is wrong with the engine in the truck now?

I am sure you can buy adapters to use the original trans (or better yet a rebuilt '39 trans) but I am not sure about the length. If he wants an automatic or later transmission you need to cut up or remove the X member. Then you have to build mounts for the brake and clutch. Of course it will need to be converted to open drive if the transmission is updated.

Remember new engine mounts and a reworked radiator.

How big is your friends pocketbook and how does he intend to use the truck?

Be sure to post your question on HAMB, that is where the experts are for this type of change.

Charlie Stephens

[Seth Swoboda]

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I don't mean to be a smart ass, but what is so hard about a flathead V8 engine? I think they are fairly simple and straight forward.

[revkev6]

as stated above, chevy is much easier... there's a reason they are popular.



when I was a kid we put a 302 in my mothers model A sedan. required a cutout in the firewall, bronco oil pan. ran a c4 so we put a tube trans mount in it... this meant going to a 4 bar or hairpins or splitting wishbones...



it really depends on what he wants to do and how stock the truck is currently. a couple flathead books in the bathroom is a hell of a lot less time and money than an engine swap!!!

[JSeery]

As others have posted, a SBC is just about a bolt-in and can easily be reversed in the future if anyone wants to install the flathead again. There are a lot of 302 Fords in early cars (I have one) but it is not an easy install, normally requires cutting the firewall, tie-rod clearance issues, etc.

[jimTN]

A 85hp 221 will run as fast as the brakes (even hyd), steering and shocks will handle and plenty fast enough to keep up with traffic (with a 3:78 rear) and fast enough to kill you. If you want to butcher something, cut an stovebolt PU up, they are cheaper than good Ford tin.

[mfirth]

Here is another vote to keep the flathead.

[waterboychuck]

I'm not sure of this but are the frame rails boxed on 33/34 pickup? If not he would have to do that prior to installing a SBC

[JSeery]

It would depend on how you intend to drive it and how big (Cubic Inches) an engine you use. A flathead has a lot of torque and the SBC wouldn't be much different if it is a smaller size and somewhat stock. Especially if you are running the stock transmission and rear axle. I wouldn't box it if it was me. Thousands and thousands of them were done in days gone by.

[skidmarks]

You dont need to box the frame for the chevy motor, and if you adapt the Chevy to the ford transmission it will be the easiest way to change it back to stock . It can be done without butchering anything.

Early chevy trucks are harder to find in good shape then fords for a number of reasons.
I would love to find one of those cheap plentiful 37 or 38 chevy pickups

[TJ]

I know I mentioned using the Chevy motor, but why not put a good used 8BA in the pickup. The 8BA is probably as simple to work on as the Chevy. Might even find a rebuilt one from an abandoned project.

[paul2748]

There are a lot of builders that have put small block Fords in 33's. It might take a little more to do it, but it fits with the right combination of parts..


You know what Henry said

[Ol' Ron]

The biggest problem you'll have with the chevy swap, is replacing all the transmissions ans axles he'll break. Then he can change the drive train as well. We learned that 50 years ago.

[Ron Pilger]

Some great perspectives. Each and every comment will be printed out and forwarded. The depth of knowledge on this site never ceases to impress and even amaze.

[Ford Freak]

I would find a good 49 - 53 Ford or Mercury flatty for it .

[Flathead Fever]

Like Ron said a 302 will wipe the teeth right off an early Ford trans. My dad had a '32 3-window with a completely stock "265" Chevy coupled to a '39 trans. That 265 eliminated 2nd gear, never to be heard from again. It turned the trans into a wide-ratio 2-speed. A 302 Ford will have even more torque.

I don't understand the flathead fear? Its the same as any other engine except no pushrods and rocker arms. Plus, no valve cover gaskets to leak. There is nothing magic about working on a flathead. 16-year-old boys were doing it 80-year's ago.

If you were going to rip out the entire flathead drivetrain this was not the pickup to have bought. It is worth more right now than it will be after you pour all that money into putting a '302, new trans, driveshaft, rear end...…… You might as well have started with a frame and the sheet metal because you won't use any of the rest of it.


Small block Chevys and Fords break too! Its not the internals in an engine that leave you broke on the side of the rode. 98% of the time its the stuff on the outside of the engine that quits. The fuel system, ignition system and the parts that the belts rotate. That is not going to change with a 302 Ford. If you maintain those parts on a flathead it will be just as dependable as the 302. The flathead problems you here about are almost always from neglect to maintain these parts. It has nothing to do with it being a flathead. Change the oil, change the coolant, don't let the fuel get old. Do a scheduled tune-up just like you would with the 302. Don't be driving around with a 75-year-old coil and wiring, a 50-year-old fuel pump, a pound of rust in the gas tank and mud in your cooling system and your flathead should be just fine. Those are the problems most people are having with their flatheads.

