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Old 03-03-2020, 12:00 PM   #1
Bob Bidonde
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Default Need Picture of Cutaway Water Jacket

I need a picture of a Model "A" cylinder block with a the water jacket cutaway behind Cylinder 4. The point being made in a presentation I am making is that debris in the coolant collects behind Cylinder 4.
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Old 03-03-2020, 04:26 PM   #2
katy
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Default Re: Need Picture of Cutaway Water Jacket

Try This:
https://secureservercdn.net/45.40.14...ne-2-web-A.jpg

Or: https://model-a-ford.org/resources/t...-the-new-ford/
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Old 03-03-2020, 04:54 PM   #3
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Default Re: Need Picture of Cutaway Water Jacket

Taking this thread in a slightly different direction- Is it worth running a pipe from the radiator outlet to the back of the block?
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Old 03-03-2020, 04:57 PM   #4
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Default Re: Need Picture of Cutaway Water Jacket

Is that what you are looking for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde View Post
I need a picture of a Model "A" cylinder block with a the water jacket cutaway behind Cylinder 4. The point being made in a presentation I am making is that debris in the coolant collects behind Cylinder 4.
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File Type: jpg #4 Cylinder.jpg (45.4 KB, 325 views)
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Old 03-03-2020, 09:23 PM   #5
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Default Re: Need Picture of Cutaway Water Jacket

Best would be to figure out a way to make it a push through system instead of the suck through system.
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Old 03-03-2020, 11:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: Need Picture of Cutaway Water Jacket

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Best would be to figure out a way to make it a push through system instead of the suck through system.
Many race cars use reverse flow cooling.
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Old 03-04-2020, 09:16 PM   #7
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Default Re: Need Picture of Cutaway Water Jacket

Bob, send me an email and I will reply with a couple photos that will help you.

Email to [email protected]

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Old 03-05-2020, 08:46 AM   #8
Bob Bidonde
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Default Re: Need Picture of Cutaway Water Jacket

Thanks all for your help. I will post here the photos I receive. As for tinkering with the coolant flow in the block, I have this idea.
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File Type: jpg Engine Coolant Flow (1).jpg (43.8 KB, 206 views)
File Type: jpg Engine w Relocated Water Inlet.jpg (42.1 KB, 182 views)
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Old 03-05-2020, 02:50 PM   #9
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Default Re: Need Picture of Cutaway Water Jacket

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde View Post
Thanks all for your help. I will post here the photos I receive. As for tinkering with the coolant flow in the block, I have this idea.
Brilliant idea Bob. Is there a Ford Barner prepared to modify a block ? It would be very interesting to record the result of the modification.
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Old 03-05-2020, 03:05 PM   #10
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Default Re: Need Picture of Cutaway Water Jacket

I assume you would have to fab up a water inlet that supplies both block inlets?
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Old 03-05-2020, 03:17 PM   #11
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Default Re: Need Picture of Cutaway Water Jacket

...

Last edited by Pete; 03-07-2020 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 03-05-2020, 04:03 PM   #12
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Default Re: Need Picture of Cutaway Water Jacket

I've heard of people running a 1" hose from the bottom of the radiator to a fitting put on the rear of the block. That sounds like a good idea to me even though there is not much room to the firewall. My cars are drivers so the extra bit of plumbing doesn't worry me.
I think Bob's idea is fine but more work. I think where is the best place to put the fitting will be obvious when we see a cutaway of the water jacket in that area. Surely someone out there has info on this.
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Old 03-06-2020, 09:42 AM   #13
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Default Re: Need Picture of Cutaway Water Jacket

Paul Moller ran a coolant line to the back water jacket in the block. He has an article about in a back issue of the Model "A" News.
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Old 03-06-2020, 11:10 AM   #14
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Default Re: Need Picture of Cutaway Water Jacket

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Old 03-06-2020, 03:06 PM   #15
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Default Re: Need Picture of Cutaway Water Jacket

Great, but Tod needs to seriously look at this one for us un-original type guys....
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Old 03-06-2020, 04:54 PM   #16
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Default Re: Need Picture of Cutaway Water Jacket

Bob, do you know which back issue the Paul Mollar article was in?
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Old 03-06-2020, 09:18 PM   #17
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Default Re: Need Picture of Cutaway Water Jacket

Many years ago I added some cylinder numbers and graphic comments to a cutaway picture from a F.A.S.T. cover photo. Here they are:



I am very interested in the comment from Bob Bidonde regarding Paul Moller, perhaps best known as one of the pioneer Zenith carb guys.

