'30 AA Will Not Start - Ideas Appreciated!!

[30AAFord]

I have a '30 AA that I've been resurrecting for the last 8 months and it will not start. It had sat outside for the better part of the last 15 years when I got it and I've been systematically going through it. I went to fire the engine for the first time this weekend and it will not start. I've been around Model As for over 40 years and own 5 of them - have not had a problem like this before and I'm stumped. What's been done:

1. All new ignition system - EVERYTHING new (ammeter, ignition switch, ignition cable, terminal box wiring, coil, coil wire, plugs, plug wires, starter cable, ground strap, rebuilt starter, rebuilt generator, cutout, modern style upper distributor plate)

2. Timing set using test light on breaker arm. Point gap set at .020, spark plugs gapped at .035. Good spark at plugs and coil wire

3. Good compression (don't have a gauge, but did the "thumb test and it passed)

After a day and a half of working at it, it still will not start. Lot of flooding - a LOT - but no fire. I swapped out intakes (suspecting a possible leak - when I pulled manifold off there was a TON of raw fuel in every port), no change. I swapped out carbs (tried two known good ones off running vehicles), no change. I swapped out plugs, no change. Rechecked timing, no change.

I'm getting some coughs and puffs (but only when I open the throttle all the way while cranking - choking really has no effect), some backfiring out of the carb and obviously a lot of flooding. Am now spinning her with a 12-volt while all my 6-volts recharge. Using fresh gas, but am thinking of trying a bypass tank to rule out anything contaminating the gas in the main tank.

I'm really at a loss of what to check next. Any and all ideas are much appreciated.

[1930artdeco]

Doesn't sound like the tank is an issue as you have fuel in all the ports. Here are two ideas of mine. Bad ground (does she crank slowly over?), or a ground in the distributor body somewhere.

Just my thoughts....

Mike

[30AAFord]

Mike - I'll check those grounds, but is cranking at normal speed - it's just not firing (other than some pops and puffs). Bypass tank was to rule out anything contaminating the fuel (like water).

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

I would suggest a leak down test, first, to see if everything's healthy. They're available from Harbor Freight, or maybe you could borrow one?
Bill W.

[wmws]

You didn't mention if you have spark at the plugs. If you do then all that gas is certainly an issue. Why so much gas if you tried different carbs. I would take the plugs out and spin the engine over to clear all that gas. Then try to start it with no or very little choke.

[Tony Hillyard]

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I had a similar thing problem recently on a 1932 sleeve valve Panhard. I set up everything as you have. Plus there was crud in the fuel line, I blew that out with an airline. The back fire was tracked down to the timing being 180 degrees out.

I therefore put a temporary fuel tank up high also by-pass the fuel pump (just in case), cleaned out the carbs, re-set the ignition timing and away she went.

I hope that might give you hope.

[SeaSlugs]

Agreed, leak down test takes 10 Minutes and tells you everything about the inside of the engine.

Only 4 things needed to make an engine fire: Fuel, air, compression, spark. it sounds like you have all 4 but it also needs to be in time.

How are you setting the timing? Are you sure the cam and crank gear are correctly timed?

Is the spark a nice big blue spark that can jump 1/4"?

Did you have the exhaust manifold and intake manifold decked together? Popping and backfiring out of the carb generally means a bit too lean or vacuum leak somewhere.

FYI if a bad ground is suspected(i dont believe thats the case here) use a big jumper cable (like to jumpstart cars) from a head nut to the frame rail.


I would do a leak down test asap. If the headgasket isnt sealing or valves stuck open (you did say it sat outside...) or mouse nest debris jamming things up...

[tbirdtbird]

It surely does NOT sound like a fuel problem; well, yes it does temporarily ie too much choke

"You didn't mention if you have spark at the plugs"

I'll second that.

If you do, and with all that fuel, your ignition timing or valve timing has to be way off. Back to basics. Does the timing pin properly locate? Cam gear could be wrongly indexed on the locating dowels; or dizzy could somehow be 180 out. We have seen all of this on the Barn

OK SeaSlugs types faster.....

[Tom Wesenberg]

When the timing pin drops into the cam gear dimple your rotor should be in this exact position.

[larrys40]

Logical path troubleshooting is the key. I know you said you did a thumb compression test but I would not put a lot of faith in that at the moment. You can have a stuck valve which could be an issue and give you a false "quick thumb test" and cause hard starting.