I here people say all the time, "but I want something I can drive". I'm pretty sure people once drove billions and billions of miles with their flatheads. Then we these people got old they wanted to go back and drive flatheads all over again. If flathead V8s were such junk why would people have kept buying them from 1932 to 1953.

[cas3]

if he's gonna strip out all the original stuff, he might want to put in a battery pack and prius drive train, because if not,...we only got 12 years left ya know

[JSeery]

There is a difference between hot rodders (like myself) and just driving it!

[Newc]

Agree with the work to keep a flatmotor, however if he must change think of a nice 4.2 GM v6, all you need today. And go to our cousin HAMB for advice ect. Newc

[Lawrie]

I fitted a 99a engine into my 33,fitted straight in ,used a 4in crank, stock cam and 97 carb, it will run all day at 50-55 mph pulling a caravan ,by all day I mean a 7000klm trip out to Ayers rock and back,look up where that is,
I dont know how good it would go if I did not pull the caravan but I bet with a 3.25 rear it would go great,not as good a an OHV engine ,but way good enough for me.
Lawrie

[Ol' Ron]

Lawrie, my stock 280 in my truck is another example of just what you can expect from a well built Flathead. This former 276 street rod engine was converted back to stock with a .020" over bore new Egge pistons stock EAB cam 2GC carb abd a Chevy dist by Richard, Coupled to a T-170 trans and Spicer 44A 3.73 rear, It will cruise down the road at 70 and climb most hills in Vermont in OD, I personally think converting it to an engine management system. would make it the perfect street engine. Truck weighs 3800 lbs and ya can't break anything.

[34pickup]

I own a 32 Ford that has a 302 in it. They are too long and you need to cut the firewall back and use an electric fan. Looks awful. As everyone else has said, the Chevy is a better choice actually, or a Buick.

[skidmarks]

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Busting transmissions and rears is teenager stuff. I drove a 40 ford everyday with a chevy adapted to the stock driveline and never broke a transmission or rear axle and I drove it the same way as I would if it had a flathead.....like a normal person.

The tire burning A-hole is TV make believe.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by Ford Freak

I would find a good 49 - 53 Ford or Mercury flatty for it .

Be sure to search the archives about the later engines versus the pre '48 engines. I can remember reading a lot about them being difficult to install.

Charrlie Stephen

[TJ]

Originally Posted by cas3

if he's gonna strip out all the original stuff, he might want to put in a battery pack and prius drive train, because if not,...we only got 12 years left ya know

roflmao!

[19Fordy]

Please don't install a V-6 or a 302.
It will destroy the value of your car, unless it's a rat rod.
In that case, it's already devalued.

[bobH]

Originally Posted by Ron Pilger

I sold a very nice 33 pickup to a longtime friend. Though it stings a fair bit, this fellow has no flathead experience and has decided he wants to stuff a 302 into the original chassis. Jack does not own or operate a computer so i agreed to posting/posing this question on his behalf: What will the most serious fitting obstacles be in this transformation? Any advice, based on personal experience, (other than please don't do it)? Thx. in advance.

Many years ago, I did a 289 conversion, and I assume the 302 is about the same. From my vague memory, I don't recall problems, just 'stuff' to deal with. I never butchered the firewall, just a gentle push with a portapower. Not even visible, when done. As for the front, pulleys and belts, I found stuff in the junkyard that enabled the 'so-called' length problem. In other words, I didn't have a length problem, with the 'right parts'. This was back at a time when the junk yards were full of 60's ford products to pick off of, and I have no idea what I used. I recall exhaust and steering interference, and I searched for exhaust manifolds that were more friendly. I did a steering modification. And, I made the oil filter work, but, in the end, I remoted the oil filter after the first oil change.
I made my own bracket to relocate the alternator.
I liked the result. I've read that the SBF is lighter than the SBC, and I appreciated that. And, the SBF rev's freely, so having very low gears in the car meant that the engine was happy running at a higher rpm.
I eventually removed some spring leaves, to get the springs working with less weight.
Just opinion and long-ago experience.


(BTW, I once did a SBC conversion in a 33/34, with 39 trans, and did that same 'trick' with the porta-power. Just a small push, which is not visible. No firewall mods.)

[Karl]

Originally Posted by cas3

if he's gonna strip out all the original stuff, he might want to put in a battery pack and prius drive train, because if not,...we only got 12 years left ya know

I know you are joking but I also see your point, Why we are there lets change the body to make it more streamlined and lets not forget a more comfortable modern interior . Make sure you leave the FORD badge on the front so that people know its a ford

Ok each to their own I'll shut up now.....

