The Ford Barn

Chris · 10-20-2016, 10:20 AM

Hey gang, I have a problem that has me scratching my head. It is in regards to the 6V charging system on my 1953 Sunliner. I will tell the whole story, if anyone has any suggestions or sees something I overlooked, please let me know. We are going on one last V8 tour this weekend and I'm trying to get it sorted out.

My 53 had a great working charging system. It is all stock, 6V pos ground. My generator worked fine for the last year, but the bearing made a "squeak" noise so I swapped it with a rebuilt generator I had from who knows where. It also charged fine, however a few weeks back I took it on an out of town trip and the charging system quite working. Would run on discharge and drain battery while running. I got the car home and I replaced the generator with the one originally on the car. Still showed a discharge so I replaced the regulator with a new one. Now the amp gauge sits at zero...neither charge or discharge. Flick the lights on and it drops a sec then right back up to zero. I thought maybe the battery was fully charged, but I have never had a car where the needle sits at zero. So I drove it around with the lights on and sure it enough, it was running the battery down. Still sits at zero, lights on or off, it does not matter.

Thinking I had a bad regulator, I took the one off my 46 Ford which worked perfect, and same result. So, I took the field wire off and held on the Battery post on regulator and it charges. The more it revs, the more it charges. So I know the generator is working.

I figured it is the regulator, but this regulator works fine on the other car. YES- I polarized both regulators by touching Fld to Bat on regulator. I really cannot see how it is the regulator, but what else could it be? Could I have a wiring problem? I will admit I know VERY LITTLE on charging systems.

It has me scratching my head. Took it on a 50 mile drive last night, heater and head lights on, amp gauge sits at zero- neither charge or discharge. Got car home and it would barley crank over.

Has anyone had this problem? To sum up, I have proven the generator works, and have a known working regulator. I can disconnect battery while it's running and it stays running. so it is charging but just barley. Why won't it charge enough?

This is the amp gauge while driving with lights and heater on.

And this is it when I connect Field wire to Battery wire and rev it. If you click on it you can watch the video

petehoovie · 10-20-2016, 10:33 AM

Possibly a wiring error at Generator or Regulator? Field and Arm wires reversed?....

sidevalve8ba · 10-20-2016, 10:51 AM

I'm not sure about the charging problem but I hope your temperature gauge is wrong.

Seth Swoboda · 10-20-2016, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidevalve8ba

I'm not sure about the charging problem but I hope your temperature gauge is wrong.

His temperature gauge looks to be where every stock temp gauge on every V8 I've seen sits at normal operating temperature.

tubman · 10-20-2016, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

His temperature gauge looks to be where every stock temp gauge on every V8 I've seen sits at normal operating temperature.

Not my '51; it sits at about 3/8 on the gauge, right in the middle of the "Normal" band. Are we looking at the same picture?

sidevalve8ba · 10-20-2016, 11:26 AM

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In that first photo it looks like it is pegged to me. Right up against the "H".

Seth Swoboda · 10-20-2016, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tubman

Not my '51; it sits at about 3/8 on the gauge, right in the middle of the "Normal" band. Are we looking at the same picture?

Same photo. I run a mechanical gauge and locate it under the dash on two of my flathead engines. The dash gauge will be pegged at H and the mechanical will indicate 190. I have never thought these Ford gauges to be deadly accurate. Anyway, were getting off topic from Chris's original question and I apologize.

Chris · 10-20-2016, 12:07 PM

Yes temp gauge is disconnected I have dual mechanical gauges under dash

corvette8n · 10-20-2016, 12:19 PM

You probably need to polarize your generator
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...erator.256038/

solidaxle · 10-20-2016, 12:20 PM

Run a temporary ground wire directly to the battery from the regulator case, see if that clears it up.

Chris · 10-20-2016, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corvette8n

You probably need to polarize your generator
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...erator.256038/

That was the first thing I did

Chris · 10-20-2016, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solidaxle

Run a temporary ground wire directly to the battery from the regulator case, see if that clears it up.

This is a great idea, I will try this when I get home

flatheadmurre · 10-20-2016, 03:24 PM

How about checking the voltage to make sure if it is charging and to what degree ?

rotorwrench · 10-20-2016, 04:25 PM

The old Ford products used an induction type current flow meter. If the battery is fully charged, it is usually indicating a base line charge in the middle of the meter. After starting or with a marginally low battery, it will indicate on the charge side until the battery is fully charged. If the vehicle has the lights or an accessory working in the on position prior to start, it will indicate discharge until the engine is fired up and the generator comes back on line. It may show a charge for a bit but generally goes back to the mid line if the battery is in good shape. If the system is taxed by a lot of lights and accessories all at the same time, it will swing toward the charge side due to the amount of current flow in the main bus wire.