I would suggest you remove the plugs. Set the timing to where the pin drops in, then take a look in cylinder #1 with a flashlight and make sure #1 piston is at the top. If so that confirms your timing gears is correct. At that point make sure your ignition is timed properly as Tom indicated.

Then do a compression test on all cylinders with a bonified compression gauge. Should be about 55 lbs. If less or very low you may have an issue to fix.
Make sure your manifolds are OK and the intake isn't cracked/broken, etc.

once the compression of the engine is verified it should start with the proper amount of spark and fuel at the precise time. That's what it is about.
Every year our St. Louis club does a start up party where we take a car that hasn't run in many years. It's always a blast and we are 24 for 24 ( years).

check out the above and let us know. I'm confident that if your compression is good ( has to be enough to suck fuel to the cylinders) and spark is good and timed properly that you will get it running. These are fun events for sure and rewarding when you get it going. Keep us posted!
Larry Shepard

[30AAFord]

Yes - good spark at plugs (both jumping at the wire when disconnected and across the electrode when laid on the block). Should have been more clear above when I said "good spark at plugs and coil wire."

Head was removed during refurbishment and valves checked (#1 exhaust had been stuck and I freed it up). Valve galley was cleaned and water galleys blown out. Head was reinstalled with new head gasket and torqued to 55 ft lbs. (have not had her running, so no opportunity for a re-torque yet). No mouse nests or obstructions and all valves functioning.

Will have to see if someone I know has leak test stuff.

Tom my rotor alignment is close, but not exactly like your picture. When my timing pin drops in, the #1 contact in the distributor lines up with the exact middle of the brass tab on the rotor (yours appears to line up with the left edge of the brass tab). Are you saying the alignment should be to that edge?

[Flathead]

Yes, Fuel, Air, Spark, Compression. And also has to all happen at the right time. Very important and often overlooked. I can still remember the Shop Teacher beating that into our heads.

[30AAFord]

Should note that when I swapped the manifold out (yes, they are decked together), before I installed the carburetor, I held my hand to the intake and hit the starter button - it had very good suction.

[Flathead]

Sight unseen it sounds like timing is off. These situations are real frustrating, just gotta hang in there.

[tbirdtbird]

"Tom my rotor alignment is close, but not exactly like your picture. When my timing pin drops in, the #1 contact in the distributor lines up with the exact middle of the brass tab on the rotor (yours appears to line up with the left edge of the brass tab). Are you saying the alignment should be to that edge?"

Yes to the edge as shown.

When pin drops in verify #1 is at TDC using flashlite?

Leak down is a great test; but I'd try compression test first since it is easier. If that is NG, then go to leak down

[Tom Wesenberg]

Sounds like you have just a little retarded timing, but it should be close enough to start and run. You can loosen the distributor cam screw and move the rotor a few degrees CCW, then tighten the screw and see if the edge of the rotor lines up as in my picture.

Always try to lightly turn the rotor clockwise to take up any slack, then see if it lines up as in the picture. Remember, the spark lever can give 40* spark advance, and you only need 30* tops, so even if your timing is a bit retarded, it should still work.

[Synchro909]

I recently had an engine lose its timing. It was running fine, then coughed once and stopped. I eventually found that the rotor button was faulty from new. The little lug on the inside that locates in the groove in the cam was almost non existent. That allowed the rotor to move on the shaft and timing was lost.
Also, are you setting the timing by moving the cam clockwise?
I'm assuming the cap and rotor are OK. Maybe try replacing all of the ignition system (including distributor) with one known to be good. If your troubles don't change, you can be pretty sure fuel is the problem - or cam timing at the gears.
Please let us know what you find when it is going.

[Pinesdune]

Just a note, how's the battery you're using to crank it, if it's not up to snuff, when you're cranking the engine over, there may be too much draw from the starting system to give you good enough spark, try throwing a charger on it while you crank to give it a little more juice. Just an idea. But follow everyone else's ideas on timing first. Good luck


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[30AAFord]

Gentlemen,

Will work through the suggestions and report back - won't be before Friday (have that day off).

Tom, I agree with you - I would think with the rotor being only that far off, she would have at least started. Will reset and try it again however.

Have been keeping a battery charger on the 6-volts as I tried starting, but eventually went to a 12-volt because the 6-volts were so depleted that the charger wasn't helping that much.

[SeaSlugs]

if your getting spark while cranking I would think the battery is ok. I would be 100% sure you are at tdc on compression stroke before doing anything. I heard there was a bad batch of timing gears with the dimple in the wrong spot from the 70s that could still be floating around so verify the pin drops in at tdc.