[Dodge]

We have a small block Ford in a 34 Pickup. It has 380,000 miles on it with that combination. To shorten the combination and not have to cut the firewall use a late model
5.0 and either get an explorer motor or use the explorer front dress. The timing cover,
water pump and dampner. It shortens the motor up quite a bit.
We are running the 5.0 with a T-5 and nine inch Ford rear end.
Great combination.
I can't figure out how to post pictures, but I can email or text them to you.

[Henry Floored]

[QUOTE=Dodge;1734104]We have a small block Ford in a 34 Pickup. It has 380,000 miles on it with that combination. To shorten the combination and not have to cut the firewall use a late model
5.0 and either get an explorer motor or use the explorer front dress. The timing cover,
water pump and dampner. It shortens the motor up quite a bit.
We are running the 5.0 with a T-5 and nine inch Ford rear end.
Great combination.
I can't figure out how to post pictures, but I can email or text them to you.[/QUOTE

Did someone forget to tell you a Ford in a Ford swap can’t be done?

[Henry Floored]

Explorer timing cover and water pump is the way to go gang. They used this setup on Mustangs, Thunderbirds and Cougars of the same vintage. Only caveat is you must run an electric fuel pump because the the fuel pump drive being eliminated is where Ford saved nearly 2” of engine length. Ford literally made millions of these 5.0’s shorties so getting them new or used should be no problem.

Same with a rear sump oil pan. Millions of them too and the OP’s friend probably already has a rear sump pan because Ford hasn’t made a front sump 302 since 1979.

The 302 Ford WILL be much lighter than the chubby and you WON’T have distributor to firewall problems.

If your easier to access than a chevrolet oil filter gets too close to the frame rail there is a 90 degree adapter for less than $50 with which you can swing your filter away from the frame, engine mount and exhaust manifold.

Things have changed since 1955 fellas. We don’t have to keep committing the same sins of the past.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Dodge

We have a small block Ford in a 34 Pickup. It has 380,000 miles on it with that combination. To shorten the combination and not have to cut the firewall use a late model
5.0 and either get an explorer motor or use the explorer front dress. The timing cover,
water pump and dampner. It shortens the motor up quite a bit.
We are running the 5.0 with a T-5 and nine inch Ford rear end.
Great combination.
I can't figure out how to post pictures, but I can email or text them to you.

P.S. go to Postimages.com. Your pictures can be pulled over from there and simply choose the “hot links for forums” option after you download the pictures you want. Paste them right here and you’ll be fine.

[Ironrod]

Interesting and informative thread. If your looking for some torque, I installed a 351 W in my 1937 Tudor and it was a bit of a challenge. A 351 W will cause one to think and plan ahead for sure.
If I were doing a pickup using todays engine's, I would try using a ford eco boost 4 cylinder. Small overall size and they have plenty of HP and Torque.

[rotorwrench]

A lot of this Ford in a Ford talk doesn't mention what has to be done to the frame, rear drive, and front wishbone. Any of them can be made to fit but it is still a lot of work. It's also not a traditional hot rod. It's a modern monkey motion street rod.


I'll stick with the original small block, the flathead V8. What can be easier than that? Just repair what needs to be repaired.

[joe 1950]

when I go to car shows I wont even vote for anyone who destroys a ford with a sbc in It keep the flatty they can be made to make good H/P and look great easy to fix when needed and you will still be money ahead

[joe 1950]

great looking car and swap Henry Floored

[JSeery]

Sure you can put a Ford in a Ford, I have done it many times! I have several 5.0s in early Fords, a 5.0 FI in a Focus, and 351W in a Focus and a 460 in a 65 Comet. But the issue is it is not a simple drop in by any stretch and it does damage the vehicle in the process. I am NOT a Chevy fan in anything, including a Chevy! But if you want a simple install and little to no modification to the car/truck it is going into, a SBC is the way to go. If it is a nice vehicle that someone might want to restore back to a flathead at some future date, a Ford engine is not the way to go. My point is it should stay a flathead, if than is not going to happen the next best solution is to install a SBC. If it is forever going to be a Street Rod then install whatever, my selection in that case would be a SBF.

[estout81]

I put a 289 Ford engine in a '40 Ford back in the '60's. Didn't alter the body or frame. This was before all the after market came to the rescue! It's not that hard. Oh, I had a 283 Chevy in it before.

[34pickup]

I love hot rods. I have a 32 coupe with a 302 in it, a 34 pickup with a 348 chevy in it and another car with a bowtie on the title. But I also love original cars, like the 48 coupe I have. But...I usually go over to the HAMB to discuss hot rods and come here to read and discuss ORIGINAL Fords. Just sayin'............