Quit a few years ago I was president of Salt Creek A's, MAFCA, the club that Paul was associated with, but he was a bit before my time. I was, however, close to Howie Taylor, Paul's protege for many years and eventual heir to much of what was Paul's. Never in discussion or looking at engines that Paul had worked on did I ever hear anything concerning his bypass ideas.

Personally I have worked on the engine re-circulation bypass issue for years. Al in NY made a beautiful adaptation of my proposal for such a system, based on the above photo. Perhaps Al in NY will post a photo??

The following was posted here on Fordbarn by me quite a few years ago:

"With no 'stat in place, an A heats evenly and very slow. From an engineering standpoint you want even heating, but a fast rise to an elevated constant running temperature. Ideally a thermostat should have only one, very tiny hole to prevent air entrapment around the sensor element and it should pass no coolant while fully closed.

Since the A has no bypass, adding a stat designed to pass air but not some water when closed will cause the water to be stopped, causing boiling at localized internal hot spots while the bottom of the cylinder water jackets stay relatively cool. The result is an engine that overheats on the top end and in the back by #4 and then 'burps' when the t'stat opens, sometimes through several continuous cycles. Opening that t'stat vent hole, or drilling extras, like many A'ers do, simply allows some water circulation to even out the warm-up. HOWEVER, the water is from the cold radiator and back into the still cool engine, greatly extending the warm-up time.

A bypass from the water area circulating by the t'stat sensor to the back of the engine (bypassing the radiator) makes for a quick, even warmup with no temperature over-spikes or burps. Some modern car 'stats are double valved, the bypass closes as the t'stat opens.

I've toyed with the idea myself, but I believe the ideal return point would be the lower portion of the water jacket behind #4, facing the firewall. The side inlet is a compromise, and at low flow rates the water in the far back will remain somewhat stagnated. In any case, a 3/8 SS tube would probably be ideal."

I hope this helps, and I would be very interested in anything Paul Moller had to say about the subject!
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Old 03-07-2020, 09:34 AM   #18
AL in NY
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Default Re: Need Picture of Cutaway Water Jacket

MikeK; here is a photo of my 3/8 SS bypass tube on my touring engine. As you mentioned, this modification was a result of several email conversations between the two of us as to the best place to put it. The modification has worked great since 2011 and that engine has over 15,000 miles on it with no overheating problems.
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Old 03-07-2020, 10:12 AM   #19
Bob Bidonde
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Default Re: Need Picture of Cutaway Water Jacket

Coolant will flow from a high pressure place to a low pressure place in the path of least resistance, that is from the water inlet to the water pump. The water inlet baffle in the block will not cause coolant to flow backwards to Cylinders 3 & 4.


Mike K, thanks for the photos.
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Old 01-08-2021, 12:16 PM   #20
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Default Re: Need Picture of Cutaway Water Jacket

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde View Post
Coolant will flow from a high pressure place to a low pressure place in the path of least resistance, that is from the water inlet to the water pump. The water inlet baffle in the block will not cause coolant to flow backwards to Cylinders 3 & 4.


Mike K, thanks for the photos.
So if the 3/8" tube option is employed to the block rear, which way is the coolant flowing in that tube when the stat is fully open? When the stat is closed, it does appear from the Ford cooling diagrams that the coolant will circulate from the pump to the rear (counterclockwise) and return, etc. With the deflector /baffle in the block as designed, could there be some short circuiting with the flow at different times in the heating cooling cycle?
Is there any advantage to using a high flow racing type stat?
Also, would drilling a (1/4") rear hole weaken the head stud area in the block ?

Last edited by duke36; 01-08-2021 at 12:29 PM.
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