They would have been better off with a volt meter but that was not to be. System voltage should be around 7.1 volts when conditions are right and the system is charging normally. Generators like a little rpm to get going but they also don't like too much rpm either.

flatheadmurre · 10-20-2016, 05:27 PM

Loads hooked up correctly to the post under the dash shouldn´t affect the meter if im not completely wrong...meter should be between loads and battery only showing what goes in or out of the battery and not what is used by loads.

Chris · 10-20-2016, 08:23 PM

I'm pretty dumb when it comes with this kind of stuff, so bear with me. I tested the battery with a multi meter and it read just above 6 volts before I started it

Then I started the car, and at idle it shows about 7.5 volts

So maybe it is working fine and I'm just kind of dumb? The needle still sits at zero, before it always read above zero in the gauge...maybe it had an overcharge problem?

Ross F-1 · 10-20-2016, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

Loads hooked up correctly to the post under the dash shouldn´t affect the meter if im not completely wrong...meter should be between loads and battery only showing what goes in or out of the battery and not what is used by loads.

Correct!

Is it possible your starter doesn't like the heat? In other words, it will "barely crank" after a good run because of a starter problem?

The thing to check would be what your battery's voltage is after a good run like that, as well as with the engine running at 1500 RPM.

Jack E/NJ · 10-21-2016, 05:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by solidaxle

Run a temporary ground wire directly to the battery from the regulator case, see if that clears it up.

This is a great idea, I will try this when I get home

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

This is a great idea, I will try this when I get home

So did you try this when you got home? BTW, the battery voltages look really healthy both running & not running.

Jack E/NJ

deuce_roadster · 10-21-2016, 07:02 PM

Every time I trouble shoot an electrical problem, I start with the battery. (load test) Have you tried it with a known good battery like the battery out of the 46?

koates · 10-21-2016, 07:03 PM

Chris, With the engine running and revved up to 2000 rpm for a couple of minutes your voltage should read around 7.5 to 7.7 volts. You tested at engine idle speed (500 rpm ?) which at that speed the generator would not be charging the battery. Even so your 7.46 volts reading would seem to be fairly correct. Someone suggested a voltage reading of 7.1 volts which is too low at driving speeds of around 2000 rpm or so. I would normally adjust voltage regulators at 7.7 volts with about 6 to 8 amps charging current flowing on my test meters. That is the normal recommended setting for a 6 volt system. Current control setting on regulator should be set at 30 to 33 amps on your type Ford generator. An automotive volt-ammeter with adjustable rheostat analogue test set is the correct instrument for all charging system tests. Regards, Kevin.

10-20-2016, 10:20 AM	#1
Chris Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 2,976	I need help- starnge charging problem Hey gang, I have a problem that has me scratching my head. It is in regards to the 6V charging system on my 1953 Sunliner. I will tell the whole story, if anyone has any suggestions or sees something I overlooked, please let me know. We are going on one last V8 tour this weekend and I'm trying to get it sorted out. My 53 had a great working charging system. It is all stock, 6V pos ground. My generator worked fine for the last year, but the bearing made a "squeak" noise so I swapped it with a rebuilt generator I had from who knows where. It also charged fine, however a few weeks back I took it on an out of town trip and the charging system quite working. Would run on discharge and drain battery while running. I got the car home and I replaced the generator with the one originally on the car. Still showed a discharge so I replaced the regulator with a new one. Now the amp gauge sits at zero...neither charge or discharge. Flick the lights on and it drops a sec then right back up to zero. I thought maybe the battery was fully charged, but I have never had a car where the needle sits at zero. So I drove it around with the lights on and sure it enough, it was running the battery down. Still sits at zero, lights on or off, it does not matter. Thinking I had a bad regulator, I took the one off my 46 Ford which worked perfect, and same result. So, I took the field wire off and held on the Battery post on regulator and it charges. The more it revs, the more it charges. So I know the generator is working. I figured it is the regulator, but this regulator works fine on the other car. YES- I polarized both regulators by touching Fld to Bat on regulator. I really cannot see how it is the regulator, but what else could it be? Could I have a wiring problem? I will admit I know VERY LITTLE on charging systems. It has me scratching my head. Took it on a 50 mile drive last night, heater and head lights on, amp gauge sits at zero- neither charge or discharge. Got car home and it would barley crank over. Has anyone had this problem? To sum up, I have proven the generator works, and have a known working regulator. I can disconnect battery while it's running and it stays running. so it is charging but just barley. Why won't it charge enough? This is the amp gauge while driving with lights and heater on. And this is it when I connect Field wire to Battery wire and rev it. If you click on it you can watch the video __________________ Thee Inland Emperors