[Ron Pilger]

I’ve printed every comment and have dropped them in the snail-mail box. Jacks decision now based on variety of thoughts expressed. Thx.

[2ndgeer]

It's amazing how many folks have opinions without actual experience. I put a 302 Ford in my 1934 pickup. I did NOT cut the firewall. I even used the mechanical fan. The secret was a Snow-White (Fresno CA) Opel water pump kit to replace the stock Ford water pump. I added a C4 auto trans so the saddle in the frame was modified. I had air conditioning. The problem with 34 Ford commercial vehicles is the sloping grille shell and the condenser for the AC was a very tight (poor) fit. As a "pure" Ford man ( originally I had a 307 Chevy and a 39 Ford trans) I wanted the truck to be ALL Ford. It is now because I replaced the 302 with a built flathead.
.

[vulture]

As said the 289 302 fits nicely with the correct parts. I have put a few into the early fords and used a mechanical fan.
My list of parts are from the ford motor sport book . This would be the the short water pump and pullies . I also used the 90 degree adapter for the oil filter and even use the shorty headers they offer.
The other parts I use come from early bronco 1966 to 1977 and that would be a oil pan and smog bracket . The smog bracket will locate your alt very low on the passenger side to clean up the engine bay.

[skidmarks]

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Does the guy want to just adapt a chevy motor and leave everything else stock or build a street rod?

You can use the 302 with all the right pieces you round up and you can buy a short water pump stick shift 283 and drop it in or buy a 239 out of a 48 to 52 truck and drop it in.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by 2ndgeer

It's amazing how many folks have opinions without actual experience. I put a 302 Ford in my 1934 pickup. I did NOT cut the firewall. I even used the mechanical fan. The secret was a Snow-White (Fresno CA) Opel water pump kit to replace the stock Ford water pump. I added a C4 auto trans so the saddle in the frame was modified. I had air conditioning. The problem with 34 Ford commercial vehicles is the sloping grille shell and the condenser for the AC was a very tight (poor) fit. As a "pure" Ford man ( originally I had a 307 Chevy and a 39 Ford trans) I wanted the truck to be ALL Ford. It is now because I replaced the 302 with a built flathead.
.

Maybe you missed the point in a lot of the post. Don't believe you could pull your 302 installation and install a flathead to get it back to stock. No one is implying you can't install a Ford small block in any early Ford. I have done in many times as have thousands of others. The suggestions were for an installation that required virtually no modifications to the original vehicle which could not easily be undone.

Nice install by the way!

[Flathead Fever]

Something else to consider is some of the reliability runs and nostalgia events are limiting the entries to having 1953 or earlier engines like flatheads and early overheads such as Cads and Olds engines.

[bobH]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Maybe you missed the point in a lot of the post. Don't believe you could pull your 302 installation and install a flathead to get it back to stock. No one is implying you can't install a Ford small block in any early Ford. I have done in many times as have thousands of others. The suggestions were for an installation that required virtually no modifications to the original vehicle which could not easily be undone.

Nice install by the way!

A man after my heart. When I've done one of these 'half-breeds', I've always lived by the philosophy of putting it in, with NO modifications that can't be removed easily, leaving NO evidence. NO cutting, NO welding, NO hole-drilling. So, the original engine can go back in, and no butchery will remain.
Just opinion, my way of doing it.




flathead fever makes a good point... there is a run in my area that has this rule. Although, the rule gets 'bent' a little, if you have a hood covering up the engine, sometimes, they will let the rule slide. (especially if you are buddies with the organizers.)

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by bobH

A man after my heart. When I've done one of these 'half-breeds', I've always lived by the philosophy of putting it in, with NO modifications that can't be removed easily, leaving NO evidence. NO cutting, NO welding, NO hole-drilling. So, the original engine can go back in, and no butchery will remain.
Just opinion, my way of doing it.




flathead fever makes a good point... there is a run in my area that has this rule. Although, the rule gets 'bent' a little, if you have a hood covering up the engine, sometimes, they will let the rule slide. (especially if you are buddies with the organizers.)

I don’t think you guys realize that the small block Ford swap described earlier does not require cutting either providing you adapt the engine to the early trans just like any other installation.

There are trans adapters available to do this. I have one and saw not one but two at the Billetproof swap meet at Don Garlits’ last week.

The 1935 -1940 Fords require a deep front crossmember. No cutting there either just grinding out of the rivits. Done correctly the original cross member can be reinstalled with factory type rivits.

[Apperloo]

Walking thru a cruise-in yesterday and spotted this rod with a Detroit diesel .......
I prefer all stock, but she was a beaut.