10-20-2016, 10:33 AM	#2
petehoovie Senior Member Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 8,076	Re: I need help- starnge charging problem Possibly a wiring error at Generator or Regulator? Field and Arm wires reversed?.... __________________ The only thing nice about being imperfect is the joy it brings to others.... *"Silver rings, your butt! Them's washers!"* "We shot our way out of that town for a dollar's worth of steel holes!" - from 'The Wild Bunch' - 1969 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NReUd2_0u0

10-20-2016, 10:51 AM	#3
sidevalve8ba Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Harrisonburg, VA Posts: 841	Re: I need help- starnge charging problem I'm not sure about the charging problem but I hope your temperature gauge is wrong. __________________ The more I learn about new automobiles, the more I value my old ones.

10-20-2016, 11:26 AM	#6
sidevalve8ba Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Harrisonburg, VA Posts: 841	Re: I need help- starnge charging problem Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) In that first photo it looks like it is pegged to me. Right up against the "H". __________________ The more I learn about new automobiles, the more I value my old ones.

10-20-2016, 12:07 PM	#8
Chris Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 2,976	Re: I need help- starnge charging problem Yes temp gauge is disconnected I have dual mechanical gauges under dash __________________ Thee Inland Emperors

10-20-2016, 12:19 PM	#9
corvette8n Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: 36 miles north of Albany NY Posts: 2,944	Re: I need help- starnge charging problem You probably need to polarize your generator http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...erator.256038/

10-20-2016, 12:20 PM	#10
solidaxle Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: upstate NY Posts: 478	Re: I need help- starnge charging problem Run a temporary ground wire directly to the battery from the regulator case, see if that clears it up.

10-20-2016, 03:24 PM	#13
flatheadmurre Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 3,045	Re: I need help- starnge charging problem How about checking the voltage to make sure if it is charging and to what degree ?

10-20-2016, 04:25 PM	#14
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: I need help- starnge charging problem The old Ford products used an induction type current flow meter. If the battery is fully charged, it is usually indicating a base line charge in the middle of the meter. After starting or with a marginally low battery, it will indicate on the charge side until the battery is fully charged. If the vehicle has the lights or an accessory working in the on position prior to start, it will indicate discharge until the engine is fired up and the generator comes back on line. It may show a charge for a bit but generally goes back to the mid line if the battery is in good shape. If the system is taxed by a lot of lights and accessories all at the same time, it will swing toward the charge side due to the amount of current flow in the main bus wire. They would have been better off with a volt meter but that was not to be. System voltage should be around 7.1 volts when conditions are right and the system is charging normally. Generators like a little rpm to get going but they also don't like too much rpm either.

10-20-2016, 05:27 PM	#15
flatheadmurre Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 3,045	Re: I need help- starnge charging problem Loads hooked up correctly to the post under the dash shouldn´t affect the meter if im not completely wrong...meter should be between loads and battery only showing what goes in or out of the battery and not what is used by loads.

10-20-2016, 08:23 PM	#16
Chris Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 2,976	Re: I need help- starnge charging problem I'm pretty dumb when it comes with this kind of stuff, so bear with me. I tested the battery with a multi meter and it read just above 6 volts before I started it Then I started the car, and at idle it shows about 7.5 volts So maybe it is working fine and I'm just kind of dumb? The needle still sits at zero, before it always read above zero in the gauge...maybe it had an overcharge problem? __________________ Thee Inland Emperors

10-21-2016, 07:02 PM	#19
deuce_roadster Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Shelton, WA Posts: 3,799	Re: I need help- starnge charging problem Every time I trouble shoot an electrical problem, I start with the battery. (load test) Have you tried it with a known good battery like the battery out of the 46?

10-21-2016, 07:03 PM	#20
koates Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Melbourne Australia. Posts: 2,078	Re: I need help- starnge charging problem Chris, With the engine running and revved up to 2000 rpm for a couple of minutes your voltage should read around 7.5 to 7.7 volts. You tested at engine idle speed (500 rpm ?) which at that speed the generator would not be charging the battery. Even so your 7.46 volts reading would seem to be fairly correct. Someone suggested a voltage reading of 7.1 volts which is too low at driving speeds of around 2000 rpm or so. I would normally adjust voltage regulators at 7.7 volts with about 6 to 8 amps charging current flowing on my test meters. That is the normal recommended setting for a 6 volt system. Current control setting on regulator should be set at 30 to 33 amps on your type Ford generator. An automotive volt-ammeter with adjustable rheostat analogue test set is the correct instrument for all charging system tests. Regards, Kevin.